Reconciling the idea of already being complete v.s. the work needed to become whole.

[ilumairen]

10 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

May depend on whether potential an inward or outward focus ?

 

Both, neither, one or the other? 

 

It's all intermingled.. 

 

When we look outward we tend to focus on form. When we look inward the focus tends to be on emptiness. But... one can *inform* the other, and it's a dance.. when it's recognized as such. 

 

Until recognition happens we tend to focus on one or the other.. mystery or manifest.. placing one above or beneath the other. 

 

Mountain, no mountain, mountain 

 

 

[dawei]

11 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Both, neither, one or the other? 

 

It's all intermingled.. 

 

When we look outward we tend to focus on form. When we look inward the focus tends to be on emptiness. But... one can *inform* the other, and it's a dance.. when it's recognized as such. 

 

Until recognition happens we tend to focus on one or the other.. mystery or manifest.. placing one above or beneath the other. 

 

Mountain, no mountain, mountain 

 

 

 

 

A mind messed

 

[Everything]

7 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

seeking inhibits being (as I experience and interpret it)

seeking smears citta with seeking, clouding simple being and unfolding in presence

with notions of other and lack, or attainment of some thing or state...

 

unfold in presence

what else is there but what is?

 

Your ability to allow your more clear perception of it, know it, enjoy it, appreciate it. More fully understand it and know it. Enjoy it. 

 

And you do that, by no longer trying to understand it. But rather flow with what you already understand and know. And if you fall, just start from where you last left it. And if you forget, start over again. From the absolute basics. 

 

You exist, you have a greater non-physical counterpart. Everything that you think has an energy frequency, and it always relates directly to your greater non-physical knowing. And your Source of being. And this relationship is indicated always here and now by the emotions that you feel, of aligned and misaligned thought. 

 

And the more you allow that alignment of being with the all of who you have become in your ever being and becoming, the better you feel, always in your ever expanding here and now. And the more that perspective is allowed to flow and synchronise the more magical your experience will be and the more effortless it will be allowed to unfold, ever so much more enjoyably. 

 

You are here for the joy of it. And the joy is in the journey. And the journey never ends. 

 

So if you rather think for the purpose of feeling, then the feeling will become the indication of your self allowed realisation of all that is who it is you really are. 

 

As simple as, staying in the present moment, and be mindful of your feeling. And reach for a better feeling. And then relax into the well being. Like watching a bird soar through the sky. And enjoying that freedom. Freedom to move and be. And experience your movement as it unfolds. And staying present with it. And appreciating it and loving it. 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

 

I've thought this at times... but it seems we're just still playing with the mind.. outward or inward.   Why not just let go of mind ?  

 Just stopping the clinging/shirking is enough. The mind is a fine and useful tool. 

[ilumairen]

28 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

 

A mind messed

 

 

A gently flowing brook babbling over the rocks. Drink for inner quenching, or listen for the soothing outer form. 

 

:giggling:

[ilumairen]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

The mind is a fine and useful tool. 

 

It is. And communication on this forum is dependent upon it's ability to form structure from symbol.. 

[Everything]

39 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

It is. And communication on this forum is dependent upon it's ability to form structure from symbol.. 

How interesting... 

 

So perhaps, the golden elixer refers to liquid love. An elixer that you drink, and then you feel love. And the color is gold... Like a pee. 

 

Or maybe there is actually gold in pee and we have to extract it and then, place it on our third eye and then we become enlightened. 

 

Or perhaps it is orrange juice. And we squirt one half in the cup, we drink. And the other half we stick unto our third eye chakra and then we become enlightened. 

 

Or rather, we have to melt gold, boil it, then allow the steam to evaporate and spray at the highest pressure into an extremely cold vacuum. And then collect the frozen gold dust particles, lay it on the dinner table. Take a credit card, and a straw. Scoop the gold dust with the credit card so that it forms a nice long line. And then, take the straw, place it in your nose on one end, and the other end, you have to hit it against the light switch in the living room, so that you become enlightened, and then you can take a nice photo of the gold dust. 

 

I always thought that it was difficult you know? It's good to know that it is way easier than I thought. 

 

So, I'm going for the orrange juice. I'd go for pee, but I woulden't really wanna drink my own pee, that is just too boring. And since I got no one elses pee, I'll just drink orrange juice instead! 

 

I can't wait to become enlightened, when I dip some of that orrange juice on my forehead. I wonder what I will see when I close my eyes. And I view the entire world through the lens of an orrange juice. And certainly, my third eye will be extremely stimulated by all the orrange juicyness in my nice tum tum. Yum yum! 

[ilumairen]

Are you stoned?

[Everything]

13 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Are you stoned?

No, I am more like a liquid. Stubborn, but more like a liquid. 

I often don't behave like a liquid should, but I am liquid nonetheless.

If you actually just stop insisting that I behave more like a liquid, you will come to appreciate my stubborness, which is totally just for kicks. I just like it how people react when they see a blub of flesh and blood move about like it was controlled by some higher intelligence. Hehehe! 

 

"It appears this oddly behaving liquid is making a sound! Does it have an inner waterfall to achieve such? Perhaps one used for consuming the liquid of other liquids, in order to gain more liquidized power so as to make these highly random sounds... Hmmm, one must wonder..."

 

Yes indeed, I am a liquid consuming liquid, using liquid to empower my liquid to speak more of liquid.

But sometimes people shove a soap bar inside my throat. And then life becomes so bubbly amazing 

*burp*

 

And that golden shampoo elixer, I always have more room for that one in my fuzzly bubbly liquid tummy. 

*burp*

[Fa Xin]

I do believe we as humans have a drive to “be better” for a reason. This usually manifests in outward forms, like achieving material goals... and many people fall short of applying this to the spiritual.

 

No sense in denying this. Saying “I no longer seek” is to me, a trap. I seek every moment of every day... I seek the union with the divine. It’s a constant turning inward. It’s not “one and done” for me. It’s a constant evolution, a constant motion and growth/expansion. 

 

Residing and non effort does not mean you are not still going places, changing and learning. It is a being (residing in...), in a dance of becoming (...expansion and change. )

 

 

[Everything]

5 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

I do believe we as humans have a drive to “be better” for a reason. This usually manifests in outward forms, like achieving material goals... and many people fall short of applying this to the spiritual.

 

No sense in denying this. Saying “I no longer seek” is to me, a trap. I seek every moment of every day... I seek the union with the divine. It’s a constant turning inward. It’s not “one and done” for me. It’s a constant evolution, a constant motion and growth/expansion. 

 

Residing and non effort does not mean you are not still going places, changing and learning. It is a being (residing in...), in a dance of becoming (...expansion and change. )

 

 

Ok you drive, I sit.

[Fa Xin]

1 minute ago, Everything said:

Ok you drive, I sit.

 

Sounds good. Just keep your orange juice at home...

[Everything]

1 minute ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Sounds good. Just keep your orange juice at home...

I agree completely.

[Pilgrim]

53 minutes ago, Everything said:

No, I am more like a liquid. Stubborn, but more like a liquid. 

I often don't behave like a liquid should, but I am liquid nonetheless.

If you actually just stop insisting that I behave more like a liquid, you will come to appreciate my stubborness, which is totally just for kicks. I just like it how people react when they see a blub of flesh and blood move about like it was controlled by some higher intelligence. Hehehe! 

 

"It appears this oddly behaving liquid is making a sound! Does it have an inner waterfall to achieve such? Perhaps one used for consuming the liquid of other liquids, in order to gain more liquidized power so as to make these highly random sounds... Hmmm, one must wonder..."

 

Yes indeed, I am a liquid consuming liquid, using liquid to empower my liquid to speak more of liquid.

But sometimes people shove a soap bar inside my throat. And then life becomes so bubbly amazing 

*burp*

 

And that golden shampoo elixer, I always have more room for that one in my fuzzly bubbly liquid tummy. 

*burp*

Yep stoned.

[steve]

23 hours ago, kyoji said:

This one particular subject has been stumping me lately, and I wanted to throw this out there in hopes that some of the more advanced wayfarers that frequent here can shed some light on the subject, and maybe clear up some confusion for myself and others who are curious about this... Anyways... here goes nothing!

 

 

How do we reconcile these ideas of already being complete and having nothing to do v.s. following a path and deciding to work willfully towards some kind of personal/spiritual development... and before I get the tongue in cheek Who is asking?  all is one typical new age sounding answer, can we please engage in a bit more of a thoughtful conversation on the matter? Of course all is one but my left hand isn't my right nor is my heart my head.

 

Is there really any denying that there are layers and levels to this all and that it does take a lot of hard work and eating of the bitter to achieve spiritual progress...  I'm sure there are levels in which there is nothing left to do and you just let the rest unfold. I am also fairly sure the people that are actually at this stage are few and far between. Not like the " doing the dishes is meditation enough folks" will have you believe.

 

It seemed to me for the longest time that the idea of already being whole,  was entirely a new age fallacy, until I was visiting golden elixir press and saw this quote from Liu Yiming..

 

“Golden Elixir is another name for one’s fundamental nature. There is no other Golden Elixir outside one's fundamental nature. All human beings have this Golden Elixir complete in themselves: it is entirely realized in everybody. It is neither more in a sage, nor less in an ordinary person. It is the seed of the Immortals and the Buddhas, the root of the worthies and the sages.”

 

The way this contrasts with statements  in other texts of man essentially being a crude animal before deciding to undergo transformations just baffles me really. If the Golden Elixir is already complete, then why are the stories of so many great masters filled with years upon years of hardship and sacrifice in order to achieve great attainments? 

 

Statements like that fail to mention that it isn`t an overnight process to lose your acquired nature in order to see / express / be what is fundamental...

 

Sorry if this post is a little all over the place, but the contrast of opinion on this subject leaves me feeling confused really..

 

 

 

My intention is not to sound tongue in cheek but I may come across that way and for that I apologize.

 

Being already perfect and complete is not and cannot be adequately captured as an idea.

As an idea it is of very little value. In fact, it is sometimes a distraction.

It cannot be done justice by the conceptual mind.

It can be accessed through skillful and patient practice but there is no guarantee.

There seems to be an element of blessing or karma involved.

 

When you experience it, all of the answers are there and you will see.

All of the classic writings of all traditions make sense and one can see precisely what they are all pointing to in their unique languages. Until then it is likely to be a frustrating and elusive topic. 

 

Communication between those who've had the experience and those who have not yet done so is challenging because there is no frame of reference. It is like describing the taste of chocolate to someone who has never tasted it or like trying to describe the color blue to someone without sight. One can describe it eloquently but the words ring hollow. It is nothing more than a subtle shift in perspective but that shift makes all the difference and cannot be forced or faked.

 

The truth of effortless perfection does not negate the truth of following a path of willful work towards spiritual development.

Both are equally valid depending on where we are on the path.

 

When you have a direct realization of emptiness (eg experience the inherent perfection of being), there is a knowing that transcends the need to change anything at all. From that perspective one sees that no matter where you are, you are precisely where you need to be. To be somewhere else changes nothing because we are no longer limited to a narrow frame of reference. I like the analogy of space. If you consider unbounded, empty space without any reference point, where is the center? Is one point in space any better or different from any other? All points are equal. Or the analogy of the sky, it has no problem with clouds or planes or hurricanes. All of those things come and go and the sky is unchanged.

 

After having such a realization everything changes. At the same time, everything is exactly the same as it has ever been. While some may dwell in perfect realization at all times, most of us bounce back and forth. The initial realization can be relatively subtle and progressive for some or sudden and earth-shattering. What we experience is determined by what it is that is blocking that realization more so than it is a characteristic of the Nature of Being itself. Eventually our daily lives go on and at some point the realization, while still informing our lives, may give way to varying degree of ongoing struggle and distraction. To the extent that we are able to rest effortlessly in open presence, undisturbed by whatever may arise, nothing at all is needed. All is well. All is, and has always been, already perfect. The instruction of the Dzogchen (Great Perfection) masters is simply "leave it as it is." To the extent that we find ourselves struggling with the fundamental "poisons" of aversion, attachment, and ignorance, the path towards continued personal, spiritual development remains important and valuable in our lives. This is the nature of the Two Truths in Buddhism.

 

Not sure if this is relevant or of any value to you but I thought I'd share.

I would suggest that the only thing of real value is dedicated practice with the guidance of a master of a credible wisdom tradition.

 

 

 

[welkin]

On 6/3/2019 at 7:27 PM, kyoji said:

How do we reconcile these ideas of already being complete and having nothing to do v.s. following a path and deciding to work willfully towards some kind of personal/spiritual development... and before I get the tongue in cheek Who is asking?  all is one typical new age sounding answer, can we please engage in a bit more of a thoughtful conversation on the matter? Of course all is one but my left hand isn't my right nor is my heart my head.

 

Is there really any denying that there are layers and levels to this all and that it does take a lot of hard work and eating of the bitter to achieve spiritual progress...  I'm sure there are levels in which there is nothing left to do and you just let the rest unfold. I am also fairly sure the people that are actually at this stage are few and far between. Not like the " doing the dishes is meditation enough folks" will have you believe.

 

It seemed to me for the longest time that the idea of already being whole,  was entirely a new age fallacy, until I was visiting golden elixir press and saw this quote from Liu Yiming..

 

“Golden Elixir is another name for one’s fundamental nature. There is no other Golden Elixir outside one's fundamental nature. All human beings have this Golden Elixir complete in themselves: it is entirely realized in everybody. It is neither more in a sage, nor less in an ordinary person. It is the seed of the Immortals and the Buddhas, the root of the worthies and the sages.”

 

The way this contrasts with statements  in other texts of man essentially being a crude animal before deciding to undergo transformations just baffles me really. If the Golden Elixir is already complete, then why are the stories of so many great masters filled with years upon years of hardship and sacrifice in order to achieve great attainments?

 

I agree with Steve when he says, "Being already perfect and complete is not and cannot be adequately captured as an idea."

 

The mere process of trying to understand what it is to be complete, perfect, enlightened, or whatever one can call it. Already taints what it is to be complete because the word/idea of completeness is created by the egoic mind, which most likely has not experienced or comprehends enough what it is to be truly complete.

 

To answer your questions though. I think overall what you are asking is, what it is you are shooting towards and is it even worth it?

 

In simplest of terms i think we're talking about free will. But what i mean is true free will. Not the free will where the mind says "no one can tell me what to think, or do". I'm talking where you wouldn't care what anyone does because you will react in however way you choose. I'm talking about the one where if you were presented with a choice to do anything, you know for a fact that the choice is yours and isn't being affected by any past influence or traumas that you did not decide to live by. Unfortunately, most of us will never get there. And fortunately, there are levels to free will and you don't need to get to the core of it to see the benefits, which I'm sure you already know.

 

There are also sacrifices one may need to make to get to that core. Most people are trying to reach enlightenment or the idea of completeness, but they want to reach it along with much of their identity, personality, characteristics, and opinions. It's not wrong to not want to lose that which you like about yourself. But i will say that that alone can prevent one from getting to that end goal, or even progressing past what was thought possible. The ego blocks the way. However, it's also not necessarily about losing those things, but more of the willing to let those things go so that you can take a step to observe and then make an actual conscious choice that those things are what you want about yourself. An example of something simple but incredibly important would be how one interacts with others. The regular senses are deceiving. There is much more going on than a simple conversation that consists of words, gestures, reactions, etc. Everything good or bad we think we do may have hidden reasons that we're not aware of. Reasons that can reflect in the tiniest of details of our actions. And yet most of us believe we  know why we do most things. We don't.

 

Ultimately, what we are trying to do is to get past the influences in our lives that formed unwanted parts of identity/ego, and be able to decide what we want to do whether it be to be in silence or to dance wildly. But only by choice, not the influences of others or things. The influences of family, and even more specifically parents would probably be nearer to the core of where one needs to go to cut those ties. Not to mention the traumas and memories or connections to ancestors that we have (probably deeply rooted in our biology)

 

Most of us in reality will never reach that end thing we want, because most of us are not willing to sacrifice and do what it takes to get there. That's why it's important to understand what it may take to get to the end. But what we can do in this lifetime is peel more unconscious layers than we have added, so that we can maybe start at a further step in the next life.

 

Quote

“Golden Elixir is another name for one’s fundamental nature. There is no other Golden Elixir outside one's fundamental nature. All human beings have this Golden Elixir complete in themselves: it is entirely realized in everybody. It is neither more in a sage, nor less in an ordinary person. It is the seed of the Immortals and the Buddhas, the root of the worthies and the sages.”

 

Gotta be willing to let die or kill that which you're not. But first you gotta realize that thing you are is not you. Completeness was there before you think you decided to become anybody.That's why completeness is in everybody, but mostly everyone has it covered by layers of unchosen identity. Though honestly, not too sure if the complete Golden Elixir is in everybody. It's something questionable i'm sure we've all thought at some point.

 

[kyoji]

On 6/4/2019 at 7:45 AM, rideforever said:

 

 

Best thing to do, is spend 3 months trying to be just what you are (or however you explain it to yourself).   
The spend 3 months with an enlightened teacher and do exactly what he says working intensively.

Then you can decide.

 

 ... most people won't even lift themselves off the couch.

Being what I am is getting easier and easier, but finding an enlightened master is not all that easy in Southern Ontario I reckon!! Thankfully I peeled my ass off the couch years ago in search of something more, so I guess that is a good start. Thanks for the reply my friend.

 

 

On 6/4/2019 at 10:39 AM, ilumairen said:

 

When I was young I tucked money behind window frames, door frames, and under the carpet in my room. It was there. I knew where it was - even if access to it meant ripping out the framework .

 

What people are discussing is a bit more like this than the random ten dollar bill I'd find tucked into an old backpack, although this could apply too I suppose. 

 

Ripping out the framework.. well then one can clearly see what was plainly there - even when it was hidden away and not so very plain seeming.

 

Some know 'it's there', and some have forgotten, so we end up with varying viewpoints. 

 

It's a conundrum until it's not.. 

 

And in the example TT used, it's simply time to clean house. 

 

Thank you for your reply @ilumairen,

 

From my personal experience, and my experiences with others, I think in most cases it is absolutely time to clean house... especially for millennials like myself. We are a dysfunctional bunch almost all the way around the board, and it takes years of work just to return to a normal baseline , before you can even start any serious work. So many of us grew up with no orientation whatsoever towards the big questions about this reality, and no framework for the mysteries of life... We grew up with TV's and Video games raising us, Nestle and Frito Lays feeding us.. A microwave quick and easy approach to just about everything in life, not a whole lot of eating the bitter.

 

On 6/4/2019 at 11:02 AM, ilumairen said:

Part of the conundrum may lie in how it's being phrased:

 

 

What changes if we use the phrase "to recognize" or "to realize" in place of "to become" and the word "with" instead of "v.s."? 

 

Rewritten:

 

Reconciling the idea of already being complete with the work needed to recognize/realize wholeness. 

 

 

It becomes a little less polarized to a degree I suppose, but you have to become realized, right? Seems like splitting hairs for me personally, and I don't think it would change my approach to my practice all that much. Although for some it is probably a very important distinction so you aren't looking outside of yourself for what you will only find within.

 

For me it is important to remember however, that you need to dig through your own proverbial dung heap in order to find your Self anyways, it is not enough for me to simply parrot things like I'm already perfect,when my life is in shambles and I am still neurotic.. It is a new age trap I simply won't allow myself to fall into. I'd rather shut up and do my work.

 

Different strokes for different folks I suppose 

 

On 6/4/2019 at 11:35 AM, Pilgrim said:

 

 

These are very important points. 

 

These are the work.

 

Then what is and always has been present can be seen but unlike ripping out framework and cleaning a house we are dealing with being human. 

 

This is not so very simple.

 

Where to start?

 

Coming from Kriya Yoga we acknowledge we do not know and it is impossible to put it into words so we take up the tools we have starting with this human body and nervous system and mind.  We use these tools with practices until we clear enough away we become aware of our astral and casual bodies and work with those as well.

 

The practices are the work. 

 

The realizations and the clarity that occur by performing the work take the time they take it all depends on what the issues of the individual that need cleared up while their are many broad commonalities the uniqueness of the individual is theirs to work out.

 

Not so very simple indeed... but more fulfilling work than any others i've undertaken. 

 

My practice mostly revolves around refining my body and clearing up physical blockages through different stretching and self massage techniques, and various martial arts. I know different schools in Daoism have differences of opinions on whether to work with the body first or the mind.  Personally I think it is wisest to work with the crudest and most material aspects first and then work towards the formless. I am working slowly but surely on my sitting practice, but like most I imagine that is where I make the most excuses for myself and have not been the most consistent. I do find that great movement can certainly lead to profound stillness, so the more I move and move with quality, the easier time I have with my sitting. Especially when I am feeling loose and limber. I was a competitive athlete for years and had many of little aches and pains that naturally come with specializing in specific sports / physical practices and overdoing one particular thing..

 

and, As far as your last sentence goes i wholeheartedly agree.  Everyones karmic load is different and unique, and  although there are definitely similarities on the path for all, there will always be disparities in these karmic loads. There is also always disparity in who is doing more work, and work of a high quality, so naturally results will always  vary. You only get what you're willing to give.

 

Thanks for your thought felt reply.

 

On 6/4/2019 at 11:49 AM, dwai said:

The irony of Maya is that our minds attach to percepts and concepts very easily, which take us outwards, and away from our true nature. When the mind turns back in, it finds its source is exactly what it was looking for all along, and it is always present, even during the periods of seeking.

Thus, there was never a moment when we were not complete. Yet, there is the "traversal" that seems to take place from outward attention to inward attention.

 

Eventually we realize that both the outward and the inward attention is observed by the one who is always complete  

 

Better pack lightly, it's too long of a traversal to fare with baggage 

 

I just think that this emphasis on saying that "you're already complete" can hinder the progress of lazy people who would rather smoke pot all day, and live a neurotic and dysfunctional life and never do any work because they are all already perfect and shouldn't change a thing... I mean if this is your choice I can respect your right to choose even if I think the choice is downright sad, but these people will preach this your already perfect mumbo jumbo and not have a damn shred of experiential knowing.

 

Does anybody else feel this way about such statements or is it just me? I don't think they are ultimately useful for most seekers.

 

Also, to be clear, I am not implying in any way shape or form that you are just repeating some spiritual saying you read in a new agey book. I follow your posting often enough to know that you have most definitely have a practice and are a man of high degree. I just think some young hippies who have read an eckhart tolle book or two hear these kinds of lines (as true as they may be ) and eat it up as an excuse to stay in the rut they're in..  

 

Thanks for your reply, my friend.

On 6/4/2019 at 12:14 PM, King Jade said:

 

 

It's actually quite simple, I don't have it, if it takes 200 years to find it, when I needed/wanted/could have it right now, I don't have it, it's not even mine 

 

Maybe is it akin to potential of having it, .potential of becoming something., although you're not really it right now and it's nowhere to be found right now?

 

(and now we engage in word games)

 

 

I agree more so with this line of thinking, because I think it is a lot more useful to know that you've got your work cut out for you at the beginning. Of course at the end there might a great AHA moment, where you do have the experiential realization that you were always complete, but how many people who repeat these lines have actually attained anything at all? 1 in 100? 1000? 10000? 

 

It is all only potential until you find it within you.

On 6/4/2019 at 12:53 PM, Fa Xin said:

Being, in a dance of becoming. 

Short and sweet. I love it.

[ilumairen]

7 minutes ago, kyoji said:

I'd rather shut up and do my work.

 

For me the phrase is, "park my ass." 

 

Thank you for the well thought out and illuminating reply.

 

Warm regards and best wishes

[kyoji]

On 6/4/2019 at 5:26 PM, Fa Xin said:

I do believe we as humans have a drive to “be better” for a reason. This usually manifests in outward forms, like achieving material goals... and many people fall short of applying this to the spiritual.

 

No sense in denying this. Saying “I no longer seek” is to me, a trap. I seek every moment of every day... I seek the union with the divine. It’s a constant turning inward. It’s not “one and done” for me. It’s a constant evolution, a constant motion and growth/expansion. 

 

Residing and non effort does not mean you are not still going places, changing and learning. It is a being (residing in...), in a dance of becoming (...expansion and change. )

 

 

 If there is not a constant evolution , constant movement, it probably has nothing to do with daoism or following the razor edged path as far as I am concerned. The only constant is change. Better to fare the sea with skill,than wash up on an island because you never learned to swim, only to get eaten alive by savages. But whatever floats your boat

 

On 6/4/2019 at 10:43 PM, steve said:

 

My intention is not to sound tongue in cheek but I may come across that way and for that I apologize.

 

Being already perfect and complete is not and cannot be adequately captured as an idea.

As an idea it is of very little value. In fact, it is sometimes a distraction.

It cannot be done justice by the conceptual mind.

It can be accessed through skillful and patient practice but there is no guarantee.

There seems to be an element of blessing or karma involved.

 

When you experience it, all of the answers are there and you will see.

All of the classic writings of all traditions make sense and one can see precisely what they are all pointing to in their unique languages. Until then it is likely to be a frustrating and elusive topic. 

 

Communication between those who've had the experience and those who have not yet done so is challenging because there is no frame of reference. It is like describing the taste of chocolate to someone who has never tasted it or like trying to describe the color blue to someone without sight. One can describe it eloquently but the words ring hollow. It is nothing more than a subtle shift in perspective but that shift makes all the difference and cannot be forced or faked.

 

The truth of effortless perfection does not negate the truth of following a path of willful work towards spiritual development.

Both are equally valid depending on where we are on the path.

 

When you have a direct realization of emptiness (eg experience the inherent perfection of being), there is a knowing that transcends the need to change anything at all. From that perspective one sees that no matter where you are, you are precisely where you need to be. To be somewhere else changes nothing because we are no longer limited to a narrow frame of reference. I like the analogy of space. If you consider unbounded, empty space without any reference point, where is the center? Is one point in space any better or different from any other? All points are equal. Or the analogy of the sky, it has no problem with clouds or planes or hurricanes. All of those things come and go and the sky is unchanged.

 

After having such a realization everything changes. At the same time, everything is exactly the same as it has ever been. While some may dwell in perfect realization at all times, most of us bounce back and forth. The initial realization can be relatively subtle and progressive for some or sudden and earth-shattering. What we experience is determined by what it is that is blocking that realization more so than it is a characteristic of the Nature of Being itself. Eventually our daily lives go on and at some point the realization, while still informing our lives, may give way to varying degree of ongoing struggle and distraction. To the extent that we are able to rest effortlessly in open presence, undisturbed by whatever may arise, nothing at all is needed. All is well. All is, and has always been, already perfect. The instruction of the Dzogchen (Great Perfection) masters is simply "leave it as it is." To the extent that we find ourselves struggling with the fundamental "poisons" of aversion, attachment, and ignorance, the path towards continued personal, spiritual development remains important and valuable in our lives. This is the nature of the Two Truths in Buddhism.

 

Not sure if this is relevant or of any value to you but I thought I'd share.

I would suggest that the only thing of real value is dedicated practice with the guidance of a master of a credible wisdom tradition.

 

 

 

 

This is not only relevant to me, but also of great value, thanks for sharing. I don't really have much to say, you just said it all it seems. Going to come back to this post a few more times and let it soak in.

Thank you @steve

On 6/12/2019 at 4:15 AM, welkin said:

 

Most of us in reality will never reach that end thing we want, because most of us are not willing to sacrifice and do what it takes to get there. That's why it's important to understand what it may take to get to the end. But what we can do in this lifetime is peel more unconscious layers than we have added, so that we can maybe start at a further step in the next life.

 

 

Gotta be willing to let die or kill that which you're not. But first you gotta realize that thing you are is not you. Completeness was there before you think you decided to become anybody.That's why completeness is in everybody, but mostly everyone has it covered by layers of unchosen identity. Though honestly, not too sure if the complete Golden Elixir is in everybody. It's something questionable i'm sure we've all thought at some point.

 

 

Another great post all around. You outdid yourself, thank you kindly for the reply. Cleared up a few things for me 

 

[kyoji]

2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

For me the phrase is, "park my ass." 

 

Thank you for the well thought out and illuminating reply.

 

Warm regards and best wishes

that works too  hehe thank you friend, enjoy your weekend.

[dwai]

 

15 hours ago, kyoji said:

 

Better pack lightly, it's too long of a traversal to fare with baggage 

 

I just think that this emphasis on saying that "you're already complete" can hinder the progress of lazy people who would rather smoke pot all day, and live a neurotic and dysfunctional life and never do any work because they are all already perfect and shouldn't change a thing... I mean if this is your choice I can respect your right to choose even if I think the choice is downright sad, but these people will preach this your already perfect mumbo jumbo and not have a damn shred of experiential knowing.

 

Does anybody else feel this way about such statements or is it just me? I don't think they are ultimately useful for most seekers.

 

Also, to be clear, I am not implying in any way shape or form that you are just repeating some spiritual saying you read in a new agey book. I follow your posting often enough to know that you have most definitely have a practice and are a man of high degree. I just think some young hippies who have read an eckhart tolle book or two hear these kinds of lines (as true as they may be ) and eat it up as an excuse to stay in the rut they're in..  

The assumption is that there is an "other" Self that you need to discover, apart from your "current self". The other Self is awesome, wonderful, peaceful, blissful and enlightened. The current self is ridiculous, pathetic, weak, always suffering, etc etc

 

There is no other self. There is only the Self. Liberation is not anywhere else but right here. Liberation is not in some other time, but right now. Right here, right now. That should be the mantra.

 

If someone smokes pot and realizes this (and it is possible to do so, but the realization doesn't last as the old habits of the acquired mind come back after the "high" is gone), they will eventually have to turn on to a more wholesome path. I personally know one who went down this path and eventually stopped all that and now leads a wholesome life, does selfless service etc. 

 

Eckhart Tolle is perfectly capable of pointing the seeker to that which he/she is seeking. I think what is being missed is that not every one is born with the same karma. Some have had enough "doing" in their previous lifetime(s), that just a little nudge is sufficient. Others have to work a bit hard to clean up that acquired mind. 

 

All the work is only for cleaning up the mind. That is all. Realization is already there. Clean up the mind, realize what you truly are.  Simple formula. And it works too...if one is sincere in their seeking, and has an empty cup.

 

Many people get irritated, some even incensed upon reading what I just wrote. But it doesn't change the fact that it is the truth...

 

 

 

[Pilgrim]

Here is the real gasser!

 

What if ?

 

What If?

 

What if Everyone really is already enlightened and part of the deal of being born human is that the animal body and the mind cannot express the full divinity without maturity if the mind, the etheric double and this is the reason for birth in the first place schooling on the often times harsh material plane.

 

After all the mind and the body are codependent and arise as one but the mind is quasi inter dimensional capable of more than any physical or astral body even capable of ceasing in the casual realm.

 

So here the really bright ones came up with many paths to the same mountain top using what is available.

 

The body, The mind the etheric body or astral and work their way back to their divinity while still incarnate.

 

This is how we get the examples like Jesus, Buddha, Tapihritsa, and even more astounding showy ones like Trilanga Swami Who was so well documented for hundreds of years defying the very laws of nature.

 

Clearly these beings went way beyond mere enlightenment as it was but a step on the way to something even more.

 

I rather think the way I outlined it is the case and it takes allot of work or time as in millions of reincarnations as a human  to improve.

 

Who knows how many just to have the desire to become more to entertain the very notion of enlightenment or the desire for it.

 

How many lifetimes more once even a small measure of enlightenment to even care to go further for the whole enchilada?

 

Might some not rather enjoy being human and being here in their demigod state of awareness?

 

Some seem to get enlightenment rather swiftly and declare we are already enlightened.

 

Then others mistakenly believe oh it is just shifting your point of view.

 

Seems to me the ones claiming these things are clever and witty and know how to spin a story and offer an attractive them and framework.

 

I have even seen one who wrote a book and it was good and there was nothing left to say.

 

The book became popular as did his odd appearance and personality and against all common sense the author a person with mental illness became respected.

 

Strange how that worked out.

 

Then upon seeing the dollars rolling in even more books were written rehashing shit from different angles.

 

One word comes to mind.

 

Fraud.

 

So we have many root traditions both old and new to work with, some very inviting and others more selective and a fine sprinkling of flawed teachers in all and in some cases down right frauds.

 

My advice if you want the full enchilada be careful how you approach any path do it with eyes and ears open and a healthy dollop if common sense every morning with your coffee or tea.

 

Be alert keep your ears pricked up and be like an outdoor cat ready to bolt. Life is to short to waste on frauds and those peddling a poisoned dharma.

 

If it seems too good to be true it usually is.🎣

 

Reach out with your feeling nature and use your way seeking discriminating mind.🧐

 

After all you all ready know all you have to do is give yourself permission to admit it.🌎😁

 

[thelerner]

We're whole, but maybe it's a tiny kind of wholeness. Our circle is too small, filled with Me me mes and what we seek is a bigger circle, with lines less distinct. 

 

[C T]

The wholeness of a knife lies in its sharpness. 

 

A knife does not sharpen itself - it needs contact with a whetstone, yes? 

 

In this contact three exhaustions occur -

the exhaustion of the whetstone, 

 the exhaustion of the metal

and the exhaustion of effort. 

 

In this is completeness understood.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spotless]

Consider being less judgmental towards the idea of New Age.

 

It is sorting out into the present a highly ridgidized past of hardened religions and absurd barriers to energetic realization. A certain fearlessness if a bit too easy sounding - but far more on track in open useful language than the fear based and all virgin born templates.