What is Enlightenment in Taoism and the "goal" of Taoism concretely? Endless cultivation?

[Fa Xin]

On 7/5/2019 at 12:20 PM, wandelaar said:

@ Rara

 

https://www.consolatio.com/2005/04/zhuangzi_loses_.html

 

Interesting how he calls death "The Great Inner Room".

[wandelaar]

It's looks like Chuang tzu isn't quite sure about what happens to the dead, see also:

 

https://www.consolatio.com/2005/05/chuang_tzu_and_.html

[Stosh]

Hi I'm a newbie, I've started to get into Taoism only recently, and beside the confusion around lineages, efficient practices, light body, real/fake teachers, etc., something more fundamental isn't quite clear to me: what is the actual goal of cultivation and of Taoism more in general?

 

All this to ask you guys, what is the so called Enlightenment in the Taoist tradition?

 

On 7/3/2019 at 8:28 AM, lightbody09 said:

Sure @Limahong , even though it would require another post.

 

I'm just saying often bliss is thought to be ecstasy, or some sort of ecstatic state, like the peak of an orgasm.

Well, in my experience it's not. I've experienced ecstatic bliss and also ecstasy (in other words in my experience there is a difference between bliss, ecstatic bliss and ecstasy), but any experience as it comes, it also goes away. There is only one thing always present before, during and after. And yes Sat Chit Ananda is a great description of our true nature, probably the best one, but it has been misunderstood starting exactly from ananda-bliss, which is normal/easy to misunderstand for many reasons.

 

Bliss is permanent contentment, satisfaction, fulfillment. No fire works or orgasmic pleasure, although you may compare it to the feeling after an orgasm, not to the peak though (the orgasmic peak is a form of ecstasy, an empty one since it does empty you instead of fulfilling you forever like divine ecstasy).

 

 

Well , ya went from humble beginnings, to refuting the response you garnered.

 

Taoism rule 42 says that's bad. 

 

What you should have said is ,

" Hi ,I'm a newbie . What is the actual goal of cultivation and of Taoism more in general?"   

and then , when you got the answer, you should have found yourself saying ,

"Thank you , that will be of great help to me."

 

Am I right ? or am I right? Just sayin

 

[Nintendao]

Empty your cup.

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Nintendao said:

Empty your cup.

 

 

[Limahong]

4 hours ago, Stosh said:

humble beginnings

 

 

 

[lightbody09]

I'm a newbie in thedaobums yes. This doesn't mean anything else.

 

I actually see there are quite some people around here who enjoy wasting their and others time, basically saying nothing, or judging, or assuming, or saying things without any experience to back it up, to say the least.

 

So I'm a newbie here, but I suggest the veterans like you @Stosh to invest their time and words better, because one of the good goals in life, and also in this place, is to help others. You must know that.

 

Therefore please, if you have something useful to add to the conversation, it's awesome and all of us can benefit from that, otherwise a good silence is greater than many words.

 

Your "just saying" and "should" and whatnot are not constructive for any type of conversation.

 

And btw my answer (in particular the one I gave to @Limahong), as anything else, is based on my experience.

That is like...how people normally do constructive conversations.

Or are you used to "just saying" things based on nothing?

Edited July 9, 2019 by lightbody09

[Jonesboy]

On 7/1/2019 at 8:27 AM, lightbody09 said:

Hi I'm a newbie, I've started to get into Taoism only recently, and beside the confusion around lineages, efficient practices, light body, real/fake teachers, etc., something more foundamental isn't quite clear to me: what is the actual goal of cultivation and of Taoism more in general?

 

I come from an induism background (I'm not indian, but I've been to India, had teachers, studied scriptures, practiced meditation, had great unexpected results, etc) and if you consider that tradition, even though nobody can't really describe well what Enlightenment is (for obvious reasons), at least a newbie can have some sort of idea.

I mean it's also called with a name and a good description which is Turiya and Sat-Chit-Ananda.

Then if you are lucky enough you experience what it actually means concretely, which is not a state of unchanging perfection where angels cuddle you and pay the bills for you lol, but of course it's pretty amazing compare to "before" so to speak.

 

All this to ask you guys, what is the so called Enlightenment in the Taoist tradition?

 

I'm asking this for 2 reasons:

1. I don't see the connection with endless cultivation, I mean to achieve what beside permanent peace, happiness, satisfaction?

2. If a person, as in my case (I'll spare you the whole story which started with a spontaneous kundalini awakening until the crown chakra and it happened out of the blue, but I've been extremely lucky and blessed, I'll be grateful forever), does feel, or "has achieved" if you prefer, permanent peace, happiness and satisfaction, what is the point of cultivation?

 

I'm asking genuinely, these are not rhetorical questions.

 

I see that basically in the end all traditions point to the same thing which is Pure Awareness, calling it with different names (Rigpa in Tibet, Nirvana in Buddhism, Dao in Taoism, Moksa/Turiya in Hinduism, etc.), so that's why I don't get the whole cultivation thing if you have to anyway "simply" dwell in this ever present Consciousness.

 

Of coure there is no end to the Evolution, it would be naive to put a limit to the infinite, but I'd say it's much "higher" and healthy to be full of love, peace, compassion, kindness, etc. compare to being able to levitate, fly, light up things, or who knows what other siddhis there are...

 

I hope I have been clear enough to give you guys the opportunity to shed light on.

 

Thanks a lot!

 

P.s. If you are wondering about my nickname, well yes I'm genuinely looking for a real efficient safe practice to see what light body actually means, especially if it improves compassion, kindness, love, etc. You are all welcome if you wanna share something  

 

Maybe this will help with regard to Taoism. I really like it anyways

 

 

[dwai]

Daoism is a nondual wisdom tradition. It's objective is to realize one's Nondual nature and give up trying to control one's life and environment, while operating within the constraints of one's mortal limitations (body and mind). Imho, there is no real difference between Hindu non dual traditions and Daoist non dual traditions. 

 

But like everything, there are different levels created by people based on different levels of limitations. So we have different sects and sub-sects within each broader tradition. 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by dwai

[Rara]

On 05/07/2019 at 5:20 PM, wandelaar said:

@ Rara

 

https://www.consolatio.com/2005/04/zhuangzi_loses_.html

 Sure, he "gets over it" fairly quickly. But could this also be him celebrating her life and her own journey through nature; a birth, a wonderful life and a fated death?

[Rara]

17 hours ago, wandelaar said:

It's looks like Chuang tzu isn't quite sure about what happens to the dead, see also:

 

https://www.consolatio.com/2005/05/chuang_tzu_and_.html

 

Or that the dead are content with being dead, perhaps. There's not much left to do than accept the end of the road, in fact, it's very wise to do so.

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Daoism is a nondual wisdom tradition.

 

Hi dwai,

 

Is Taoism more into the Path than the end goal?

 

Can the end goal be really/truly realised?

 

If I can liken wisdom to happiness, then I am inclined towards Taoism as a Path.... 

 

When I am on the Path in search of self ~ am I not likely to be more nondual?

 

On a Path in search of happiness ~is unhappiness not a part too?

  

 

If no two paths towards on  are the same, has everyone a right to his/her own path so long as it is not forced on others?

 

lightbody09 - can you please share with us your Path enlighented re Sat Chit Anand?

 

- Anand

 

[Limahong]

55 minutes ago, Rara said:

Or that the dead are content with being dead, perhaps. There's not much left to do than accept the end of the road, in fact, it's very wise to do so.

 

 

 

RIP

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[dwai]

49 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi dwai,

 

Is Taoism more into the Path than the end goal?

 

Can the end goal be really/truly realised?

 

If I can liken wisdom to happiness, then I am inclined towards Taoism as a Path.... 

 

When I am on the Path in search of self ~ am I not likely to be more nondual?

 

On a Path in search of happiness ~is unhappiness not a part too?

  

 

If no two paths towards on  are the same, has everyone a right to his/her own path so long as it is not forced on others?

 

lightbody09 - can you please share with us your Path enlighented re Sat Chit Anand?

 

- Anand

 

 

 

“On the path” is for seekers. “Being the path” is for the knowers...

 

[Nintendao]

4 hours ago, lightbody09 said:

I'm a newbie in thedaobums yes. This doesn't mean anything else.

 

I actually see there are quite some people around here who enjoy wasting their and others time, basically saying nothing, or judging, or assuming, or saying things without any experience to back it up, to say the least.

 

So I'm a newbie here, but I suggest the veterans like you @Stosh to invest their time and words better, because one of the good goals in life, and also in this place, is to help others. You must know that.

 

Therefore please, if you have something useful to add to the conversation, it's awesome and all of us can benefit from that, otherwise a good silence is greater than many words.

 

Your "just saying" and "should" and whatnot are not constructive for any type of conversation.

 

And btw my answer (in particular the one I gave to @Limahong), as anything else, is based on my experience.

That is like...how people normally do constructive conversations.

Or are you used to "just saying" things based on nothing?

 

C'mon dood, I already sent you the book. If you're not willing to pay a master (either corporeal or angelic) to deliver the goods directly, then you're going to have to build your own rocketship, and that is a long and potentially sketchy process. Do you still get your energy primarily from food? Yes? Then get the hell to work. No? Then what are you wasting our time for?

 

[Stosh]

5 hours ago, lightbody09 said:

I'm a newbie in thedaobums yes. This doesn't mean anything else.

 

I actually see there are quite some people around here who enjoy wasting their and others time, basically saying nothing, or judging, or assuming, or saying things without any experience to back it up, to say the least.

 

So I'm a newbie here, but I suggest the veterans like you @Stosh to invest their time and words better, because one of the good goals in life, and also in this place, is to help others. You must know that.

 

Therefore please, if you have something useful to add to the conversation, it's awesome and all of us can benefit from that, otherwise a good silence is greater than many words.

 

Your "just saying" and "should" and whatnot are not constructive for any type of conversation.

 

And btw my answer (in particular the one I gave to @Limahong), as anything else, is based on my experience.

That is like...how people normally do constructive conversations.

Or are you used to "just saying" things based on nothing?

So I have to explain to you why -starting out as if you have questions, and launch into instructions- means you are insincere about being a humble newbie?  You doubled down with a mix of politeness and hostility 😄 .

No it's not based on nothing..

It's right there in the title. The starting question, followed up with the critical assertion. 

I was just checking whether I was reading that right, whether  maybe you were really serious about having questions ,and if you were actually open to self examination. You aren't.

So , you just go on. You can have the win , for what it's worth. I actually do not have any answers for you. 

 

[Jadespear]

I’m going to attempt to offer some final thoughts on this question of what is the end goal of Taoism.  

 

Taoism as a collective understanding of intellectual and mental and spiritual practices is a way to cultivate oneself in harmony with the natural way of things ( the Tao ).  

 

The Tao is a word to describe everything that is beyond words.  That’s why ( the Tao translates to the way or the method ) method or way or tao is ever existent and not possible to change.  Hence first and foremost a Taoist must comprehend what cannot be changed so that one can understand more about things and how to live long happy healthy and wise through the way of their lives and the lives of everything else. 

 

Certain taoist teachings lay the process of the evolution of all life as a fundamental aspect of the Tao or of the natural way of things...In such teachings human beings are regarded highly within the types of intelligent life that exist and because human beings are born with the same evolutionary compulsion as all life is- they too must fulfill the need to evolve into a higher form.  What constitutes higher forms of human beings are titled in Taoism as immortals.  Immortal to mean beyond normal typical mortality, or said another way - beings that understand ,can express, and use the eternal quantities and qualities of the eternal and unchanging nature of the way of things ( the Tao ) in a mental, spiritual, or physical way.  

 

At the end of such an exalted developed individual’s evolution ( a celestial immortal ) an embodied being is literally able to be and is karmically encouraged to be one with the entirety of the Tao itself....such a being is not bound by space or time, such a being is able to unite and work outside of space and time in the spaceless and timeless area of influence that is the Tao itself.  

 

This type of being is one that does possess all the mystical supernatural abilities , etc. etc. 

 

...the goal of taoist internal cultivation is to develop oneself into this type of being, so as to serve as a steward of the Tao across the universes of all that is.  

 

Along the way to reach this freedom, the Tao assists and protects and guides oneself, and can even halt all progress should it be necessary for any reason.  

 

All of this is why taoists teachings emphasize leading people by being inconspicuous and not self serving - because that is a fundamental trait that is understood to be the essence of the Tao itself.  Hence why it is called “the subtle “ 

 

“ ever desireless one can see the mystery.  Ever desiring one can see the manifestations .  These two spring Forth from the same source but appear different in name.  This appears mysterious.  This sameness is the mystery.  Mystery within mystery.  The door to all marvels.” 

 

 

[lightbody09]

@Stosh Then maybe if you read the entire post, you would see I specifically said "I'm asking genuinely, these are not rhetorical questions"

This is the last time I spend time answering you Stosh. I invite you to notice that anybody else like @nintendao @jadespear and previous replies were all constructive and helpful. Thanks again guys btw.

You've actually been the only one who said nothing useful or on the topic of this discussion. If you can't notice that, what can I say...

 

"starting out as if you have questions, and launch into instructions"

I don't know what's in your mind, but if a person asks a question, this doesn't mean he/she has to remain silent, or he/she doesn't have to state something, or correct something, or give advices, especially if something is based on his/her experience. That is called freedom of expression as far as I know.

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by lightbody09

[lightbody09]

Maybe @ralis could add something to this conversation "What is Enlightenment in Taoism and the "goal" of Taoism concretely? Endless cultivation?"

Edited July 10, 2019 by lightbody09

[wandelaar]

9 hours ago, Rara said:

 Sure, he "gets over it" fairly quickly. But could this also be him celebrating her life and her own journey through nature; a birth, a wonderful life and a fated death?

 

That followed after Chuang tzu realised that life and death are both part of nature and necessarily so. This latter realisation freed up his mind to see that even after her death everything is as it should be after all. But first he was for a brief moment overcome with emotion because of her death. It would be inhuman to evolve to such a state of detachment that even the death of your wife would be felt as irrelevant. I don't say such a state of detachment would be impossible, but it would go against human nature. That certainly isn't the form of Taoism that I appreciate. 

[wandelaar]

9 hours ago, Rara said:

Or that the dead are content with being dead, perhaps. There's not much left to do than accept the end of the road, in fact, it's very wise to do so.

 

Being content with being dead is only possible for entities that somehow still exist, so this story seems to leave open the possibility that death isn't the end...

[Stosh]

4 hours ago, lightbody09 said:

@Stosh Then maybe if you read the entire post, you would see I specifically said "I'm asking genuinely, these are not rhetorical questions"

This is the last time I spend time answering you Stosh. I invite you to notice that anybody else like @nintendao @jadespear and previous replies were all constructive and helpful. Thanks again guys btw.

You've actually been the only one who said nothing useful or on the topic of this discussion. If you can't notice that, what can I say...

 

"starting out as if you have questions, and launch into instructions"

I don't know what's in your mind, but if a person asks a question, this doesn't mean he/she has to remain silent, or he/she doesn't have to state something, or correct something, or give advices, especially if something is based on his/her experience. That is called freedom of expression as far as I know.

 

No you're not.

[rideforever]

okay

Edited July 10, 2019 by rideforever

[Stosh]

11 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

There is some virtue signalling / controlling tendency in this that is not needed.

The quote box feature is malfunctioning again, - I didn't say that.

[wandelaar]

Although it is often hard to see there is some use to the comments of Stosh and that is that they train you to avoid participating in egocentric non-discussions.