kyoji

Reconciling the idea of already being complete v.s. the work needed to become whole.

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10 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

May depend on whether potential an inward or outward focus ?

 

Both, neither, one or the other? 

 

It's all intermingled.. 

 

When we look outward we tend to focus on form. When we look inward the focus tends to be on emptiness. But... one can *inform* the other, and it's a dance.. when it's recognized as such. 

 

Until recognition happens we tend to focus on one or the other.. mystery or manifest.. placing one above or beneath the other. 

 

Mountain, no mountain, mountain 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Both, neither, one or the other? 

 

It's all intermingled.. 

 

When we look outward we tend to focus on form. When we look inward the focus tends to be on emptiness. But... one can *inform* the other, and it's a dance.. when it's recognized as such. 

 

Until recognition happens we tend to focus on one or the other.. mystery or manifest.. placing one above or beneath the other. 

 

Mountain, no mountain, mountain 

 

 

 

:)

 

A mind messed :P

 

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7 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

seeking inhibits being (as I experience and interpret it)

seeking smears citta with seeking, clouding simple being and unfolding in presence

with notions of other and lack, or attainment of some thing or state...

 

unfold in presence

what else is there but what is?

 

Your ability to allow your more clear perception of it, know it, enjoy it, appreciate it. More fully understand it and know it. Enjoy it. 

 

And you do that, by no longer trying to understand it. But rather flow with what you already understand and know. And if you fall, just start from where you last left it. And if you forget, start over again. From the absolute basics. 

 

You exist, you have a greater non-physical counterpart. Everything that you think has an energy frequency, and it always relates directly to your greater non-physical knowing. And your Source of being. And this relationship is indicated always here and now by the emotions that you feel, of aligned and misaligned thought. 

 

And the more you allow that alignment of being with the all of who you have become in your ever being and becoming, the better you feel, always in your ever expanding here and now. And the more that perspective is allowed to flow and synchronise the more magical your experience will be and the more effortless it will be allowed to unfold, ever so much more enjoyably. 

 

You are here for the joy of it. And the joy is in the journey. And the journey never ends. 

 

So if you rather think for the purpose of feeling, then the feeling will become the indication of your self allowed realisation of all that is who it is you really are. 

 

As simple as, staying in the present moment, and be mindful of your feeling. And reach for a better feeling. And then relax into the well being. Like watching a bird soar through the sky. And enjoying that freedom. Freedom to move and be. And experience your movement as it unfolds. And staying present with it. And appreciating it and loving it. 

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1 hour ago, dawei said:

 

I've thought this at times... but it seems we're just still playing with the mind.. outward or inward.   Why not just let go of mind ?  

:) Just stopping the clinging/shirking is enough. The mind is a fine and useful tool. 

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28 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

:)

 

A mind messed :P

 

 

A gently flowing brook babbling over the rocks. Drink for inner quenching, or listen for the soothing outer form. 

 

:giggling:

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14 minutes ago, dwai said:

The mind is a fine and useful tool. 

 

It is. And communication on this forum is dependent upon it's ability to form structure from symbol.. 

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39 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

It is. And communication on this forum is dependent upon it's ability to form structure from symbol.. 

How interesting... 

 

So perhaps, the golden elixer refers to liquid love. An elixer that you drink, and then you feel love. And the color is gold... Like a pee. 

 

Or maybe there is actually gold in pee and we have to extract it and then, place it on our third eye and then we become enlightened. 

 

Or perhaps it is orrange juice. And we squirt one half in the cup, we drink. And the other half we stick unto our third eye chakra and then we become enlightened. 

 

Or rather, we have to melt gold, boil it, then allow the steam to evaporate and spray at the highest pressure into an extremely cold vacuum. And then collect the frozen gold dust particles, lay it on the dinner table. Take a credit card, and a straw. Scoop the gold dust with the credit card so that it forms a nice long line. And then, take the straw, place it in your nose on one end, and the other end, you have to hit it against the light switch in the living room, so that you become enlightened, and then you can take a nice photo of the gold dust. 

 

I always thought that it was difficult you know? It's good to know that it is way easier than I thought. 

 

So, I'm going for the orrange juice. I'd go for pee, but I woulden't really wanna drink my own pee, that is just too boring. And since I got no one elses pee, I'll just drink orrange juice instead! 

 

I can't wait to become enlightened, when I dip some of that orrange juice on my forehead. I wonder what I will see when I close my eyes. And I view the entire world through the lens of an orrange juice. And certainly, my third eye will be extremely stimulated by all the orrange juicyness in my nice tum tum. Yum yum! 

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13 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Are you stoned?

No, I am more like a liquid. Stubborn, but more like a liquid. 

I often don't behave like a liquid should, but I am liquid nonetheless.

If you actually just stop insisting that I behave more like a liquid, you will come to appreciate my stubborness, which is totally just for kicks. I just like it how people react when they see a blub of flesh and blood move about like it was controlled by some higher intelligence. Hehehe! :lol:

 

"It appears this oddly behaving liquid is making a sound! Does it have an inner waterfall to achieve such? Perhaps one used for consuming the liquid of other liquids, in order to gain more liquidized power so as to make these highly random sounds... Hmmm, one must wonder..."

 

Yes indeed, I am a liquid consuming liquid, using liquid to empower my liquid to speak more of liquid.

But sometimes people shove a soap bar inside my throat. And then life becomes so bubbly amazing :wub:

*burp*

 

And that golden shampoo elixer, I always have more room for that one in my fuzzly bubbly liquid tummy. B)

*burp*

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I do believe we as humans have a drive to “be better” for a reason. This usually manifests in outward forms, like achieving material goals... and many people fall short of applying this to the spiritual.

 

No sense in denying this. Saying “I no longer seek” is to me, a trap. I seek every moment of every day... I seek the union with the divine. It’s a constant turning inward. It’s not “one and done” for me. It’s a constant evolution, a constant motion and growth/expansion. 

 

Residing and non effort does not mean you are not still going places, changing and learning. It is a being (residing in...), in a dance of becoming (...expansion and change. )

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

I do believe we as humans have a drive to “be better” for a reason. This usually manifests in outward forms, like achieving material goals... and many people fall short of applying this to the spiritual.

 

No sense in denying this. Saying “I no longer seek” is to me, a trap. I seek every moment of every day... I seek the union with the divine. It’s a constant turning inward. It’s not “one and done” for me. It’s a constant evolution, a constant motion and growth/expansion. 

 

Residing and non effort does not mean you are not still going places, changing and learning. It is a being (residing in...), in a dance of becoming (...expansion and change. )

 

 

Ok you drive, I sit.

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1 minute ago, Everything said:

Ok you drive, I sit.

 

Sounds good. Just keep your orange juice at home...

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1 minute ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Sounds good. Just keep your orange juice at home...

I agree completely.

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53 minutes ago, Everything said:

No, I am more like a liquid. Stubborn, but more like a liquid. 

I often don't behave like a liquid should, but I am liquid nonetheless.

If you actually just stop insisting that I behave more like a liquid, you will come to appreciate my stubborness, which is totally just for kicks. I just like it how people react when they see a blub of flesh and blood move about like it was controlled by some higher intelligence. Hehehe! :lol:

 

"It appears this oddly behaving liquid is making a sound! Does it have an inner waterfall to achieve such? Perhaps one used for consuming the liquid of other liquids, in order to gain more liquidized power so as to make these highly random sounds... Hmmm, one must wonder..."

 

Yes indeed, I am a liquid consuming liquid, using liquid to empower my liquid to speak more of liquid.

But sometimes people shove a soap bar inside my throat. And then life becomes so bubbly amazing :wub:

*burp*

 

And that golden shampoo elixer, I always have more room for that one in my fuzzly bubbly liquid tummy. B)

*burp*

Yep stoned.

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23 hours ago, kyoji said:

This one particular subject has been stumping me lately, and I wanted to throw this out there in hopes that some of the more advanced wayfarers that frequent here can shed some light on the subject, and maybe clear up some confusion for myself and others who are curious about this... Anyways... here goes nothing!

 

 

How do we reconcile these ideas of already being complete and having nothing to do v.s. following a path and deciding to work willfully towards some kind of personal/spiritual development... and before I get the tongue in cheek Who is asking all is one typical new age sounding answer, can we please engage in a bit more of a thoughtful conversation on the matter? Of course all is one but my left hand isn't my right nor is my heart my head.

 

Is there really any denying that there are layers and levels to this all and that it does take a lot of hard work and eating of the bitter to achieve spiritual progress...  I'm sure there are levels in which there is nothing left to do and you just let the rest unfold. I am also fairly sure the people that are actually at this stage are few and far between. Not like the " doing the dishes is meditation enough folks" will have you believe.

 

It seemed to me for the longest time that the idea of already being whole,  was entirely a new age fallacy, until I was visiting golden elixir press and saw this quote from Liu Yiming..

 

“Golden Elixir is another name for one’s fundamental nature. There is no other Golden Elixir outside one's fundamental nature. All human beings have this Golden Elixir complete in themselves: it is entirely realized in everybody. It is neither more in a sage, nor less in an ordinary person. It is the seed of the Immortals and the Buddhas, the root of the worthies and the sages.”

 

The way this contrasts with statements  in other texts of man essentially being a crude animal before deciding to undergo transformations just baffles me really. If the Golden Elixir is already complete, then why are the stories of so many great masters filled with years upon years of hardship and sacrifice in order to achieve great attainments? 

 

Statements like that fail to mention that it isn`t an overnight process to lose your acquired nature in order to see / express / be what is fundamental...

 

Sorry if this post is a little all over the place, but the contrast of opinion on this subject leaves me feeling confused really..

 

 

 

My intention is not to sound tongue in cheek but I may come across that way and for that I apologize.

 

Being already perfect and complete is not and cannot be adequately captured as an idea.

As an idea it is of very little value. In fact, it is sometimes a distraction.

It cannot be done justice by the conceptual mind.

It can be accessed through skillful and patient practice but there is no guarantee.

There seems to be an element of blessing or karma involved.

 

When you experience it, all of the answers are there and you will see.

All of the classic writings of all traditions make sense and one can see precisely what they are all pointing to in their unique languages. Until then it is likely to be a frustrating and elusive topic. 

 

Communication between those who've had the experience and those who have not yet done so is challenging because there is no frame of reference. It is like describing the taste of chocolate to someone who has never tasted it or like trying to describe the color blue to someone without sight. One can describe it eloquently but the words ring hollow. It is nothing more than a subtle shift in perspective but that shift makes all the difference and cannot be forced or faked.

 

The truth of effortless perfection does not negate the truth of following a path of willful work towards spiritual development.

Both are equally valid depending on where we are on the path.

 

When you have a direct realization of emptiness (eg experience the inherent perfection of being), there is a knowing that transcends the need to change anything at all. From that perspective one sees that no matter where you are, you are precisely where you need to be. To be somewhere else changes nothing because we are no longer limited to a narrow frame of reference. I like the analogy of space. If you consider unbounded, empty space without any reference point, where is the center? Is one point in space any better or different from any other? All points are equal. Or the analogy of the sky, it has no problem with clouds or planes or hurricanes. All of those things come and go and the sky is unchanged.

 

After having such a realization everything changes. At the same time, everything is exactly the same as it has ever been. While some may dwell in perfect realization at all times, most of us bounce back and forth. The initial realization can be relatively subtle and progressive for some or sudden and earth-shattering. What we experience is determined by what it is that is blocking that realization more so than it is a characteristic of the Nature of Being itself. Eventually our daily lives go on and at some point the realization, while still informing our lives, may give way to varying degree of ongoing struggle and distraction. To the extent that we are able to rest effortlessly in open presence, undisturbed by whatever may arise, nothing at all is needed. All is well. All is, and has always been, already perfect. The instruction of the Dzogchen (Great Perfection) masters is simply "leave it as it is." To the extent that we find ourselves struggling with the fundamental "poisons" of aversion, attachment, and ignorance, the path towards continued personal, spiritual development remains important and valuable in our lives. This is the nature of the Two Truths in Buddhism.

 

Not sure if this is relevant or of any value to you but I thought I'd share.

I would suggest that the only thing of real value is dedicated practice with the guidance of a master of a credible wisdom tradition.

 

 

 

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On 6/3/2019 at 7:27 PM, kyoji said:

How do we reconcile these ideas of already being complete and having nothing to do v.s. following a path and deciding to work willfully towards some kind of personal/spiritual development... and before I get the tongue in cheek Who is asking all is one typical new age sounding answer, can we please engage in a bit more of a thoughtful conversation on the matter? Of course all is one but my left hand isn't my right nor is my heart my head.

 

Is there really any denying that there are layers and levels to this all and that it does take a lot of hard work and eating of the bitter to achieve spiritual progress...  I'm sure there are levels in which there is nothing left to do and you just let the rest unfold. I am also fairly sure the people that are actually at this stage are few and far between. Not like the " doing the dishes is meditation enough folks" will have you believe.

 

It seemed to me for the longest time that the idea of already being whole,  was entirely a new age fallacy, until I was visiting golden elixir press and saw this quote from Liu Yiming..

 

“Golden Elixir is another name for one’s fundamental nature. There is no other Golden Elixir outside one's fundamental nature. All human beings have this Golden Elixir complete in themselves: it is entirely realized in everybody. It is neither more in a sage, nor less in an ordinary person. It is the seed of the Immortals and the Buddhas, the root of the worthies and the sages.”

 

The way this contrasts with statements  in other texts of man essentially being a crude animal before deciding to undergo transformations just baffles me really. If the Golden Elixir is already complete, then why are the stories of so many great masters filled with years upon years of hardship and sacrifice in order to achieve great attainments?

 

I agree with Steve when he says, "Being already perfect and complete is not and cannot be adequately captured as an idea."

 

The mere process of trying to understand what it is to be complete, perfect, enlightened, or whatever one can call it. Already taints what it is to be complete because the word/idea of completeness is created by the egoic mind, which most likely has not experienced or comprehends enough what it is to be truly complete.

 

To answer your questions though. I think overall what you are asking is, what it is you are shooting towards and is it even worth it?

 

In simplest of terms i think we're talking about free will. But what i mean is true free will. Not the free will where the mind says "no one can tell me what to think, or do". I'm talking where you wouldn't care what anyone does because you will react in however way you choose. I'm talking about the one where if you were presented with a choice to do anything, you know for a fact that the choice is yours and isn't being affected by any past influence or traumas that you did not decide to live by. Unfortunately, most of us will never get there. And fortunately, there are levels to free will and you don't need to get to the core of it to see the benefits, which I'm sure you already know.

 

There are also sacrifices one may need to make to get to that core. Most people are trying to reach enlightenment or the idea of completeness, but they want to reach it along with much of their identity, personality, characteristics, and opinions. It's not wrong to not want to lose that which you like about yourself. But i will say that that alone can prevent one from getting to that end goal, or even progressing past what was thought possible. The ego blocks the way. However, it's also not necessarily about losing those things, but more of the willing to let those things go so that you can take a step to observe and then make an actual conscious choice that those things are what you want about yourself. An example of something simple but incredibly important would be how one interacts with others. The regular senses are deceiving. There is much more going on than a simple conversation that consists of words, gestures, reactions, etc. Everything good or bad we think we do may have hidden reasons that we're not aware of. Reasons that can reflect in the tiniest of details of our actions. And yet most of us believe we  know why we do most things. We don't.

 

Ultimately, what we are trying to do is to get past the influences in our lives that formed unwanted parts of identity/ego, and be able to decide what we want to do whether it be to be in silence or to dance wildly. But only by choice, not the influences of others or things. The influences of family, and even more specifically parents would probably be nearer to the core of where one needs to go to cut those ties. Not to mention the traumas and memories or connections to ancestors that we have (probably deeply rooted in our biology)

 

Most of us in reality will never reach that end thing we want, because most of us are not willing to sacrifice and do what it takes to get there. That's why it's important to understand what it may take to get to the end. But what we can do in this lifetime is peel more unconscious layers than we have added, so that we can maybe start at a further step in the next life.

 

Quote

“Golden Elixir is another name for one’s fundamental nature. There is no other Golden Elixir outside one's fundamental nature. All human beings have this Golden Elixir complete in themselves: it is entirely realized in everybody. It is neither more in a sage, nor less in an ordinary person. It is the seed of the Immortals and the Buddhas, the root of the worthies and the sages.”

 

Gotta be willing to let die or kill that which you're not. But first you gotta realize that thing you are is not you. Completeness was there before you think you decided to become anybody.That's why completeness is in everybody, but mostly everyone has it covered by layers of unchosen identity. Though honestly, not too sure if the complete Golden Elixir is in everybody. It's something questionable i'm sure we've all thought at some point. :)

 

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