Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[S:C]

38 minutes ago, ralis said:

Interference by a priesthood that changed primal beliefs i.e, Judeo-Christian monotheism. 

 

38 minutes ago, ralis said:

What were belief systems before that?

Hard to pin point for me. (I don't know.) One thought about Lilith though arises, - not only does she seem to have two storylines: one as Adams first wife, and the older one as the principle of feminine chaotic darkness force and energy including demonic elements, that was forced in essence by the light male principle of rationality, structure and organisation to leave her place in the tree of life, but destroyed it while leaving. That seems to be the general consensus, as far as there is any, hard to come by anyhow. 

This is driving the thread away, would find it harder to see connections to nonduality here.

 

If you say so. Have no idea about that... other than some words I researched, didn't recognize a structure/system/pattern/concept, then again, tibetan language and thought concepts seems rather different anyhow.

Spoiler

If someone would bother to explain this and it's connection to nonduality, I would readily sit and listen, even though especially there I have hesitation to go into great depths. When I start to get into this, I always runaway from reading, don't know why.

38 minutes ago, ralis said:

Dzogchen teachings are universal and timelessness. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by schroedingerscat

[ralis]

23 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

 

Hard to pin point for me. (I don't know.) One thought about Lilith though arises, - not only does she seem to have two storylines: one as Adams first wife, and the older one as the principle of feminine chaotic darkness force and energy including demonic elements, that was forced in essence by the light male principle of rationality, structure and organisation to leave her place in the tree of life, but destroyed it while leaving. That seems to be the general consensus, as far as there is any, hard to come by anyhow. 

This is driving the thread away, would find it harder to see connections to nonduality here.

 

If you say so. Have no idea about that... other than some words I researched, didn't recognize a system/pattern/concept, then again, tibetan language and thought concepts seems rather different anyhow.

 

 

So far in this thread no connections have been made which is typical for this forum. My point is that a split happened, most likely during the Axial Age, that changed belief systems. Judeo-Christian beliefs are not non-dual, but are antagonistic to any notion of non separate existence. Judeo-Christian BS posit a separate existence from divinity where work, penance or other factors are required to garner favor or become unified with a separate divinity/absolute.

 

Space and light are all that exists. Light is what forms the phenomenal world of objects and only exists in the mother of space. The patriarchy/priesthood has been the problem all along with their left brain irrational ideology.

Edited May 15, 2022 by ralis

[dwai]

Synchronicity much? A live session by Swami Sarvapriyananda today, much on this very topic —

 

Is the Swami a DB? 🤔

[ralis]

The so called Western mind wants to rationalize, quantify, and control, for fear of losing  identity or whatever.

Edited May 15, 2022 by ralis

[ralis]

Realizing non-dual is not the end, but the beginning. 

[steve]

More on practice and application if "I" doesn't mind...

 

There are several practices that help to bridge the gap between the dual and nondual. I'll mention a few here. 

 

A common tool in dzogchen but also in some Daoist traditions is to turn the light around, to turn awareness back towards itself.

The practitioner as subject becomes aware of the activity of the subject as an object, eg  the activity of thoughts, feelings, attachment to sensory objects and so forth. The subject then turns attention to observe the observer, itself. This results in the extinguishing or collapse of observer and observed as they are not two (non-dual) and cannot maintain self-observation for very long. This collapse allows the immediacy and freshness of the moment to flood in (come very close to our experience) and there is an opportunity to simply rest here in unfabricated presence.

 

Another tool used in dzogchen practice is exhaustion. We can fill and over-stimulate our awareness through a variety of techniques - difficult physical postures, repetitive or outrageous activity (referred to as rushen practices), or reflection on prior experiences, thoughts, feelings, and so forth until we completely exhaust ourselves. In that exhaustion it becomes easier to simply let go, allowing the self to rest and release. Like coming home from a long and tiring day of work, laying down on the couch and completely letting go. This provides another opportunity  for connecting more fully with the unelaborated presence of being without interference. 

 

Yet another tool is turning the subject towards the absence rather than presence of objects of awareness. For example, rather than focus on the  physical sensations and movement of the body, awareness connects to the underlying stillness which is always present within and surrounding the movement. I've never practiced it but I suspect this is similar to what happens in stillness-movement qigong. With prolonged connection to stillness, awareness gradually loosens itself from the confines of the physical body as object of awareness and an expanded sense of self begins to arise. With time we can more easily connect to more pervasive and less restricted sense of self which becomes a powerful refuge and source of previously untapped and unrecognized potential. Similarly we can connect deeply with the silence that hosts sound (inner voices as well as external sounds) and with the spaciousness and openness of heart and mind. We refer to this as practicing with the 3 Doors of body, speech, and mind. 

 

The common thread in all of these techniques is to reduce the influence and interference that comes from over-identifying with a self that is largely composed of karmic baggage - expectations and admonitions adopted from others, culture, and society, dysfunctional patterns, inaccurate assumptions and beliefs, and so forth. We will never be free of a sense of self and frankly it has great value in our lives on multiple levels. On the other hand it has developed too prominent a role and there is value to putting it in its proper place. At least that's what I get out of these practices. 

 

[steve]

37 minutes ago, ralis said:

So far in this thread no connections have been made which is typical for this forum. My point is that a split happened, most likely during the Axial Age, that changed belief systems. Judeo-Christian beliefs are not non-dual, but are antagonistic to any notion of non separate existence. Judeo-Christian BS posit a separate existence from divinity where work, penance or other factors are required to garner favor or become unified with a separate divinity/absolute.

 

Space and light are all that exists. Light is what forms the phenomenal world of objects and only exists in the mother of space. The patriarchy/priesthood has been the problem all along with their left brain irrational ideology.

 

While mainstream practice and teachings in many religions emphasize the dual perspective, there is a non-dual core at the heart of most. The institution and its administrators benefit from the dualistic perspective but clergy with integrity and grace, and open-minded and discriminating seekers can find empowerment and deep support in many religions if they are fortunate enough to have proper guidance and curiosity. The truth is that the dual perspective needs to be emphasized as the majority of people have no other perspective available to them and not enough time, energy, or interest to pursue these deep and subtle paths. We see this as much in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Daoism as in Abrahamic religions. The masses simply don't dive deep into the esoteric. The mystics in every religion are those who can uncover and share these truths - the Kabbalists, the sufis, the Jesuits, the yogis, and sages for example. I don't think this phenomenon is limited to Judeo-Christian traditions but arguably they have been more affected by politicization and subterfuge. I think this is also related to the differences in the Eastern and Western philosophical trends as well as cultural tendencies (materialism vs collectivism for example).

[ralis]

7 minutes ago, steve said:

More on practice and application if "I" doesn't mind...

 

There are several practices that help to bridge the gap between the dual and nondual. I'll mention a few here. 

 

A common tool in dzogchen but also in some Daoist traditions is to turn the light around, to turn awareness back towards itself.

The practitioner as subject becomes aware of the activity of the subject as an object, eg  the activity of thoughts, feelings, attachment to sensory objects and so forth. The subject then turns attention to observe the observer, itself. This results in the extinguishing or collapse of observer and observed as they are not two (non-dual) and cannot maintain self-observation for very long. This collapse allows the immediacy and freshness of the moment to flood in (come very close to our experience) and there is an opportunity to simply rest here in unfabricated presence.

 

Another tool used in dzogchen practice is exhaustion. We can fill and over-stimulate our awareness through a variety of techniques - difficult physical postures, repetitive or outrageous activity (referred to as rushen practices), or reflection on prior experiences, thoughts, feelings, and so forth until we completely exhaust ourselves. In that exhaustion it becomes easier to simply let go, allowing the self to rest and release. Like coming home from a long and tiring day of work, laying down on the couch and completely letting go. This provides another opportunity  for connecting more fully with the unelaborated presence of being without interference. 

 

Yet another tool is turning the subject towards the absence rather than presence of objects of awareness. For example, rather than focus on the  physical sensations and movement of the body, awareness connects to the underlying stillness which is always present within and surrounding the movement. I've never practiced it but I suspect this is similar to what happens in stillness-movement qigong. With prolonged connection to stillness, awareness gradually loosens itself from the confines of the physical body as object of awareness and an expanded sense of self begins to arise. With time we can more easily connect to more pervasive and less restricted sense of self which becomes a powerful refuge and source of previously untapped and unrecognized potential. Similarly we can connect deeply with the silence that hosts sound (inner voices as well as external sounds) and with the spaciousness and openness of heart and mind. We refer to this as practicing with the 3 Doors of body, speech, and mind. 

 

The common thread in all of these techniques is to reduce the influence and interference that comes from over-identifying with a self that is largely composed of karmic baggage - expectations and admonitions adopted from others, culture, and society, dysfunctional patterns, inaccurate assumptions and beliefs, and so forth. We will never be free of a sense of self and frankly it has great value in our lives on multiple levels. On the other hand it has developed too prominent a role and there is value to putting it in its proper place. At least that's what I get out of these practices. 

 

 

From my experience the concept of spaciousness is limited. The experience of infinite space both within and without is where the Longde or space series is most valuable. Perhaps I am splitting hairs, but after having my concept of space/time utterly destroyed by Norbu way back in 1989, well............

[ralis]

22 minutes ago, steve said:

 

While mainstream practice and teachings in many religions emphasize the dual perspective, there is a non-dual core at the heart of most. The institution and its administrators benefit from the dualistic perspective but clergy with integrity and grace, and open-minded and discriminating seekers can find empowerment and deep support in many religions if they are fortunate enough to have proper guidance and curiosity. The truth is that the dual perspective needs to be emphasized as the majority of people have no other perspective available to them and not enough time, energy, or interest to pursue these deep and subtle paths. We see this as much in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Daoism as in Abrahamic religions. The masses simply don't dive deep into the esoteric. The mystics in every religion are those who can uncover and share these truths - the Kabbalists, the sufis, the Jesuits, the yogis, and sages for example. I don't think this phenomenon is limited to Judeo-Christian traditions but arguably they have been more affected by politicization and subterfuge. I think this is also related to the differences in the Eastern and Western philosophical trends as well as cultural tendencies (materialism vs collectivism for example).

 

Yes, I agree there a few, but rather limited opportunities for primordial teachings in a limited venue. Most teachings are bogged down with cultural baggage, most of are from a compressed patriarchal point of view. Rarely are such teachings given without the need for preliminary BS. Getting plugged in to the real nature of life can be overwhelming! 

 

I think most are really afraid to admit or come to terms as to what primordial realization entails. To be very honest, it scared and terrified me like nothing I had ever encountered. Having discussions from a left brain point of view usually proceeds from non experiential, or my teacher talked about it, or I read about it. This entire discussion for the most part lacks personal experience.

Edited May 15, 2022 by ralis

[dwai]

25 minutes ago, steve said:

More on practice and application if "I" doesn't mind...

 

There are several practices that help to bridge the gap between the dual and nondual. I'll mention a few here. 

 

A common tool in dzogchen but also in some Daoist traditions is to turn the light around, to turn awareness back towards itself.

The practitioner as subject becomes aware of the activity of the subject as an object, eg  the activity of thoughts, feelings, attachment to sensory objects and so forth. The subject then turns attention to observe the observer, itself. This results in the extinguishing or collapse of observer and observed as they are not two (non-dual) and cannot maintain self-observation for very long. This collapse allows the immediacy and freshness of the moment to flood in (come very close to our experience) and there is an opportunity to simply rest here in unfabricated presence.

 

Another tool used in dzogchen practice is exhaustion. We can fill and over-stimulate our awareness through a variety of techniques - difficult physical postures, repetitive or outrageous activity (referred to as rushen practices), or reflection on prior experiences, thoughts, feelings, and so forth until we completely exhaust ourselves. In that exhaustion it becomes easier to simply let go, allowing the self to rest and release. Like coming home from a long and tiring day of work, laying down on the couch and completely letting go. This provides another opportunity  for connecting more fully with the unelaborated presence of being without interference. 

 

Yet another tool is turning the subject towards the absence rather than presence of objects of awareness. For example, rather than focus on the  physical sensations and movement of the body, awareness connects to the underlying stillness which is always present within and surrounding the movement. I've never practiced it but I suspect this is similar to what happens in stillness-movement qigong. With prolonged connection to stillness, awareness gradually loosens itself from the confines of the physical body as object of awareness and an expanded sense of self begins to arise. With time we can more easily connect to more pervasive and less restricted sense of self which becomes a powerful refuge and source of previously untapped and unrecognized potential. Similarly we can connect deeply with the silence that hosts sound (inner voices as well as external sounds) and with the spaciousness and openness of heart and mind. We refer to this as practicing with the 3 Doors of body, speech, and mind. 

 

The common thread in all of these techniques is to reduce the influence and interference that comes from over-identifying with a self that is largely composed of karmic baggage - expectations and admonitions adopted from others, culture, and society, dysfunctional patterns, inaccurate assumptions and beliefs, and so forth. We will never be free of a sense of self and frankly it has great value in our lives on multiple levels. On the other hand it has developed too prominent a role and there is value to putting it in its proper place. At least that's what I get out of these practices. 

 

 

This resonates with me deeply. Thanks for sharing these. It might come as a surprise, but I don't like to dwell in philosophical argumentation either  ... it is a slippery slope into fanning the ego (so I'm watchful of it). So, your idea of exchanging practical tips is most welcome imho.

 

One very direct and simple practice I found useful in the Self-Inquiry mode is to see if one can identify "who am I?" in a fraction of a second before a single thought has arisen. I found this very puzzling at first, and after repeated attempts, the answer was revealed. It is meant to be explored individually by the practitioner (this is a variation of Ramana Maharshi's 'Who am I?' inquiry).

 

Another method I found useful in the earlier days of my practice was to observe the gap between thoughts. If we pay attention to the thoughts rising and falling in the mind, in the gap there is a luminous clarity. One day, after a relatively vigorous yoga session, I lay down in shavasana and melted my entire physical body away, like butter on a hot pan, only paying attention to the thoughts and the gap between thoughts. Suddenly, the thoughts (mind-stream) became like a bunch of debris floating on a river-surface. 

 

The stillness-movement paradigm is also one which has been helpful to me, in tai chi form practice. In standing practice, it leads to deep cessation of the mind (time and space - collapse). In moving practice, it leads to deep ceassation of time and expansion of space (of awareness).

 

My teacher's early instruction to me was, "don't try to eliminate the ego. The ego is necessary for proper functioning in this world. Let the ego become your obedient servant instead of the tyrannical master it is today". 

 

But I must also state that one needs to study the pointers provided by the wisdom traditions (whatever they might be) to allow the mind/intellect to come into alignment. That is required for closing the proverbial loop of this process. 

 

[liminal_luke]

I'm a big propenent of nondual-lite practice.  That's my own term for activities that may not result in nondual awareness, strictly speaking, but edge a practitioner away from dualistic extremes.  To my mind, anything that's perceived as "centering" counts.  Examples would include any kind of creative work (visual art, music making, knitting, crafting, etc), physical exercise and sports, anything that supports the state positive psychologists refer to as "flow."  Mindfulness in general.  Life itself is one big difficult-to-avoid nondual pracitce.  We've all got, as The Beatles might put it, a ticket to ride. 

[steve]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

 

From my experience the concept of spaciousness is limited. The experience of infinite space both within and without is where the Longde or space series is most valuable. Perhaps I am splitting hairs, but after having my concept of space/time utterly destroyed by Norbu way back in 1989, well............

Space as a concept is very interesting to me and it’s unique characteristics make it an ideal metaphor for the base of all. Mother is also a wonderful metaphor especially when taken with child - mother space and child awareness, their union giving rise to the warmth of enlightened qualities like the Four Immeasurables.

 

Space as a meditative experience is even more profound and is a crucial element in the practices and applications. It is heavily emphasized in Bön.

[dawn90]

49 minutes ago, dwai said:

The ego is necessary for proper functioning in this world. Let the ego become your obedient servant instead of the tyrannical master it is today". 

 

It's like tyranny warning you over another one.

[steve]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

 

Yes, I agree there a few, but rather limited opportunities for primordial teachings in a limited venue. Most teachings are bogged down with cultural baggage, most of are from a compressed patriarchal point of view. Rarely are such teachings given without the need for preliminary BS. Getting plugged in to the real nature of life can be overwhelming! 

I think this is why the preliminaries are not total BS. For most people they are at worst helpful and often essential in approaching this very subtle but potentially overwhelming undertaking. Even later, after a good deal of experience, “preliminary” teachings and practices can be a great support. This is part of what the nonlineage nondualists lack that makes them susceptible to disillusionment, as described by Jeff Foster.

 

1 hour ago, ralis said:

 

I think most are really afraid to admit or come to terms as to what primordial realization entails. To be very honest, it scared and terrified me like nothing I had ever encountered. Having discussions from a left brain point of view usually proceeds from non experiential, or my teacher talked about it, or I read about it. This entire discussion for the most part lacks personal experience.

That is precisely why i’m hoping to focus us on practice and application, at least for a while. 

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

 

It's like tyranny warning you over another one.

 

 

[steve]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Let the ego become your obedient servant instead of the tyrannical master it is today". 

 

My ego is no longer a tyrannical master much of the time but more like a drunk friend with OCD than an obedient servant… I’m a work in progress…

[dawn90]

What is a non-dualist without a poor relationship with their father.

 

Probably at least a duelist.

 

So it comes down to that; really.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by dawn90

[steve]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

But I must also state that one needs to study the pointers provided by the wisdom traditions (whatever they might be) to allow the mind/intellect to come into alignment. That is required for closing the proverbial loop of this process. 

 

In our tradition this involves 3 steps -

 

1. Listen carefully to the teachings of a lineage holder with an open heart and open mind. If you don’t understand some things be patient with yourself and remain open to the possibility that at some point it will make more sense.

2. Reflect on the teachings you’ve received until they make sense in your mind and in your practice. Ask for help if needed.

3. Actualize the teachings through personal experience and seeing the signs of fruition, then compare your own experience to what is described in the classic writings of the old masters

 

This brings it full circle and prevents deviation from the path by student and teacher alike. 

[steve]

8 hours ago, schroedingerscat said:

Good call! 

 

Maybe it might be also be interesting to look at the 'effects' of (non-dual) gnosis in the pragmatical matter of fact aspect of life, not only the effects and phenomenons in meditation (like lights, colours and so on). 

 

 

I'd be interested, if there could be found some commonalities of those who entered (non-dual) gnosis. (Day by day seemingly nothing changes, but if you look back, everything is different? Or rather sudden changes or else...)

Did your body change, did you become averse to some, attracted to others? More sensitive, more balanced or the contrary? 

Did you perceive 'energetics' differently than before? Times of many synchronicities and phases where there were none? What patterns are at work there?

 

 

I don’t have time to get into specifics at the moment but I do think there are distinct commonalities that are experienced during and after non-dual gnosis. Of course there are differences also as our experience is more related to what was previously blocking us and no longer present, than it is to the absolute nature itself which cannot be experienced directly. I base this on discussions with meditation masters, other laypeople with non-dual gnosis, and my own experience and studies.

[dwai]

48 minutes ago, steve said:

 

In our tradition this involves 3 steps -

 

1. Listen carefully to the teachings of a lineage holder with an open heart and open mind. If you don’t understand some things be patient with yourself and remain open to the possibility that at some point it will make more sense.

2. Reflect on the teachings you’ve received until they make sense in your mind and in your practice. Ask for help if needed.

3. Actualize the teachings through personal experience and seeing the signs of fruition, then compare your own experience to what is described in the classic writings of the old masters

 

This brings it full circle and prevents deviation from the path by student and teacher alike. 

Exactly the same in Advaita Vedanta as well.  

[dawn90]

You know what I got it.

 

A dualist is a guy with a map.

and the non-dualist doesn't have a map, but is a really good driver.

And together they form the perfect combination where one is supposed to indicate.

And the other gets the job done.

A bit like in rallys.

 

The dualist would be the one with the map. Of course.

On the other hand the non.dualist doesn't have a map but has all the technical skills.

 

The dualist.

He knows where is A.

Where is Z.

And we have to go through here to get it.

The non-dualist can't see that far. But what he does see.

Is all the complexities involved in order to do it.

He's an energy manipulator.

 

He has understanding of the subtleties of the universe he just doesn't know how to discriminate.

 

The dualist he knows what he knows.

He knows the road.

Lets go.

 

There's no need to waste our time on other things.

After all.

The road to heaven is through a narrow road.

It's there.

From the perineum to the top of head.

"Don't waste your time looking over there - it's over here."

They go together. And the non-dualist is able to remove all obstacles that the dualist although skilled isn't nearly as subtle and could get stuck, if the non-dualist wasn't there to help a bit.

 

The road is from A to Z, that we know.

We know how many letters approximitely there is between them. What we don't know is in between.

The unknown; which we can't see.

From A to B, from B to C and so on.

 

We'll have to rely on a non-dualist for that, meanwhile I'll keep your shoulders straight and I'll keep you on course, until we get to Z and into heaven again as a dualist but this time with the spirit of Christ.

 

We've made it buddy - and we set off into the sunset.

 

We started as a dualist. Traveled as a non-dualist.

And finished as a dualist again.

 

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, steve said:

 

I don’t have time to get into specifics at the moment but I do think there are distinct commonalities that are experienced during and after non-dual gnosis. Of course there are differences also as our experience is more related to what was previously blocking us and no longer present, than it is to the absolute nature itself which cannot be experienced directly. I base this on discussions with meditation masters, other laypeople with non-dual gnosis, and my own experience and studies.

I like the perspective that we all have blocks, and as they get removed we approach absolute nature which cannot be experienced directly (what is the difference between experiencing nonduality and experiencing absolute nature?) Perhaps we differ in that I deliberately removed blocks at first, and then later I found the momentum built to a point that it just happens now, wuwei. I’m a big proponent therefore of youwei before wuwei. 
 

I haven’t experienced non-duality but I have experienced ‘non-clinging mind’ for two entire days, thoughts flowing through without any grasping onto them, disentangled from them, and this was a very nice experience. So my sights are set lower, I look forward to this ungrasped thought state being permanent one day. 
 

Re: ego I wonder if self-interest is the problem and other interest the ‘self-realised’ state, as opposed to the neutrality or indifference that I equate with nonduality, at least as it is popularly presented. To fully identify with objects is one thing, but to develop a mind that cannot but care for the welfare of others because the gaze is not entangled with self (and concomitantly to develop the subtle agency to actually do something that can substantially improve another’s welfare) is something else, and I’m not convinced that nondual experience is a necessary part of of this sort of self-development. 
 

Btw this is not a moral stance or a path that I chose, rather it’s the path that I find myself on. 
 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Bindi

[Mark Foote]

Quote

So my sights are set lower, I look forward to this ungrasped thought state being permanent one day. 
 

My sites are set very low. 

Something I did a year ago now has me sitting burmese posture, not more than 25 minutes, usually.  I think it's something in the lower spine, referred to my legs and knees.

I am forced to discover more closely the relationship between flexion and extension in the lower spine and activity in the abdominals, and to constantly remind myself to relax the appropriate abdominals, calm the flexion and extension, and look for the free location of awareness that can carry on.  

But I find it.  I have to, about twenty minutes in.  "Lack of desire; by means of lack of desire."  I have faith that I'm experiencing a miracle, action without action, when a freedom in the location of awareness carries on.  

If I need to open out, I rely on what I've taught myself.  There is an overall stretch in any posture or carriage, and the freedom in the location of awareness sets up the stretch even when I don't realize it directly, while the stretch sets up the freedom in the location of awareness.  

Twice a day and odd moments in between is better than before.  I don't feel I can ask for too much. 

I'm not talented, but I teach myself with a little help from my friends.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Mark Foote

[steve]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

I like the perspective that we all have blocks, and as they get removed we approach absolute nature which cannot be experienced directly (what is the difference between experiencing nonduality and experiencing absolute nature?) 

I would say “absolute nature” points to the basic essence of all things, beyond which there is no further reduction or greater potential. Nonduality refers to the fact/assertion that at the level of that most basic essence, all things, including my own consciousness, are intimately connected and inseparable and have been that way always and forever.

 

Nondual realization is experiencing that first hand. It is unmistakable and a guaranteed view and life changer and it’s validating how similar the descriptions tend to be among laypeople and yogis going back millennia. It is also nothing more than a deeper, more open and empathetic perspective belonging to a living human being IMO.

 

Quote

Perhaps we differ in that I deliberately removed blocks at first, and then later I found the momentum built to a point that it just happens now, wuwei. I’m a big proponent therefore of youwei before wuwei. 

I was beginning to remove blocks but unexpectedly stumbled into profound and life shifting nonduality about a year into my Daoist meditation practice, though I was not meditating at the time of the shift, I was a passenger in a car heading to vacation.

 

Quote

I haven’t experienced non-duality but I have experienced ‘non-clinging mind’ for two entire days, thoughts flowing through without any grasping onto them, disentangled from them, and this was a very nice experience. So my sights are set lower, I look forward to this ungrasped thought state being permanent one day. 

For me the stable awareness that doesn’t cling is no less an objective or achievement, although they’re both as much blessings as achievement. That clear and responsive heart/mind when fully open is the body of all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of the 3 times and 10 directions. The difference between this pure and perfect mind and nondual realization is largely about certainty and empathy for me.

 

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Re: ego I wonder if self-interest is the problem and other interest the ‘self-realised’ state, as opposed to the neutrality or indifference that I equate with nonduality, at least as it is popularly presented. To fully identify with objects is one thing, but to develop a mind that cannot but care for the welfare of others because the gaze is not entangled with self (and concomitantly to develop the subtle agency to actually do something that can substantially improve another’s welfare) is something else, and I’m not convinced that nondual experience is a necessary part of of this sort of self-development. 
 

I agree that nonduality is not necessary for self-devlopment but nonduality is the “result” of ultimate selflessness and it is a direct path to the Awakened Heart, the spontaneous and authentic need to help others as if they were oneself. It happens because it actually feels like they are oneself - ultimate empathy. That has been my experience of nonduality, in part. Lots more can be said about it but it’s not always good to say things about it.

 

In dzogchen teachings this Awakened Heart is the pinnacle of agency and has the same characteristics as the pure and perfect awareness or natural state of mind - it is empty (space), clear (awareness), and warm (enlightened qualities and action). I continue to be human and I regularly look for support and guidance to do this gift justice (by gift I mean a lot of things - life, health, connection to wisdom teachings and a living master, and to the various wonderful and terrible experiences that have shaped me). I’ve backslid remarkably since it happened nearly 20 years ago but the certainty and empathy remain very palpable and I am getting better at judging myself less and trusting the space more.

 

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Btw this is not a moral stance or a path that I chose, rather it’s the path that I find myself on. 
 

 

 

I’m glad we can bump into each other from time to time… this suggests our paths aren’t as far apart as they might seem.

🙏🏻

❤️

 

[ralis]

5 minutes ago, steve said:

I would say “absolute nature” points to the basic essence of all things, beyond which there is no further reduction or greater potential. Nonduality refers to the fact/assertion that at the level of that most basic essence, all things, including my own consciousness, are intimately connected and inseparable and have been that way always and forever.

 

Nondual realization is experiencing that first hand. It is unmistakable and a guaranteed view and life changer and it’s validating how similar the descriptions tend to be among laypeople and yogis going back millennia. It is also nothing more than a deeper, more open and empathetic perspective belonging to a living human being IMO.

 

I was beginning to remove blocks but stumbled into profound and life shifting nonduality about a year into my Daoist meditation practice, though I was not meditating at the time of the shift, I was a passenger in a car heading to vacation.

 

For me the stable awareness that doesn’t cling is no less an objective or achievement, although they’re both as much blessings as achievement. That clear and responsive heart/mind when fully open is the body of all the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of the 3 times and 10 directions. The difference between this pure and perfect mind and nondual realization is largely about certainty and empathy for me.

 

I agree that nonduality is not necessary for self-devlopment but nonduality is the “result” of ultimate selflessness and it is a direct path to the Awakened Heart, the spontaneous and authentic need to help others as if they were oneself. It happens because it actually feels like they are oneself - ultimate empathy. That has been my experience of nonduality, in part. Lots more can be said about it but it’s not always good to say things about it.

 

In dzogchen teachings this Awakened Heart is the pinnacle of agency and has the same characteristics as the pure and perfect awareness or natural state of mind - it is empty (space), clear (awareness), and warm (enlightened qualities and action). I continue to be human and I regularly look for support and guidance to do this gift justice (by gift I mean a lot of things - life, health, connection to wisdom teachings and a living master, and to the various wonderful and terrible experiences that have shaped me). I’ve backslid remarkably since it happened nearly 20 years ago but the certainty and empathy remain very palpable and I am getting better at judging myself less and trusting the space more.

 

I’m glad we can bump into each other from time to time… this suggests our paths aren’t as far apart as they might seem.

🙏🏻

❤️

 

 

Space is not empty. I wish that Buddhists or whomever came up with that term would stop using that it. Emptiness is not in my experience whatsoever. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by ralis