Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[manitou]

16 hours ago, Bindi said:

Do the ‘nondually awakened’ believe that there is no further awakening to come? 
 

 https://liveanddare.com/neo-advaita/8/

 

 

Once the awakening has occurred, it becomes a matter of living with the ramifications.  It is not static, it doesn't seem to be a default mental setting; rather, one that can be toggled at will when needed.  Perhaps after many years of living in this condition, it will be a constant default position. I don't know.

@Bindi, you said something earlier about being left with nothing left but ego.  I think this is a misunderstanding.  The way to get to the non dual is by the long path of crunching one's own ego.  The non dual is egoless,. It has no thought, it lives in a state of wu wei, it knows what to do or not do in any circumstance.  Prior conditioning does not color it's actions any more, it acts in accordance with the Dao and benefits all things.

 

[stirling]

17 hours ago, Bindi said:

Do the ‘nondually awakened’ believe that there is no further awakening to come? 
 

 https://liveanddare.com/neo-advaita/8/

 

There is DEEPENING of the understanding, NOT further awakening.

 

Aside from the initial Stream Entry and the understanding of "no self" (Arahat), the Stages aren't a hard and fast set of definite points, just a series of possible mileposts. The understanding of emptiness/non-duality just continues to deepen as time goes on even after "no-self". At some point it is really even impossible to characterize in words. This does NOT mean that the actual insight changes. Think of it like a deep sea diver. The diver gets to 50 feet. Then the diver gets to 100 ft. Then 200 ft. Each depth isn't a new understanding of what diving is, but a new experiential point. 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

My suggestion, since non dual understanding is a necessary step, is to let go of your cognitive dissonance about how it is presented and ideas about how it will or won't be, and make room for it to dawn on you. Once it is an "attainment" for you, you can see what it actually means to your practice and path. Arguing what it is or isn't from a position of avidya is just a waste of time. Your attempts to quantify the understanding, or put it in a box now, will absolutely limit the chance that it will happen at all. You obviously don't want that if this is an important step. 

 

I understand your identification with your dream. I also had many visionary dreams and experiences along the path, and many kept me engaged, so I valued them. My advice is to document them, and notice what they bring up for you in terms of your hopes, but also fears, but ALSO to hold them lightly - don't take them for any kind of absolute reality.
 

 

You think your advice is absolute reality instead? 

 

2 hours ago, stirling said:

Remember your fear of non-duality. It's valuable. Examine carefully what your fear is about, especially what you are afraid of "losing", so that you can examine that fear in the light of understanding and see what it now means in context.

Do I have a fear of nonduality though? From my perspective my fear would be to identify with nondual perception as the final achievement, unaware that the job isn’t done. Ego is a mightily slippery customer. 

[Bindi]

48 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

Once the awakening has occurred, it becomes a matter of living with the ramifications.  It is not static, it doesn't seem to be a default mental setting; rather, one that can be toggled at will when needed. 
 

 

This is pretty much what I would expect of the nondual perspective, it can be toggled at will when needed.

 

48 minutes ago, manitou said:

Perhaps after many years of living in this condition, it will be a constant default position. I don't know.

@Bindi, you said something earlier about being left with nothing left but ego.  I think this is a misunderstanding. 
 

 

Perhaps you could find where I said this and quote it, as this isn’t something I think. 

 

Quote

The way to get to the non dual is by the long path of crunching one's own ego.  The non dual is egoless,. It has no thought, it lives in a state of wu wei, it knows what to do or not do in any circumstance.  Prior conditioning does not color it's actions any more, it acts in accordance with the Dao and benefits all things.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Bindi

[stirling]

2 minutes ago, Bindi said:

You think your advice is absolute reality instead?

 

I would say that absolute reality is just what is happening now, without any obscurations about time/space or self/other. 

 

Quote

Do I have a fear of nonduality though? From my perspective my fear would be to identify with nondual perception as the final achievement, unaware that the job isn’t done.

 

It sounds like you are saying that there IS some fear there to me. I would characterize your fear as a fear in duality of the nondual. You are afraid that there is some non-dual "achievement" to identify with, and also something beyond that you might miss out on. My experience is that both of these are ultimately impossible.
 

My advice is simple: Nonduality is in front of you. The way forward is through, if there IS a through... right? So, your next milepost is having non-dual understanding. I am giving you advice that I feel would help you to do that. Then we can all discuss it and you can make your mind up about how things are for yourself.

 

Quote

Ego is a mightily slippery customer. 

 

I agree that ego IS a slippery customer. I would personally say that this is what is causing the fear. Ego is always afraid that there is a mistake to be made, a shortcut to be missed, or something better to have or experience. It is also afraid of being subsumed or not really existing. Any of these are also possible avenues in and are thus worthy of investigation if the goal (even if you imagine it is just a milestone) is awakening.

[mrpasserby]

38 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

@Bindi  

"Do I have a fear of nonduality though? From my perspective my fear would be to identify with nondual perception as the final achievement, unaware that the job isn’t done. Ego is a mightily slippery customer."

I resonate with you on this point. Thanks

 

 

[Bindi]

32 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I would say that absolute reality is just what is happening now, without any obscurations about time/space or self/other. 

 

 

It sounds like you are saying that there IS some fear there to me. I would characterize your fear as a fear in duality of the nondual. You are afraid that there is some non-dual "achievement" to identify with, and also something beyond that you might miss out on. My experience is that both of these are ultimately impossible.
 

My advice is simple: Nonduality is in front of you. The way forward is through, if there IS a through... right? So, your next milepost is having non-dual understanding.
 

 

You have absolutely no idea what my next milepost is. You assume it is having non-dual understanding, but it’s not, in fact my next milepost is related to the Vijnanamaya Kosha, the layer of intellect, wisdom, intuition and knowledge. I have no interest whatsoever in shortcuts to nonduality. Each kosha is only revealed and accessed once the journey through the previous layer has been completed and the illusions or falsehoods of the previous layer has been peeled away. Leaping ahead to nonduality is to miss all the valuable development and peeling away of each amazing layer of ourselves. 

 

Quote

I am giving you advice that I feel would help you to do that. Then we can all discuss it and you can make your mind up about how things are for yourself.

 

 

I agree that ego IS a slippery customer. I would personally say that this is what is causing the fear. Ego is always afraid that there is a mistake to be made, a shortcut to be missed, or something better to have or experience. It is also afraid of being subsumed or not really existing. Any of these are also possible avenues in and are thus worthy of investigation if the goal (even if you imagine it is just a milestone) is awakening.

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Bindi

[stirling]

25 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

You have absolutely no idea what my next milepost is. You assume it is having non-dual understanding, but it’s not, in fact my next milepost is related to the Vijnanamaya Kosha, the layer of intellect, wisdom, intuition and knowledge. I have no interest whatsoever in shortcuts to nonduality. Each kosha is only revealed and accessed once the journey through the previous layer has been completed and the illusions or falsehoods of the previous layer has been peeled away. Leaping ahead to nonduality is to miss all the valuable development and peeling away of each amazing layer of ourselves

 

I'm not sure why this discussion has to be contentious. I didn't say that I knew what your next milepost is, I only know that you have suggested that a non-dual understanding is in your path at some point. Am I wrong about that? 

 

The "illusions and falsehoods", (or "delusions and obscurations" as I would call them) are always in the way... until they aren't. The idea of shortcuts is just another delusion, IMHO.

[Bindi]

5 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I'm not sure why this discussion has to be contentious. I didn't say that I knew what your next milepost is,

 

You said this exactly: “So, your next milepost is having non-dual understanding.”

 

5 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I only know that you have suggested that a non-dual understanding is in your path at some point. Am I wrong about that? 

 

 

No you’re not wrong about that, but this doesn’t mean you didn’t say the above. 

 

5 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

The "illusions and falsehoods", (or "delusions and obscurations" as I would call them) are always in the way... until they aren't. The idea of shortcuts is just another delusion, IMHO.

Out of interest, do you still have delusions and obscuratiions? 

[blue eyed snake]

well... although I regard myself as nothing, just BES.

 

There's always the danger of a person setting themselves up as pipsqueak guru's, long before the original realization has come to fruition. The term luminous blob comes to mind.

 

Bindi is walking her path as she deems fit and she's doing that with outstanding resilience.

 

plus, remembering some experiences in my personal past: the first realisation of the fact that 'me' is just a layers of layers of conditioning plus some other thingies... happened together with strong energetic experiences, it pretty much consumed me.

 

When Bindi feels her path is for her the best way, it just is.

 

totally unimportant where she will reach some 'goal' next week or next life as long as she feels the way she has to tread.

[stirling]

15 minutes ago, Bindi said:

You said this exactly: “So, your next milepost is having non-dual understanding.”

 

I didn't dig through my history, so I'll take your word for it. I misspoke. Will you forgive me?

 

Quote

No you’re not wrong about that, but this doesn’t mean you didn’t say the above. 

 

For which I am sorry. I admit I have not spent much time investigating your path or its list of attainments. 

 

Quote

Out of interest, do you still have delusions and obscuratiions? 

 

In terms of the nature of reality, no. 

[old3bob]

the Self can see the ego but the ego can not see the Self...

 

the true goodness can see/comprehend evil but evil can not see/comprehend the true goodness...

 

besides the "illusions and falsehoods of the previous layer" by Bindi.... there is also the "amazing" truths where and when applicable to them, as it sounded like you meant at the end of your related sentence?

 

I always liked that saying of,  "one man's garbage is another man's treasure" which to me has bearing with or in analogy with saying one man's (or woman's) dharma's can become another man's adharma's.   (or misapplication, for instance a householder can not also be a monk or nun at the same time  and still fulfill their householder dharma)

Edited May 25, 2022 by old3bob

[silent thunder]

The world as it is, is not the world that is talked about, or thought about.

What i am, is what i am. 

What i think i am is not what i am.

 

Thinking is conceptualizing.  It is mentation. 

Ascribing symbols to conceptualize reality to describe it.  This is storytelling.

Reality is not conceptual, but to describe it, mind conceptualizes it in symbols and then often mistakes this for the reality.

 

Yet symbols are not real.

The map is never the terrirory.

The menu is not the meal.

 

Our ideas and images of 'ourselves' are symbolic representations, conceptualizations, not the reality of self.

 

To conflate symbols with reality is confusion of self, misidentification.

Myopia can be liberating and imprisoning.

 

Of late, the skin that used to be experienced as the barrier seperating my 'self' from 'all rest of it'... has unfolded into the most intimate living bridge connecting inside with outside.  Unifying.  In much the way breathing did long ago.

 

Like the breath, the skin has revealed itself not as barrier to, but conduit of... conduition of the ever flowing exchange of inner and outer, which are experientially two aspects of one process.  Every breath in is an expression of unity.  The outside becomes the inside.  Every meal eaten, the outside is now the inside.  Every defecation, every exhale the inside becomes the outside.  There is no longer a meaningful grouping of symbols that can supplant the experience of inward and outward unfoldingness in perpetual unified process. 

 

What 'i do'  and what 'happens to me' is a softening dance unfolding perpetually with no words required.

 

Beingness encompasses unfolding awareness.

Sensing occurs.

Presence is.

 

Awareness is here.

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by silent thunder
wording shift

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

You have absolutely no idea what my next milepost is. You assume it is having non-dual understanding, but it’s not, in fact my next milepost is related to the Vijnanamaya Kosha, the layer of intellect, wisdom, intuition and knowledge. I have no interest whatsoever in shortcuts to nonduality. Each kosha is only revealed and accessed once the journey through the previous layer has been completed and the illusions or falsehoods of the previous layer has been peeled away. Leaping ahead to nonduality is to miss all the valuable development and peeling away of each amazing layer of ourselves. 

 

 

That is a misunderstanding imho of the panchakosha. Vijnanamaya kosha (in fact all the koshas are) is always accessible (and accessed), constantly. 
 

You have a body - annamaya kosha 

you have prana/experience energetic flows - pranamaya kosha 

you have a mind/thoughts/emotions/feelings - manomaya kosha

you can perform intellectual activities - vijnanamaya kosha 

you feel pleasure/joy/happiness/enjoy deep sleep every night - anandamaya kosha

 

What is needed is discernment to recognize these things. No one “leaps” ahead to nonduality. To make that statement indicates a lack of understanding. No yogic contortions are necessary, just clarity of understanding (vijnanamaya kosha needs to be used). 
 

What is the point of over complicating these things? They are simple and represent a specific ontological perspective.
 

This is akin to someone saying, I want to experience the panchabhutas or I can’t go beyond them. No shortcuts for me. So are you not always experiencing the panchabhutas? space, air, water, fire, earth? How else do you want to “experience” them?  Just know what they are, understand it, and boom! You’re a certified panchakosha and panchabhuta expert! No one else needs to confirm this to you — when you know, you know! 

Edited May 25, 2022 by dwai

[dwai]

47 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

well... although I regard myself as nothing, just BES.

 

There's always the danger of a person setting themselves up as pipsqueak guru's, long before the original realization has come to fruition. The term luminous blob comes to mind.

 

Bindi is walking her path as she deems fit and she's doing that with outstanding resilience.

 

plus, remembering some experiences in my personal past: the first realisation of the fact that 'me' is just a layers of layers of conditioning plus some other thingies... happened together with strong energetic experiences, it pretty much consumed me.

 

When Bindi feels her path is for her the best way, it just is.

 

totally unimportant where she will reach some 'goal' next week or next life as long as she feels the way she has to tread.

Each of us have a specific path we’re set upon. Like I said before, not everyone is ready for nonduality…we’ll, until they realize that they’ve never not been the nondual reality. When they do, all they can do is laugh at the irony of it all. 
 

It’s not a hierarchical thing, it is a karmic thing. What we are, how we are and where we are is a result of past karma. Our minds are conditioned to be a certain way - this conditioning is karmic. So, karma determines our path.

 

[steve]

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

I have no interest whatsoever in shortcuts to nonduality. Each kosha is only revealed and accessed once the journey through the previous layer has been completed and the illusions or falsehoods of the previous layer has been peeled away. Leaping ahead to nonduality is to miss all the valuable development and peeling away of each amazing layer of ourselves. 

 

My experience is a little different than some of what I’ve read here, fwiw.

 

There are no shortcuts to nonduality, it is always there whether we are aware or not and our recognition of it simply happens… or not. Nothing we can do, or not do, will reliably bring us to this realization that I am aware of. It is more a gift, or for a rare few perhaps a curse, than an achievement of any kind. I do think it is supported by resting and relaxing into the present moment as opposed to thinking and analyzing.

 

I’m not sure how useful it is to imagine the koshas as a stepwise process as there is no meaningful boundary or gatekeeper that insures we complete our “work” with one before addressing another. I could be wrong in this of course. Our personal approach can certainly be in stages but in reality I think we are always working at multiple levels simultaneously, perhaps emphasizing one or another.

 

Nondual realization does not prevent us from continuing to examine and develop ourselves. In some ways it has enhanced my process of self examination and personal growth. For some the impetus to do just that disappears. It was like that for me for a while but in continuing to live in relationship to others there came an insight that I could do so much more with this perspective than simply rest on my laurels. It led me to connect with a wonderful teacher and spiritual lineage and community and has enriched my life both personally and professionally.

 

All of the above is just my experience, every one of us is different. While there is a lot of talk about “no self” and so forth, that is not my experience. Even in the midst of powerful nondual experiences there is still this body and mind that I am connected to until death. It can be extremely subtle, approaching the limit of dissolution, but I believe there is always at least a tiny bit of personal perspective there in this human life, even in the rapture of nondual awakening, the clear light of deep sleep and the open restfulness of samadhi. The self is still always there if I’m brutally honest and carefully observant. It is simply a matter of knowing and experiencing that this self does not limit me, it does not define me, it is a familiar, usually comfortable, and extremely powerful construct that carries with it the illusion that it is all that I am. That’s simply not accurate. It is there to work with to whatever degree we need or desire both before and after an awakening experience. 

 

As always don’t believe anything I say. Do the work you are drawn to, whatever that may be, and look deeply at yourself (I mean that in a general sense, not pointing at anyone in particular).

[natural]

Both my drawers and pants have 4 openings, does that mean I am a double dualist?

[manitou]

13 minutes ago, natural said:

Both my drawers and pants have 4 openings, does that mean I am a double dualist?

 

That's curious.  Mine only have 3.  Was I gypped?

[liminal_luke]

Nondual awakening is a little like winning the lottery. They're both unlikely events whose ramifications are best pondered after the fact.  Everybody has an opinion but few of us really know whether either scenario leads to happiness or moral behavior.  I suspect most Bums would prefer nondual awakening but if you win the lottery nobody will come up to you and say you were always rich and just didn't know it.  That's gotta count for something.

Edited May 25, 2022 by liminal_luke

[manitou]

7 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Nondual awakening is a little like winning the lottery. They're both unlikely events whose ramifications are best pondered after the fact.  Everybody has an opinion but few of us really know whether either scenario leads to happiness or moral behavior.  I suspect most Bums would prefer nondual awakening but if you win the lottery nobody will come up to you and say you were always rich and just didn't know it.  That's gotta count for something.

 

 

Interesting.  Opinion, happiness or moral behavior.  It doesn't seem that any of it is really relevant once the non dual has been realized.

[steve]

2 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

... if you win the lottery nobody will come up to you and say you were always rich and just didn't know it.

 

There's a beautiful statement in the dzogchen teachings that I believe comes from the Seven Mirrors of Dzogchen attributed to Drenpa Namhka in the 8th century:

 

It's positive qualities are inconceivable,

Like the revelation of a king's treasure.

The one who rests in its true meaning

Enjoys the inexhaustible wealth of its fruition. 

[stirling]

1 minute ago, steve said:

 

There's a beautiful statement in the dzogchen teachings that I believe comes from the Seven Mirrors of Dzogchen attributed to Drenpa Namhka in the 8th century:

 

It's positive qualities are inconceivable,

Like the revelation of a king's treasure.

The one who rests in its true meaning

Enjoys the inexhaustible wealth of its fruition. 

 

Reminds me of:

 

Quote

 

Profound and tranquil, free from complexity, Uncompounded luminous clarity,

Beyond the mind of conceptual ideas;
This is the depth of the mind of the Victorious Ones.

In this there is not a thing to be removed, Nor anything that needs to be added.
It is merely the immaculate

Looking naturally at itself. - Nyoshul Khenpo Rinpoche

 

 

[manitou]

19 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Nondual awakening is a little like winning the lottery. They're both unlikely events whose ramifications are best pondered after the fact.  Everybody has an opinion but few of us really know whether either scenario leads to happiness or moral behavior.  I suspect most Bums would prefer nondual awakening but if you win the lottery nobody will come up to you and say you were always rich and just didn't know it.  That's gotta count for something.

 

 

Interesting.  Opinion, happiness or moral behavior.  It doesn't seem that any of it is really relevant once the non dual has been realized.

[manitou]

Sorry for the double post.  This is a new phone with different features.  Haven't mastered it yet.

When Nyophul Rinpoche said 'free from complexity' in @Stirling's post, it alludes to the odd way in which problems are solved from this mind.  It's just a question of standing back, mentally, and allowing the answer to arise.  Opinion or pre-conditioning don't seem to be part of the equation.  It's all about getting ourselves out of the way

 

[natural]

46 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

That's curious.  Mine only have 3.  Was I gypped?

 

it depends