Do right and wrong / good and evil exist

[S:C]

.

Edited May 8 by S:C
-

[old3bob]

On a tangent: I'm not sure how we differentiate between, "dumb and dumber"...could it also be subjective?

 

[Geof Nanto]

How do people feel on watching this video, especially those who claim absolute detachment from any judgement? I know there’s a part of me that would like to see the person addressing the rally hung, drawn and quartered, not as a metaphor but in reality. However, experience has shown me such revenge actions have the sort of consequences @questionmark has so thoroughly outlined above. 

 

And it’s far from the totality of what I feel. I also feel the power of opening my heart in the way Jesus taught. That’s no easy accomplishment, indeed this true essence of Christianity is almost beyond we humans. Yet as I grow older and progress in my inner cultivation, I feel it in smaller, less absolute ways.  To be able to do that, to feel that level of compassion yet remain cohesive as an embodied human, I very much need all my Daoist practice; both xing and ming cultivation and all that entails.

 

From what I’ve glimpsed, opening to the Self does not close one off from the world of suffering but allows one to be big enough to hold it.  

 

 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Yueya said:

From what I’ve glimpsed, opening to the Self does not close one off from the world of suffering but allows one to be big enough to hold it.  

 

🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

[Michael Sternbach]

On 21.12.2021 at 2:23 AM, Daniel said:

What is your opinion of right-and-wrong or good-and-evil?  Do they exist?

 

I vote yes!  They do exist.

 

Theft, Murder, Rape, Kidnapping are all wrong and evil.

 

If wrong and evil exist, then certainly good and right exist.

 

Right. And wrong.

 

Happy New Year!

Michael

[Daniel]

For those who deny that right and wrong exist, do you also deny the "Noble Eight Fold Path" in Buddhism?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path#:~:text=In the Mahācattārīsaka Sutta which,release (sammā-vimutti).

 

The eight Buddhist practices in the Noble Eightfold Path are:

1. Right Resolve or Intention: the giving up of home and adopting the life of a religious mendicant in order to follow the path; this concept aims at peaceful renunciation, into an environment of non-sensuality, non-ill-will (to loving kindness), away from cruelty (to compassion).^[25] Such an environment aids contemplation of impermanence, suffering, and non-Self.^[25]
2. Right Speech: no lying, no rude speech, no telling one person what another says about him to cause discord or harm their relationship.^[26]
3. Right Conduct or Action: no killing or injuring, no taking what is not given, no sexual misconduct, no material desires.
4. Right Livelihood: no trading in weapons, living beings, meat, liquor, and poisons.
5. Right Effort: preventing the arising of unwholesome states, and generating wholesome states, the bojjhagā (Seven Factors of Awakening). This includes indriya-samvara, "guarding the sense-doors", restraint of the sense faculties.^[27][25]
6. Right Mindfulness (sati; Satipatthana; Sampajañña): "retention", being mindful of the dhammas ("teachings", "elements") that are beneficial to the Buddhist path.^{[28][note 2]} In the vipassana movement, sati is interpreted as "bare attention": never be absent minded, being conscious of what one is doing; this encourages the awareness of the impermanence of body, feeling and mind, as well as to experience the five aggregates (skandhas), the five hindrances, the four True Realities and seven factors of awakening.^[25]
7. Right samadhi (passaddhi; ekaggata; sampasadana): practicing four stages of dhyāna ("meditation"), which includes samadhi proper in the second stage, and reinforces the development of the bojjhagā, culminating into upekkha (equanimity) and mindfulness.^[30] In the Theravada tradition and the vipassana movement, this is interpreted as ekaggata, concentration or one-pointedness of the mind, and supplemented with vipassana meditation, which aims at insight.
8. Right View: our actions have consequences, death is not the end, and our actions and beliefs have consequences after death. The Buddha followed and taught a successful path out of this world and the other world (heaven and underworld/hell). Later on, right view came to explicitly include karma and rebirth, and the importance of the Four Noble Truths, when "insight" became central to Buddhist soteriology.

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Daniel

[manitou]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

1. soteriology.

 

 

 

Salvation from what?

[old3bob]

58 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

Salvation from what?

 

would seemingly be (stuck)  in converse,  thus wrong view, wrong speech, wrong conduct, etc...

Edited January 5, 2022 by old3bob

[ralis]

For a little perspective.

 

[old3bob]

the seasons on earth (which follow universal law) do not end with eternal winter and thus how could the universe...which also "returns"

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

For those who deny that right and wrong exist, do you also deny the "Noble Eight Fold Path" in Buddhism?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path#:~:text=In the Mahācattārīsaka Sutta which,release (sammā-vimutti).

 

The eight Buddhist practices in the Noble Eightfold Path are:

1. Right Resolve or Intention: the giving up of home and adopting the life of a religious mendicant in order to follow the path; this concept aims at peaceful renunciation, into an environment of non-sensuality, non-ill-will (to loving kindness), away from cruelty (to compassion).^[25] Such an environment aids contemplation of impermanence, suffering, and non-Self.^[25]
2. Right Speech: no lying, no rude speech, no telling one person what another says about him to cause discord or harm their relationship.^[26]
3. Right Conduct or Action: no killing or injuring, no taking what is not given, no sexual misconduct, no material desires.
4. Right Livelihood: no trading in weapons, living beings, meat, liquor, and poisons.
5. Right Effort: preventing the arising of unwholesome states, and generating wholesome states, the bojjhagā (Seven Factors of Awakening). This includes indriya-samvara, "guarding the sense-doors", restraint of the sense faculties.^[27][25]
6. Right Mindfulness (sati; Satipatthana; Sampajañña): "retention", being mindful of the dhammas ("teachings", "elements") that are beneficial to the Buddhist path.^{[28][note 2]} In the vipassana movement, sati is interpreted as "bare attention": never be absent minded, being conscious of what one is doing; this encourages the awareness of the impermanence of body, feeling and mind, as well as to experience the five aggregates (skandhas), the five hindrances, the four True Realities and seven factors of awakening.^[25]
7. Right samadhi (passaddhi; ekaggata; sampasadana): practicing four stages of dhyāna ("meditation"), which includes samadhi proper in the second stage, and reinforces the development of the bojjhagā, culminating into upekkha (equanimity) and mindfulness.^[30] In the Theravada tradition and the vipassana movement, this is interpreted as ekaggata, concentration or one-pointedness of the mind, and supplemented with vipassana meditation, which aims at insight.
8. Right View: our actions have consequences, death is not the end, and our actions and beliefs have consequences after death. The Buddha followed and taught a successful path out of this world and the other world (heaven and underworld/hell). Later on, right view came to explicitly include karma and rebirth, and the importance of the Four Noble Truths, when "insight" became central to Buddhist soteriology.

 

hope you get more of answer on this than I did back on page 2...

[Nungali]

46 minutes ago, ralis said:

For a little perspective.

 

 

 

 

 

" I'm  Brahma ! "

[Nungali]

41 minutes ago, old3bob said:

the seasons on earth (which follow universal law) do not end with eternal winter and thus how could the universe...which also "returns"

 

Errrm....  because one is not the other and the seasons on earth are driven by  totally different dynamics than the 'creation and destruction' of Cosmos .  The Cosmos , as someone else put it , is like  'nothingness with twinkles' .   I would add ; rare , occasional and fleeting twinkles.

[natural]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 

" I'm  Brahma ! "

I worked with a fella named Bahma by his folks, often called the Bull or Brahma.

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Salvation from what?

 

It's a good question, thank you.  I'm not Buddhist, so I can only offer my minimal knowledge.  I think the wiki article is describing salvation from craving which leads to suffering as well as salvation from the endless cycle of birth-life-death-rebirth.  This is described in the wiki as: 

 

"

5 hours ago, Daniel said:

The Buddha followed and taught a successful path out of this world and the other world (heaven and underworld/hell)

 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Errrm....  because one is not the other and the seasons on earth are driven by  totally different dynamics than the 'creation and destruction' of Cosmos .  The Cosmos , as someone else put it , is like  'nothingness with twinkles' .   I would add ; rare , occasional and fleeting twinkles.

 

no so in essence although in appearance or scale seemingly so...for at or after the return it all starts over again.
(per Tao)   btw if an eternal winter of black holes  was the end game we would not be here now arguing about it, for that would have  happened already...

Edited January 5, 2022 by old3bob

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

It's a good question, thank you.  I'm not Buddhist, so I can only offer my minimal knowledge.  I think the wiki article is describing salvation from craving which leads to suffering as well as salvation from the endless cycle of birth-life-death-rebirth.  This is described in the wiki as: 

 

 

there is also that saying that goes something like,  "samsara properly understood is Nirvana"...thus freedom from attachments in this or any other world, which is not quite the same as not being in it,  meaning was the historic Buddha still a Buddha while in human form on this earth?   (or anywhere else as He was also depicted in the corners of each realm of and or outside the Tibetan wheel of life)

 

 

A1wheelrealm-56a0c4133df78cafdaa4d32c.webp

Edited January 5, 2022 by old3bob

[Nungali]

51 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

no so in essence although in appearance or scale seemingly so...for at or after the return it all starts over again.
(per Tao)   btw if an eternal winter of black holes  was the end game we would not be here now arguing about it, for that would have  happened already...

 

I agree with the cyclic nature*  but not with the comparison .

 

 

 

*  But not all agree ;

 

.

Though one were strong as seven,

         He too with death shall dwell,

Nor wake with wings in heaven,

         Nor weep for pains in hell;

Though one were fair as roses,

His beauty clouds and closes;

And well though love reposes,

         In the end it is not well.

 

From too much love of living,

         From hope and fear set free,

We thank with brief thanksgiving

         Whatever gods may be

That no life lives for ever;

That dead men rise up never;

That even the weariest river

         Winds somewhere safe to sea.

 

Then star nor sun shall waken,

         Nor any change of light:

Nor sound of waters shaken,

         Nor any sound or sight:

Nor wintry leaves nor vernal,

Nor days nor things diurnal;

Only the sleep eternal

         In an eternal night.

[Nungali]

23 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

there is also that saying that goes something like,  "samsara properly understood is Nirvana"...thus freedom from attachments in this or any other world, which is not quite the same as not being in it,  meaning was the historic Buddha still a Buddha while in human form on this earth?   (or anywhere else as He was also depicted in the corners of each realm of and or outside the Tibetan wheel of life)

 

 

A1wheelrealm-56a0c4133df78cafdaa4d32c.webp

 

Very early on in my journey , I discovered this  (in another way )  from 'white gnosticism ' * .   I was taught that Hinduism only goes so 'far' , Buddhism will take you further  ... but not far enough , there is a crucial misunderstanding 'hidden' within .   Beyond this is a 'type of Hinduism' that goes again  further than ' the trance of sorrow ' .

 

And again .... a type of   ( I'll leave terms like 'white gnosticism, Buddhism and Hinduism behind now )  ... 'enlightenment ' beyond even this  ' "samsara properly understood is Nirvana".   Of course, its hard to perceive from a single incarnations viewpoint , but as we expand that  viewpoint  it comes more into 'view' .. . . .  I feel best described in this  ode to 'THE END '  ( which follows the one to 'DEATH'  .... or to be recited at a funeral ... for those appropriately  'Gnostically Enlightened ' ;

 

 

The End

The DEACON: Unto them from whose eyes the veil of life hath fallen may there be granted the accomplishment of their true Wills; whether they will absorption in the Infinite, or to be united with their chosen and preferred, or to be in contemplation, or to be at peace, or to achieve the labour and heroism of incarnation on this planet or another, or in any Star, or aught else, unto them may there be granted the accomplishment of their wills.

 

Of course, people like the Australian Aboriginals lived in this  state of Samsara / Nirvana   ... before invasion .    They where people inhabiting a vast 'Garden of Eden ' .... who never got expelled , but the garden got invaded  by other types, who did not seem to have a clue what was going on, about life, spirituality and a whole range of other human traits.

 

Sure, death was ever present , but your spirit just go back to waterhole and  later, live again, your material aspects are passed on to descendants , through you from ancestors , so you 'live again through them , continually' .   Indigenous people didnt have such a sense of isolated individual 'self' that lives and dies , like much of modern man has .   'Self' is 'smeared' through generations , but also very ancient  and possibly 'immortal' (as long as 'the people' survive ) .  Its not too hard a realisation if one can connect with ones genetic consciousness  - ' 7th. circuit '  .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness#Seventh_Circuit

 

 

[old3bob]

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Very early on in my journey , I discovered this  (in another way )  from 'white gnosticism ' * .   I was taught that Hinduism only goes so 'far' , Buddhism will take you further  ... but not far enough , there is a crucial misunderstanding 'hidden' within .   Beyond this is a 'type of Hinduism' that goes again  further than ' the trance of sorrow ' .

 

And again .... a type of   ( I'll leave terms like 'white gnosticism, Buddhism and Hinduism behind now )  ... 'enlightenment ' beyond even this  ' "samsara properly understood is Nirvana".   Of course, its hard to perceive from a single incarnations viewpoint , but as we expand that  viewpoint  it comes more into 'view' .. . . .  I feel best described in this  ode to 'THE END '  ( which follows the one to 'DEATH'  .... or to be recited at a funeral ... for those appropriately  'Gnostically Enlightened ' ;

 

 

The End

The DEACON: Unto them from whose eyes the veil of life hath fallen may there be granted the accomplishment of their true Wills; whether they will absorption in the Infinite, or to be united with their chosen and preferred, or to be in contemplation, or to be at peace, or to achieve the labour and heroism of incarnation on this planet or another, or in any Star, or aught else, unto them may there be granted the accomplishment of their wills.

 

Of course, people like the Australian Aboriginals lived in this  state of Samsara / Nirvana   ... before invasion .    They where people inhabiting a vast 'Garden of Eden ' .... who never got expelled , but the garden got invaded  by other types, who did not seem to have a clue what was going on, about life, spirituality and a whole range of other human traits.

 

Sure, death was ever present , but your spirit just go back to waterhole and  later, live again, your material aspects are passed on to descendants , through you from ancestors , so you 'live again through them , continually' .   Indigenous people didnt have such a sense of isolated individual 'self' that lives and dies , like much of modern man has .   'Self' is 'smeared' through generations , but also very ancient  and possibly 'immortal' (as long as 'the people' survive ) .  Its not too hard a realisation if one can connect with ones genetic consciousness  - ' 7th. circuit '  .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness#Seventh_Circuit

 

 

 

we have our own experiences... and btw. there are many forms of Buddhism and Hinduism and unless one has fully traversed such paths then any conclusions about them is only and really just second hand hear-say about how far they go or don't go... so thanks anyway but I'm not buying it.  

Edited January 6, 2022 by old3bob

[manitou]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

Only the sleep eternal

         In an eternal night.

 

 

I'm ready.

[manitou]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

Of course, people like the Australian Aboriginals lived in this  state of Samsara / Nirvana   ... before invasion . 

 

Like a baby before it learns to smile.

[manitou]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

no so in essence although in appearance or scale seemingly so...for at or after the return it all starts over again.
(per Tao)   btw if an eternal winter of black holes  was the end game we would not be here now arguing about it, for that would have  happened already...

 

 

It's all happening Now.

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

It's all happening Now.

 

except evolution takes time and space...(which Now is big enough for)

 

...To be great is to go on,

To go on is to be far,

To be far is to return..."  from Chap 25 of the T.T.C.

[Nungali]

On 06/01/2022 at 12:32 PM, old3bob said:

 

we have our own experiences... and btw. there are many forms of Buddhism and Hinduism and unless one has fully traversed such paths then any conclusions about them is only and really just second hand hear-say about how far they go or don't go... so thanks anyway but I'm not buying it.  

 

 

You are not buying it  ? 

 

 

Ummmmm .... you 'started it  '  with your own  ' just second hand hear-say'  ;

 

On 06/01/2022 at 10:08 AM, old3bob said:

 

there is also that saying that goes something like,  "samsara properly understood is Nirvana"...thus freedom from attachments in this or any other world, which is not quite the same as not being in it,  meaning was the historic Buddha still a Buddha while in human form on this earth?   (or anywhere else as He was also depicted in the corners of each realm of and or outside the Tibetan wheel of life)

 

 

 

Unless you can cite where in Buddhism  it teaches   "samsara properly understood is Nirvana"..  ?