Nuralshamal

"The foundation", jing, semen, blood and standing meditation

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@freeform

Thanks for sharing your thoughts :)

I completely agree that semen is simply one physical manifestation of jing. 

Yes, I also completely agree that sealing the physical leakages (blood and semen) is simply the physical component. I never said it's the end all and be all of alchemy, I simply mentioned that it's a part of it. So, I agree with you about that as well.

This post is all about me sharing my experiences with "the foundation", and jing is the foundation. Semen and blood is also a part of that.

Just like you said, it's "the start". The foundation is the start. "The foundation" is what I titled my original post :)  Seems like we've gone full circle.

Be blessed :D 

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I've picked up the Wim Hof Method again recently, after reading James Nestor's book 'Breath', so I practice some form of breath retention quite regularly.

 

I don't pretend to understand the full science, but breath retention seems to act to increase oxygen sensitivity at a cellular level.

 

https://blog.supplysideliberal.com/post/2020/7/28/carbon-dioxide-as-a-stimulant-for-lung-function

 

I find pranayama generally pretty fascinating. But to me it always feels physiological, rather than spiritual. The benefits I've received from the Wim Hof Method are physical ones - mental alertness, improved lung function (this may have saved my life when I had covid last year)

 

I don't think it's a good idea to try and mix in pranayama with qigong. Anymore than you'd want to have Netflix on while you're practicing mindfulness of breathing, it seems to be a distraction. Even practicing it alongside qigong would seem to be a bit risky, as it's from a yogic background, and works on a different model of the energy system.

 

Don't mean to tell you how to suck eggs though. You probably have more direct experience with this sort of thing than I. Thanks again for sharing your experience.

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26 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

I've picked up the Wim Hof Method again recently, after reading James Nestor's book 'Breath', so I practice some form of breath retention quite regularly.

 

I don't pretend to understand the full science, but breath retention seems to act to increase oxygen sensitivity at a cellular level.

 

https://blog.supplysideliberal.com/post/2020/7/28/carbon-dioxide-as-a-stimulant-for-lung-function

 

I find pranayama generally pretty fascinating. But to me it always feels physiological, rather than spiritual. The benefits I've received from the Wim Hof Method are physical ones - mental alertness, improved lung function (this may have saved my life when I had covid last year)

 

I don't think it's a good idea to try and mix in pranayama with qigong. Anymore than you'd want to have Netflix on while you're practicing mindfulness of breathing, it seems to be a distraction. Even practicing it alongside qigong would seem to be a bit risky, as it's from a yogic background, and works on a different model of the energy system.

 

Don't mean to tell you how to suck eggs though. You probably have more direct experience with this sort of thing than I. Thanks again for sharing your experience.


Hi @Vajra Fist, thanks for sharing your thoughts :D

Sounds great that it helped you through Covid! Physical strength (e.g. strong lungs) is no small accomplishment in terms of health :)

Yes, it makes sense not to mix systems! Always practice under the guidance of a true teacher :) that's the best guidance and protection.

Just to clarify, when I shared about the similarities between yoga, meditation and qigong, it was simply to put things into perspective.

I don't mix the systems up and try to do "my own thing". I follow the guidance as given by the teachers I've learnt from.

The breath holding is a part of the jing to qi step, strengthening and refining your jing (physical body) and cultivating and strengthening your qi (energy).

The continous and simultaneous cultivation of both your jing, qi and shen, through body, breath and posture is a very important part of Master Wu's qigong. It's important in every qigong, using your body, breath (including mantras) and your mind.

Chunyi Lin mentions it too, using body, breath, mantras and the mind.

So, holding one's breath is simply one breathing method, which strengthens and refines your jing, and cultivates and strengthen your qi.

The posture and the mind then distributes the above mentioned benefits to particular parts of the body, the 5 organ systems, the 3 dan tien, or whichever part of your body is in need of extra healing.

Actually, even my genital weight lifting and sexual qigong teacher also talked about the importance of holding the breath. And how to hold one's breath, focus on the place that needs healing, and simply rub it with your hand, is one of the best and most basic self-healing techniques.

So, it's almost every teacher I've learnt from, who has talked about the benefits of this particular breathing method.

It's the same in pranayama, the ujayyi pranayama (calming), the nadi shodhi (cleansing), the bhastrika (energizing) and the kumbhak (breath hold - strengthening and harmonizing). These are the fundamental pranayama techniques, kumbhak being one of the staples.

I believe even Chunyi Lin has mentioned that the yin and yang harmonizes inside the body, when one holds the breath. And his qigong is one of the most gentle ones out there.

Actually, I haven't had a single teacher who has not talked about this particular breathing exercise, namely holding the breath.

But from what I can see in this thread, most don't like it, think it's dangerous, or say that it's very rare, and have never been taught this method. I respect that, we're all unique, we all have our own beliefs and preferences, and of course practice different systems.

For me personally, it's one of the staple breathing exercises I've seen in every single system I've ever studied, no matter if Indian, Sufi, Chinese, Tibetan or even just western fitness training with swimming and diving. So to me, it's very apparent that it's a good and proven method used widely.

But to each his own, of course :)

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@Nuralshamal How you write is nebulous, and I suspect you are doing it on purpose. You also move goal posts when others bring up their concerns about what you have written. That does not make for good nor respectful discussion.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

Just to clarify, when I shared about the similarities between yoga, meditation and qigong, it was simply to put things into perspective.

 

Which perspective? Your own alone. You would need to add this caveat to everything you write.

 

How you now present your observations is as if there was some universal acceptance or universal authority supporting them. It's only you, however, unless you can provide direct quotes from your teachers and classic spiritual source texts that are readily available and verifiable. I'm sure you would not have difficulty providing the latter such since you stipulate that there is proven and wide ground for your thesis.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

Yes, it makes sense not to mix systems! Always practice under the guidance of a true teacher :) that's the best guidance and protection.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

I don't mix the systems up and try to do "my own thing". I follow the guidance as given by the teachers I've learnt from.

 

Yet you seem completely fine in offering "your own thing" and opinion as an infallibly secure foundation and selling it with the so-far unproven association to several recognized teachers, thus giving the false impression that there is any trustworthiness or reliability whatsoever in what you write.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

The breath holding is a part of the jing to qi step, strengthening and refining your jing (physical body) and cultivating and strengthening your qi (energy).

The continous and simultaneous cultivation of both your jing, qi and shen, through body, breath and posture is a very important part of Master Wu's qigong. It's important in every qigong, using your body, breath (including mantras) and your mind.

Chunyi Lin mentions it too, using body, breath, mantras and the mind.

So, holding one's breath is simply one breathing method, which strengthens and refines your jing, and cultivates and strengthen your qi.

 

This is how you are using botched logic to make insufficient justification or conclusion on each paragraph:

 

  1. "Breath holding" introduced to general Qigong verbiage.
  2. Two sentences of horrible grammar and seemingly tautological statements. Attempt to carry over more Qigong verbiage credibly.
  3. Appeal to Chunyi Lin's authority through Qigong verbiage.
  4. Therefore, "breath holding" is a valid method.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

The posture and the mind then distributes the above mentioned benefits to particular parts of the body, the 5 organ systems, the 3 dan tien, or whichever part of your body is in need of extra healing.

 

You claim posture and mind distributing anything—what is the basis for your claim?

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

Actually, even my genital weight lifting and sexual qigong teacher also talked about the importance of holding the breath. And how to hold one's breath, focus on the place that needs healing, and simply rub it with your hand, is one of the best and most basic self-healing techniques.

 

I think you are just making a subtle but rude joke here.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

I believe even Chunyi Lin has mentioned that the yin and yang harmonizes inside the body, when one holds the breath. And his qigong is one of the most gentle ones out there.

 

Do you with absolute certainty represent Chunyi Lin's opinion here? If not, then why should anyone trust your hearsay as you admit as much with the word "believe"?

 

What exactly does Chunyi Lin's Qigong "being gentle" has to do with your previous argument, or anything at all that you have brought up so far?

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

So, it's almost every teacher I've learnt from, who has talked about the benefits of this particular breathing method.

 

Who exactly did not speak of the benefits?

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

Actually, I haven't had a single teacher who has not talked about this particular breathing exercise, namely holding the breath.

 

Let's assume your teachers have all talked about continuous breath holding like you say.

 

Then I ask: Have all your teachers directly endorsed continuous breath holding as a fundamental part of their practice or what they teach to students? If so, then please provide direct references which everyone can examine and confirm whether it's true or not.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

But from what I can see in this thread, most don't like it, think it's dangerous, or say that it's very rare, and have never been taught this method. I respect that, we're all unique, we all have our own beliefs and preferences, and of course practice different systems.

 

All these misleading allusions to others' opinions are logically invalid straw man arguments. You show poor regard when others courteously brought up very specific instances why and where there was a potential misuse of terms or training conventions.

 

You also acknowledge directly in the above quote that some have not been taught the breath holding method, yet below in the next quote...

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

For me personally, it's one of the staple breathing exercises I've seen in every single system I've ever studied, no matter if Indian, Sufi, Chinese, Tibetan or even just western fitness training with swimming and diving. So to me, it's very apparent that it's a good and proven method used widely.

 

...you insist that there is some universality to your claims.

 

I think you are a very elaborate troll and I award you 8/10 for the effort. It was pretty well done and I am sure that a few users have sincerely given you the benefit of doubt.

 

Would you like to share what motivated you to join The Dao Bums and engage in trolling?

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My 2 cents worth - I’ve not come across breath holding in qigong — more slow, smooth and long breathing. 9 cycles over 5 mins or longer. though there are times when breath stops on its own, or physical breathing gives way to internal breathing (and physical breath may not be happening at that time). 
 

I’ve seen and practiced significant breath holding in pranayama. Depending on level of maturity of practice, breath holding can be for long periods of time. This is typically after the inhale (antara Kumbhaka). Breath holding after exhale(bahya kumbhaka) is much shorter, though it often happens to me that physically breath stops during meditation or after specific sets of pranayama. 


My observations with pranayama is that it does raise the vibrational frequency of prana, and the permeation of prana deep into the tissues (depending on the type of pranayama). It also increases the efficacy/potency of qigong in my case. I don’t mix the two — I have separate time windows when do these practices. 
 

Is there a general rule of thumb wrt these practices - yes. Follow the statutory warnings associated with the respective systems - they’ve been put in place based on empirical evidence. But not all rules are applicable to all individuals. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Robert Peng teaches something called Xi Breathing which involves breath holding after the exhale.  There is some breath holding in "level 2"  of Kunlun as Max used to teach it, although I´m not sure he still includes it in his system.  

Edited by liminal_luke
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Taoist breathing helps to spread more oxygen throughout the body, which assists in better functioning of different body parts. More amount of oxygen reaches your tissues and cells that make your immune system stronger. The process helps to get rid of harmful bacteria and viruses. There is no breath retention or holding breath involved.

 

Mixing pre heaven and post heaven energy with breath must be a smooth effortless flow that one can not hear. The rising and sinking, breathing in and out, yin and yang in balance and harmony. 

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Yep: as many above and I are all sharing, where is holding your breath in all of this conjecture?

 

Just a thought: alchemy doesn't mean getting your junior mad scientist chemistry kit in the mail and playing with everything to turn lead into gold, it's a process of trial and error that's been practiced and refined for generations. The conjecture of the OP in this thread is confusing because it's being presented as fact but when challenged, the words are minced and goalposts are moved. 

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@virtue

In most of my responses, you can see I actually agree with many of the things being said.

As with most conflicts, I think it's simply a misunderstanding. That's written communication sometimes.

Can you sum up in one sentence, what it is you would like me to elaborate on?

Because I feel everyone agrees that holding one's breath is simply one breathing method with certain benefits.

Once again, it's only the relative importance given to it, that we disagree on. And that's perfectly okay from my point of view - to each his own.

Morals, virtue, compassion, loving-kindness and the pursuit of internal and relational harmony is in my opinion the most important part of cultivation. All the meditation etc. is simply to assist us in having the power and patience to treat our neighbor as we would like to be treated.

Be blessed :)

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Nothing is absolute. If someone was drowning in blood and seamen with not enough tears to keep them afloat the need to stop breathing might be a good idea.

 

I practice holding my breath cleaning the cats litter box once a week. Not sure if this counts for a cultivation technique but it is very powerful and allows me to do a task in a much more pleasant way.

 

If anyone is waiting for the punch line.....don't hold your breath

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

Can you sum up in one sentence, what it is you would like me to elaborate on?

 

I know you're asking Virtue, but for me the main error around breath holding is this:

 

On 24/07/2021 at 9:57 AM, Nuralshamal said:

From my limited understanding, studies and experience, it's because it's actually one of the secret, key ingredients to internal alchemy.

 

and this:

 

On 23/07/2021 at 10:14 AM, Nuralshamal said:

The combination of standing for long times in particular postures with merciless continued breath holding activates and builds your qi.

 

Breath holding is not the 'secret key ingredient to alchemy'...

 

Just follow the methods from your teachers - if there's breath holding in the method, then do that... if there's no breath holding, then don't do that.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

In most of my responses, you can see I actually agree with many of the things being said.

 

Similarly the issue around 'jing is basically xxxx':

 

On 23/07/2021 at 10:14 AM, Nuralshamal said:

semen into energy

 

On 23/07/2021 at 10:14 AM, Nuralshamal said:

"jing" (simply meaning the physical body)

 

There's a reason they call it Jing - and not 'semen' or 'physical body'.

 

1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

In most of my responses, you can see I actually agree with many of the things being said.

 

While I appreciate that you're trying to find common ground with what people say, your way of agreeing is unhelpful in this context.

 

It's along the lines of:

 

You:      "It's 1"

Someone else:    "actually, it's 2"

 

You: "Well they're both numbers, and there are two 1's in a 2 - so we agree"

 

This is fine if you're discussing your favourite tv programs or music or your tastes in food... But with something like internal arts methods, there is a definite correct and incorrect... and getting things incorrect can not only waste people's time, but actually be dangerous.

 

That's why it's not helpful to blur distinctions and go 'meta' just to reach a common ground.

 

It allows misunderstandings to creep in - that then go on to erode the art, and potentially to damage practitioners.

 

Genuine masters teach things in the way that they do for a reason.

 

It's called 'jing' not because they're stupid and didn't realise they could've cut out all that hassle and just simplified it to say 'sperm' or 'physical body'...

 

I personally think It's best to defer to expertise - and to respect the fact that these ancient traditions have passed things down in a certain way because that's the best, most efficient way to do it.

 

This stuff is not like your taste in music - and is not a case of "everyone has their own opinion"... just as you'd hope a surgeon fresh out of medical school isn't using her own opinion on how a liver transplant should be carried out... "The liver is basically cat food... so if I just..."

Edited by freeform
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1 hour ago, Nuralshamal said:

As with most conflicts, I think it's simply a misunderstanding. That's written communication sometimes.

 

For me, disagreement isn't conflict.

 

It's not something to protect yourself from or feel offended by.

 

Make your case for your position and evaluate the other people's positions.

 

You are not your opinions or your understanding - these are just thoughts and mental constructs that will always grow and change anyway.

 

It's not 'kind and compassionate' to agree with others. Just as it's not unkind to disagree.

 

The sage is ruthless in treating 'the people' (meaning thoughts) as straw dogs.

 

This is all to say that my disagreement isn't a judgement against you in anyway. I'm glad you're here, sharing things - and you are valued... If I didn't see something worthy in you or what you're saying, I would not be replying. If I did not feel that I could contribute something worthy to you or to others reading here, I would not be contributing.

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Contrary to most of the post here I should say that in qigong you do encounter holding the breath or biqi. It is used, for instance, in Da Gong a "hard" qigong system from Chhunyang Men lineage in Wudang. But, it is not a merciless holding (as in the OP) and you need to practice at the same time some locks and hitting and rubbing. 

Whats is similar to a merciless holding is Xisuijing or Bone Marrow Washing in the lineage of Jeffrey Yuen. In his lineage you hold the breath and apply muscular tension, mostly static but in some exercises a dynamic one (in fact, if I are not wrong, he links it with the sourthern methods that passed to Okinawa and originated Sanchin kata). Here you inhale-hold-swallow and after a while exhale. When some schools use Yijinjing to an advanced stage they use the same breathing method.

So, from my experience and research, holding the breath is present in some traditions (with certain specifications and restrictions of course).

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I have also encountered breath holding in martial related qigong, mostly in primitive versions of Iron Shirt. They also included high pressure compression of the abdominal space, something that probably should be restricted to people whose arteries and abdominal fascia are in good condition. 

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@freeform thanks for sharing your thoughts! :)

So the things you disagree with are:
1) "Holding your breath is a key secret ingredient to internal alchemy"
2) "Long periods of standing meditation with breath holding activates and builds your qi"
3) Jing as related to semen, and jing as related to your physical body

Let me elaborate or clarify one by one:
1) "Holding your breath is a key secret ingredient to internal alchemy"
I shared this as a personal realization confirming what I've been taught by my teachers. They talked about it in the beginning when I studied with them, and I didn't think it was that important. Because it's nowhere in the books, and most don't talk about it. Plus, it's unpleasant and hard work.

However, when I actually made an effort to practice like that, I noticed "OMG, it really works!". I wanted to share this personal experience in an effort to help others not simply pass over "breath holding" as unimportant like I myself had done.

You find it dangerous, think it's too risky, or simply not true that it's actually an important part of alchemy. Okay, that's your opinion and experience. I have a different one. So, like you said, simply practice what your teachers and systems teach you, and I will practice what my teachers have taught me. I recommend everyone does that. 

2) "Long periods of standing meditation with breath holding activates and builds your qi"
This is pretty much the same as I've written above. It's what I've been taught, I neglected doing it because it was too hard and unpleasant, and no one else talked about it. However, now I've realized why they said that in the beginning, it really works and its really important.

However, each should practice in accord with their own beliefs, their own systems and teachers. 

3) Jing as related to semen, and jing as related to your physical body
I have not said "jing is basically semen", nor have I said "jing is basically your physical body". In each post I've written "jing is related to semen" and "jing is related to your physical body". 

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40 minutes ago, Nuralshamal said:

@freeform
"Holding your breath is a key secret ingredient to internal alchemy"
/... ... /

 or simply not true that it's actually an important part of alchemy. 

If you generalize like this, people will disagree. 

 

Evidently, people from different lineages share the opinion that breath holding isn't an important aspect of internal alchemy. 

 

More nuanced, you can always write more about which systems breath holding is important, and then the rest can fill in "this is not how it is done in my tradition". 

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Cleansox said:

If you generalize like this, people will disagree. 

 

Evidently, people from different lineages share the opinion that breath holding isn't an important aspect of internal alchemy. 

 

More nuanced, you can always write more about which systems breath holding is important, and then the rest can fill in "this is not how it is done in my tradition". 


Hi @Cleansox

Thanks for sharing your thoughts :)

Yes, you're right! :D

Let me nuance and specify, instead of simply generalizing (thanks for pointing that out by the way!) :)

Holding the breath is important in the following systems I've experienced:
1) Tibetan buddhist tsa-lung and karmamudra (Dr. Nida Chenagtsang, Tulku Lobsang, and Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche are three I've learnt from that all employed breath holding)
2) Wudang Dragon Gate, Emei Zhengong, Dai Family XinYi and Hidden Immortal Lineage TaiJi as taught by Master Zhongxian Wu
3) Genital Weight Lifting, Xisuigong, Daoist meditation, taichi, qigong and lovemaking as taught by Chiao Chang Hung.
4) Sufi meditation, including dhikr (reciting mantras), du'a (reciting prayers) and many others. It can be found in classical texts by e.g. Ibn Arabi, the Badawi tariqa, the Naqshbandi tariqa as well as the Chisti tariqa
5) Yoga, both many Yoga Sutras, the Hatha Yoga Pradipika and many other classical sources (including tibetan texts as well, e.g.6 yogas of Naropa)
6) General fitness training for improving lung capacity, e.g. swimming, diving etc.

Those are just some of the systems, teachers and lineages I've trained in, which employ breath holding as a fundamental breathing exercise :)

 

Edited by Nuralshamal

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Posted (edited)

Which of these would be the internal alchemy tradition? 

Zhongxian Wu? 

He mentions internal alchemy in TienGan DiZhi, methods heavily based on visualisation. 

Not my cup of tea, but I am sure it works fine for someone more visual than me. 

Edited by Cleansox

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Which of these would be the internal alchemy tradition? 


Thanks for your quick response!

From my point of view, these are all "alchemical" (transformative) from a Chinese viewpoint, or simply tantric/energetically focused from the Indian viewpoint:

1) Tibetan tsa-lung and karmamudra (tibetan tantric buddhist, which of course originated from the Indian sanskrit yoga tradition) 
2) All the systems of Zhongxian Wu (which have their roots in daoism and ancient chinese shamanism)
3) Chiao Chang Hung's systems are also rooted in the daoist tradition.
4) The sufi tradition as well (most words starting with the prefix "-al" are of arabic origin... INCLUDING al-chemy, alcohol, algebra etc)
5) All the tantric types of yoga employing focus on energy, prana, kundalini and shakti could in my point of view be characterized as alchemical
6) Even physical fitness training is alchemical; you build more blood, bigger stronger lungs and heart, bigger muscles, stronger immune system etc. That's all transforming your physical body from my point of view.

That's of course my point of view :)

However, I would definitively say that these three are accepted as "internal alchemy" from the usual understanding:
1) Tibetan tsa-lung and karmamudra (tibetan tantric buddhist, which of course originated from the Indian sanskrit yoga tradition) 
2) All the systems of Zhongxian Wu (which have their roots in daoism and ancient chinese shamanism)
3) Chiao Chang Hung's systems are also rooted in the daoist tradition.

Edited by Nuralshamal

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I would be less inclusive using the term internal alchemy, but I do not expect others to have my bias on that part. 

 

Good to know how you use the word, thanks for the clarification. 

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6 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Zhongxian Wu? 

He mentions internal alchemy in TienGan DiZhi, methods heavily based on visualisation. 


Hey @Cleansox,

I hadn't seen the edit about Zhongxian Wu :D

Yes, Zhongxian Wu also teaches internal alchemy.

His two several year programs contain internal alchemy, namely:
1) his 3,5 year training program called "living with the dao" (Jing Dao) as well as
2) the 2 year training program "chinese astrology" (TienGan DiZhi)

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1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

Will Nuralshamal and Freeform ever find common ground?  I wouldn´t hold my breath.


Haha - I’m very much against vagueness and ambiguity and creative ‘this is a bit like that’ in these arts…

 

So when physical fitness = alchemy… and sperm = jing… at that point I just: tenor.gif

 

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@freeform 

 

How do you feel about the breath holding that was originally part of Max´s second level of Kunlun?  Are you also concerned about the possibility of this being depleting?

 

(Feel free to skip this question if you think it takes the thread in a direction it would be best not to go.)

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

How do you feel about the breath holding that was originally part of Max´s second level of Kunlun?  Are you also concerned about the possibility of this being depleting?


The issue I wanted to raise is adding breath-holding to an existing method that doesn’t include breath holding. If it’s part of a method you’re following, then follow the method - your health and well-being is then your teacher’s responsibility.

 

If you want my opinion on how useful active breath holding is - my opinion is that when it’s contrived it is almost always problematic in the long term.
 

Breath holding, squeezing and pressurising is part of many modern systems in Asia, and I remember many practitioners being treated at my teacher’s clinic that ran into serious problems with it - then again, these guys were generally slightly obsessive with their level of practice - and this was not from yogic systems, they may have safer methods.
 

These are adaptations from martial Neigong systems. I’ve briefly trained with several teachers that use it…

 

from my experience they don’t lead anywhere beyond breaking bricks or temporarily squeezing out Qi ‘experiences’. (You either squeeze what little toothpaste you have out of the tube, or you create so much toothpaste that it naturally overflows constantly. One leads to spiritual practice, the other leads to fun performances and sometimes organ failure…)

 

Regarding the Kunlun method, Max himself explained to me that the method you’re talking about (Red Sun, right?) is draining and should only be done a few times a year.

 

Breath cessation naturally happens by itself once the beginnings of embryonic breathing are underway - there is no holding, it’s hard to say if you’re physically breathing or not.

Edited by freeform
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