Sign in to follow this  
rsalazar

Some conjecture in possible adjunctive mundane strategies against coronavirus

Recommended Posts

Some random conjecture on COVID-19, breathing exercises, other adjuncts and  immune activity.  Just attempting to think on options that are widely available to everyone as an adjunct to isolation while waiting for better countermeasures, please take with a large dose of salt.

 

Fire breathing protocol and vitamin D:

 

Vitamin D, while mainly associated with calcium deposition in bones, has a myriad of other functions, including keeping the brakes on inappropriate or hyperactive immune responses. Exaggerated immune responses or "cytokine storms" are the main reason people died during the Spanish flu pandemic of 1918 and also seem to be a major cause of death with the COVID-19. High dose vitamin D therapy ("the vitamin D hammer") can be used on a short term basis with very good clinical outcomes in cases of influenza, as with per this physician's experience:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4463890/

 

Of course, the flu is not COVID-19, but our response to both may share a common inflammatory pathway.

One other way to blunt an exaggerated immune response can be done using a modified hyperventilation protocol AKA fire breathing from pranayama or the most recent version to hit the West courtesy of Wim Hof:

 

 

 

The most impressive thing about Wim Hof's approach is that he blunted a response to injected bacterial LPS, which will usually cause a systemic inflammatory response and aches associated with feeling sick. All without taking a drug.
The breathing exercise is free, won't hurt and might help prophylactically.
 

Copper:

 

Copper (colloidal or ionic) solutions can be rubbed in the nostrils, possibly useful in early stages - copper surfaces have been known to inactivate a number of microbes

mBio, 6 (6), e01697-15 2015 Nov 10
Human Coronavirus 229E Remains Infectious on Common Touch Surface Materials
Sarah L Warnes 1, Zoë R Little 1, C William Keevil 2
Affiliations expand
PMID: 26556276 PMCID: PMC4659470 DOI: 10.1128/mBio.01697-15
Abstract
The evolution of new and reemerging historic virulent strains of respiratory viruses from animal reservoirs is a significant threat to human health. Inefficient human-to-human transmission of zoonotic strains may initially limit the spread of transmission, but an infection may be contracted by touching contaminated surfaces. Enveloped viruses are often susceptible to environmental stresses, but the human coronaviruses responsible for severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) and Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) have recently caused increasing concern of contact transmission during outbreaks. We report here that pathogenic human coronavirus 229E remained infectious in a human lung cell culture model following at least 5 days of persistence on a range of common nonbiocidal surface materials, including polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon; PTFE), polyvinyl chloride (PVC), ceramic tiles, glass, silicone rubber, and stainless steel. We have shown previously that noroviruses are destroyed on copper alloy surfaces. In this new study, human coronavirus 229E was rapidly inactivated on a range of copper alloys (within a few minutes for simulated fingertip contamination) and Cu/Zn brasses were very effective at lower copper concentration. Exposure to copper destroyed the viral genomes and irreversibly affected virus morphology, including disintegration of envelope and dispersal of surface spikes. Cu(I) and Cu(II) moieties were responsible for the inactivation, which was enhanced by reactive oxygen species generation on alloy surfaces, resulting in even faster inactivation than was seen with nonenveloped viruses on copper. Consequently, copper alloy surfaces could be employed in communal areas and at any mass gatherings to help reduce transmission of respiratory viruses from contaminated surfaces and protect the public health.

Importance: Respiratory viruses are responsible for more deaths globally than any other infectious agent. Animal coronaviruses that "host jump" to humans result in severe infections with high mortality, such as severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) and, more recently, Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS). We show here that a closely related human coronavirus, 229E, which causes upper respiratory tract infection in healthy individuals and serious disease in patients with comorbidities, remained infectious on surface materials common to public and domestic areas for several days. The low infectious dose means that this is a significant infection risk to anyone touching a contaminated surface. However, rapid inactivation, irreversible destruction of viral RNA, and massive structural damage were observed in coronavirus exposed to copper and copper alloy surfaces. Incorporation of copper alloy surfaces in conjunction with effective cleaning regimens and good clinical practice could help to control transmission of respiratory coronaviruses, including MERS and SARS.

 

Neti washes with mildly acidic solutions:

 

There may be a case to be made for using acidic solutions, such as with vitamin C and vinegar intranasally.  While the flu virus is different from the coronavirus, it is interesting to see the effects of these kind of intranasal solutions on flu virus in this animal study.  Inactivation of the virus took place within 1 minute:
Respir Res, 8 (1), 38 2007 May 17
Low pH Gel Intranasal Sprays Inactivate Influenza Viruses in Vitro and Protect Ferrets Against Influenza Infection
Paul Rennie 1, Philip Bowtell, David Hull, Duane Charbonneau, Robert Lambkin-Williams, John Oxford
Affiliations expand
PMID: 17509128 PMCID: PMC1885256 DOI: 10.1186/1465-9921-8-38
Abstract
Background: Developing strategies for controlling the severity of pandemic influenza is a global public health priority. In the event of a pandemic there may be a place for inexpensive, readily available, effective adjunctive therapies to support containment strategies such as prescription antivirals, vaccines, quarantine and restrictions on travel. Inactivation of virus in the intranasal environment is one possible approach. The work described here investigated the sensitivity of influenza viruses to low pH, and the activity of low pH nasal sprays on the course of an influenza infection in the ferret model.

Methods: Inactivation of influenza A and avian reassortment influenza was determined using in vitro solutions tests. Low pH nasal sprays were tested using the ferret model with an influenza A Sydney/5/97 challenge. Clinical measures were shed virus, weight loss and body temperature.

Results: The virus inactivation studies showed that influenza viruses are rapidly inactivated by contact with acid buffered solutions at pH 3.5. The titre of influenza A Sydney/5/97 [H3N2] was reduced by at least 3 log cycles with one minute contact with buffers based on simple acid mixtures such as L-pyroglutamic acid, succinic acid, citric acid and ascorbic acid. A pH 3.5 nasal gel composition containing pyroglutamic acid, succinic acid and zinc acetate reduced titres of influenza A Hong Kong/8/68 [H3N2] by 6 log cycles, and avian reassortment influenza A/Washington/897/80 X A Mallard/New York/6750/78 [H3N2] by 5 log cycles, with 1 min contact.Two ferret challenge studies, with influenza A Sydney/5/97, demonstrated a reduction in the severity of the disease with early application of low pH nasal sprays versus a saline control. In the first study there was decreased weight loss in the treatment groups. In the second study there were reductions in virus shedding and weight loss, most notably when a gelling agent was added to the low pH formulation.

Conclusion: These findings indicate the potential of a low pH nasal spray as an adjunct to current influenza therapies, and warrant further investigation in humans.

 

Hydrogen peroxide ear drops:


This seems like another tool that can’t hurt and might help.  Based on his observations, Mercola mentions this use of several drops of 3% H2O2 in each ear for 5-10 min at the onset of any symptoms for combating upper respiratory infections.

 

Iodine:
Here is my wild conjecture:  If someone cannot get a mask, one could apply this topically to the inside of the nostrils and the local concentration at the mucosal level might give temporary protection against viral particles that come into the passageways, at least for the time period that the iodine remains at the surface.


Iodide supplements may also be helpful since the higher concentration in respiratory secretions can also inhibit viral activity (see bovine study).  So the external use (povidone iodine) and internal use (kelp, iodide supplements) may be a good adjunctive strategy, at least on the short term.

Infect Dis Ther, 4 (4), 491-501 Dec 2015
Rapid and Effective Virucidal Activity of Povidone-Iodine Products Against Middle East Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus (MERS-CoV) and Modified Vaccinia Virus Ankara (MVA)
Maren Eggers 1, Markus Eickmann 2, Juergen Zorn 3
Affiliations expand
PMID: 26416214 PMCID: PMC4675768 DOI: 10.1007/s40121-015-0091-9
Abstract
Introduction: Since the first case of Middle East Respiratory Syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV) infection was reported in 2012, the virus has infected more than 1300 individuals in 26 countries, and caused more than 480 deaths. Human-to-human transmission requires close contact, and has typically occurred in the healthcare setting. Improved global awareness, together with improved hygiene practices in healthcare facilities, has been highlighted as key strategies in controlling the spread of MERS-CoV. This study tested the in vitro efficacy of three formulations of povidone iodine (PVP-I: 4% PVP-I skin cleanser, 7.5% PVP-I surgical scrub, and 1% PVP-I gargle/mouthwash) against a reference virus (Modified vaccinia virus Ankara, MVA) and MERS-CoV.

Methods: According to EN14476, a standard suspension test was used to assess virucidal activity against MVA and large volume plating was used for MERS-CoV. All products were tested under clean (0.3 g/L bovine serum albumin, BSA) and dirty conditions (3.0 g/L BSA + 3.0 mL/L erythrocytes), with application times of 15, 30, and 60 s for MVA, and 15 s for MERS-CoV. The products were tested undiluted, 1:10 and 1:100 diluted against MVA, and undiluted against MERS-CoV.

Results: A reduction in virus titer of ≥4 log10 (corresponding to an inactivation of ≥99.99%) was regarded as evidence of virucidal activity. This was achieved versus MVA and MERS-CoV, under both clean and dirty conditions, within 15 s of application of each undiluted PVP-I product.

Conclusion: These data indicate that PVP-I-based hand wash products for potentially contaminated skin, and PVP-I gargle/mouthwash for reduction of viral load in the oral cavity and the oropharynx, may help to support hygiene measures to prevent transmission of MERS-CoV.
Infect Dis Ther, 8 (4), 581-593 Dec 2019
Infectious Disease Management and Control With Povidone Iodine
Maren Eggers 1
Affiliations expand
PMID: 31414403 PMCID: PMC6856232 DOI: 10.1007/s40121-019-00260-x
Erratum in
Correction to: Infectious Disease Management and Control with Povidone Iodine.
Eggers M.
Infect Dis Ther. 2019 Dec;8(4):595. doi: 10.1007/s40121-019-00263-8.
PMID: 31440901 Free PMC article.
Abstract
With reports of vancomycin-resistant enterococci recently emerging in hospital settings, renewed focus is turning to the importance of multifaceted infection prevention efforts. Careful compliance with established hygiene practices by healthcare workers together with effective antiseptic options is essential for the protection of patients from infectious agents. For over 60 years, povidone iodine (PVP-I) formulations have been shown to limit the impact and spread of infectious diseases with potent antiviral, antibacterial and antifungal effects. In addition to a lack of reported resistance, the benefits of PVP-I include an excellent safety profile and a broad spectrum of effect due to its multimodal action. Studies have shown that hand washing with PVP-I-based antiseptics is effective for the decontamination of skin, while PVP-I mouthwashes and gargles significantly reduce viral load in the oral cavity and the oropharynx. The importance of PVP-I has been emphasised by its inclusion in the World Health Organization's list of essential medicines, and high potency for virucidal activity has been observed against viruses of significant global concern, including hepatitis A and influenza, as well as the Middle-East Respiratory Syndrome and Sudden Acute Respiratory Syndrome coronaviruses. Together with its diverse applications in antimicrobial control, broad accessibility across the globe, and outstanding safety and tolerability profile, PVP-I offers an affordable, potent, and widely available antiseptic option

 

Stay safe and be well
R

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe we should all start carrying lucky pennies to rub in our hands?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I made a brief chi kung video intended to help with fortifying lungs and immune system.  Utube limits me to 15 minute videos, there could be much more, but this, or parts of it, can be done several times each day.

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Virus, what virus?

 

Society itself is the real virus.

 

The Coronavirus and the Collective Unconscious
 

 

We, humanity, desperately need to slow down.
 

Obviously. :)

And this is only the start because the balloon is only going to explode unless modern humans decide to change the current economic and social model.

 

It's just a matter of time.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Gerard
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Gerard said:

Virus, what virus?

 

Society itself is the real virus.

 

<a href="https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/neurotic-is-the-new-sane/202003/the-coronavirus-and-the-collective-unconscious">The Coronavirus and the Collective Unconscious</a>

Of course:

 

We, humanity, desperately need to slow down.

And this is only the start because the balloon is only going to explode unless modern humans decide to change the current economic and social model.

 

It's just a matter of time.

 

 

 

 

 

Are you denying there is a COVID-19 virus?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you aware that we have millions of viruses and bacteria living in our bodies?

 

It's not a virus problem the current one but these are the main underlying factors:

 

1. Liver Yang rising

2. Spleen Qi deficiency

3. Excessive dampness in the Spleen

*4. Rebellious Stomach Qi & Overactive Stomach

5. Lung Qi not descending 

6. Phlegm blocking Heart's orifices & Heart Fire

*We are processing huge amounts of information. Never in our history we encountered this problem before.

Fix the above and this current 'pandemic' will be gone in a split second. 
 

Buddhists will tell you a thing or two about the Mind (and the modern one has just gone too far!).

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Gerard said:

Are you aware that we have millions of viruses and bacteria living in our bodies?

 

You have antibodies or immunity to the existing viruses which is why they dont cause an epidemy.

 

A new type of virus or mutation can and will kill alot of people.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I forgot to add:

 

Liver Qi stagnation.

 

To sum everything up:

 

A deep state of imbalance

Lack of grounding

Poor diet

Lifestyle factors 

 

Interesting the fact that China started all of this. Ironic bearing in mind that it gave birth to Taoism, the world's oldest science and one of the pillars of wisdom. 
 

Time for them to reflect, slow down and look at their roots. Communism and materialism are not the answer.

 

Good luck all.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Gerard said:

Are you aware that we have millions of viruses and bacteria living in our bodies?

 

It's not a virus problem the current one but these are the main underlying factors:

 

1. Liver Yang rising

2. Spleen Qi deficiency

3. Excessive dampness in the Spleen

*4. Rebellious Stomach Qi & Overactive Stomach

5. Lung Qi not descending 

6. Phlegm blocking Heart's orifices & Heart Fire

*We are processing huge amounts of information. Never in our history we encountered this problem before.

Fix the above and this current 'pandemic' will be gone in a split second. 
 

Buddhists will tell you a thing or two about the Mind (and the modern one has just gone too far!).

 

 


Really? Your first sentence should be common knowledge to anyone that has studied biology and human physiology in high school. Quick fixes such as what you propose are an illusion! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ralis said:

Quick fixes such as what you propose are an illusion! 

 

Same as people who believe that faith in jesus, or chanting mantras can save or ward against virus. Thats just a delusion, you can be a qigong or internal arts practitioner you will still get the virus if you dont follow social distancing and common sense.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Gerard

 

As you should know, since you love to hand out TCM herb advice here, the Shanghanlun (for those who don't know, that is the foundational herbal medicine treatise in Chinese medicine, still used today) was written during the Han dynasty by Zhang Zhongjing because there was a terrible epidemic that killed 1/3 of his family. 

 

Considering that people 2,000 years ago in China obviously did not have modern lifestyles, this indicates:

 

Epidemics are obviously not closely linked to thinking too much, the "collective unconscious," the modern mind "going too far," etc. 

 

Be realistic. 

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While it might not help with the virus, there is something you can do to help with the problems of washing your hands too much and creating a too sterile environment.

 

Dig up some earth from your garden (assuming you don't use herbicides or pesticides) and solve it in water and dip your hands in it after you wash them.

Point is that neutral bacteria from the ground are helpful and make it less likely that human bacteria get the upper hand.

 

Seems very intuitive and easy to do.

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Hannes said:

While it might not help with the virus, there is something you can do to help with the problems of washing your hands too much and creating a too sterile environment.

 

Dig up some earth from your garden (assuming you don't use herbicides or pesticides) and solve it in water and dip your hands in it after you wash them.

Point is that neutral bacteria from the ground are helpful and make it less likely that human bacteria get the upper hand.

 

Seems very intuitive and easy to do.


I would suggest a little study on soil born pathogens which transmit disease to humans. Ever heard of tetanus? Parasites?

 

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-024-1222-2_13

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, ralis said:


I would suggest a little study on soil born pathogens which transmit disease to humans. Ever heard of tetanus? Parasites?

 

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-024-1222-2_13

 

Yes I have and I do know that tetanus requires a way to your bloodstream (like a cut) and else isn't active.

I also know that previous generations, including my dad spend their whole lives working in the earth and never got sick. While living in a suburb of a big city and see people never touching the earth and wiping all surfaces clean.

Result of this is that their skin are full of human bacteria and that the balance is gone. Those people tend to have more allergies and strange illnesses.

 

There are multiple studies that show that clean houses have more harmful bacteria, fungi and parasites that houses with pets which have more neutral soil bacteria.

Everything in the world is a balance and if humans throw off a balance in a mechanistic way, the holistic mechanism will counterbalance and things backfire.

Imagine what happens if you clean 99.99% of the bacteria of your hands. Which bacteria families will grow back the fastest? Would it be bacteria adapted to live on humans or soil bacteria?

 

This advice I gave is not for people from rural areas and the soil should not be contaminated by mammal dung (in which tetanus and many parasites can live). Also I didn't say to eat it or bath in it. And to be honest, I and most people ate and played in dirt and mud as kids.

 

But of course feel free to work in your garden instead and let nature calm you down. The result will be the same.

And if you don't trust this advice, do not do it.

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Hannes said:

 

Yes I have and I do know that tetanus requires a way to your bloodstream (like a cut) and else isn't active.

I also know that previous generations, including my dad spend their whole lives working in the earth and never got sick. While living in a suburb of a big city and see people never touching the earth and wiping all surfaces clean.

Result of this is that their skin are full of human bacteria and that the balance is gone. Those people tend to have more allergies and strange illnesses.

 

There are multiple studies that show that clean houses have more harmful bacteria, fungi and parasites that houses with pets which have more neutral soil bacteria.

Everything in the world is a balance and if humans throw off a balance in a mechanistic way, the holistic mechanism will counterbalance and things backfire.

Imagine what happens if you clean 99.99% of the bacteria of your hands. Which bacteria families will grow back the fastest? Would it be bacteria adapted to live on humans or soil bacteria?

 

This advice I gave is not for people from rural areas and the soil should not be contaminated by mammal dung (in which tetanus and many parasites can live). Also I didn't say to eat it or bath in it. And to be honest, I and most people ate and played in dirt and mud as kids.

 

But of course feel free to work in your garden instead and let nature calm you down. The result will be the same.

And if you don't trust this advice, do not do it.

 


This virus is different in that we don’t have immunity to it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They may well be merit in the above theory although it did leave out a few other considerations. 

One point that needs further contemplation is that about people who work on fields are somehow less prone to illness. 

I'd imagine a fair amount of farmers and farm workers do get ill like all regular people. Citing one example of your father is just not compelling evidence to support the case. Statistics lean towards the general view that spending more time outdoors (unsure if this needs to include getting down & dirty with muck) certainly boosts the immune system. Is this enough to equip the body with the ability to ward off the onslaught of previously unknown strains of viruses? If so, how many rounds of resist-response can the body maintain before the defences begin to weaken by factors outside one's control, like degenerative wear & tear from ageing? Can't be immediately sure. Quite a few imponderables attached too. For eg, prior to covid 19, the general perception is that Italians are one of the healthiest people on the planet due to their general diet high in red wine, olive oil, tomato, garlic & herb consumption. Essentially, a mediterranean diet. Now we know to question if indeed diet relates to health, or is that simply a ploy to sell more mediterranean produce and increase tourism? Before this, the skeptics were laughed out of existence ages ago after having been overwhelmed by a tsunami of public support, just like how the world mocked doomsday prophets for the last how many years. Now it seems we are on the brink of an apocalyptic event. Its clear the Law of Probability is not called a Law for no apparent reason. Say one thing enough times and sure enough the tail gets pinned on the donkey's bum at some point. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This 'virus' or whatever you want to call it is human created, like anything else for that matter.

 

You humans thought you could go on this long without seeing the consequences of your own actions:

 

1. Sitting the whole day in front of a computer without moving.

2. Not respecting the sacred act of eating. 
3. Being glued to your mobile/cell phones 24/7.

4. Excessive sexual activity.
5. Consumerism/materialism.

 
Change the modern way of living and your 'virus' will be gone.

 

-Yin-yang

-Mind, the architect of reality and this world of ours. We are all creating and shaping Earth right now. 

 

That's all there is to it.
 

Humanity lives in fear. Third Law of Existence.

 

 

 

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Get over yourself, Gerard. 

 

Your condescending tone negates all the possible merit in your attempt to correct *us humans*. 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Gerard said:

This 'virus' or whatever you want to call it is human created, like anything else for that matter.

 

You humans thought you could go on this long without seeing the consequences of your own actions:

 

1. Sitting the whole day in front of a computer without moving.

2. Not respecting the sacred act of eating. 
3. Being glued to your mobile/cell phones 24/7.

4. Excessive sexual activity.
5. Consumerism/materialism.

 
Change the modern way of living and your 'virus' will be gone.

 

-Yin-yang

-Mind, the architect of reality and this world of ours. We are all creating and shaping Earth right now. 

 

That's all there is to it.
 

Humanity lives in fear. Third Law of Existence.

 

 

 

 

What are you - an alien?

  • Haha 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 3/20/2020 at 1:15 PM, gendao said:

Maybe we should all start carrying lucky pennies to rub in our hands?

Even luckier before 1959, when they were all copper, ie the 'wheaties'. 

Some of the masks I've seen for printing out used copper wire for that very reason, the anti-bacterial affects.  I was wondering if silver would be even better? 

If in the future, the gift of choice would be a silver cloth face mask..

 

More real.. just got some zinc & C lozenges for the family to suck on if anyone starts feeling sick. 

Edited by thelerner
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Gerard said:

This 'virus' or whatever you want to call it is human created, like anything else for that matter.

 

 

No its not human created, it comes from wild animals, and is mutated. Coronaviruses originate in bats, snakes, and pangolins.

 

10 hours ago, Gerard said:

Change the modern way of living and your 'virus' will be gone.


The problem is your lack of education and understanding. Its like you come to a person in agony on his deathbed, to millions suffering, and tell them they suffer and well deserve to die, because they watched some porn, and dont have pure hearts.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, GSmaster said:

 

No its not human created, it comes from wild animals, and is mutated. Coronaviruses originate in bats, snakes, and pangolins.

 


The problem is your lack of education and understanding. Its like you come to a person in agony on his deathbed, to millions suffering, and tell them they suffer and well deserve to die, because they watched some porn, and dont have pure hearts.

 

Exactly! It was reported early on that public health officials traced the virus to the animals you named which were sold in live meat markets in Wuhan. Nature is beautiful and deadly and many deny the deadly part.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Far from condescending. Maybe a bit pushy but my intentions are good. Just the Fire Horse energy! ;)

 

Unfortunately humans need to awaken by themselves. It's the way it is and has always been. You can't jump from A to Z by skipping the whole alphabet. Every lifetime is a letter.

 

20 years ago I was also an ignorant, fearful and prone to disease and believed in 'viruses,' 'bacteria' and also terrified of death.

 

We all have the conditions inside to change for the better and succeed; that is attain a full or at least a serious level of realisation! :)
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this