kyoji

Reconciling the idea of already being complete v.s. the work needed to become whole.

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Posted (edited)

This one particular subject has been stumping me lately, and I wanted to throw this out there in hopes that some of the more advanced wayfarers that frequent here can shed some light on the subject, and maybe clear up some confusion for myself and others who are curious about this... Anyways... here goes nothing!

 

 

How do we reconcile these ideas of already being complete and having nothing to do v.s. following a path and deciding to work willfully towards some kind of personal/spiritual development... and before I get the tongue in cheek Who is asking all is one typical new age sounding answer, can we please engage in a bit more of a thoughtful conversation on the matter? Of course all is one but my left hand isn't my right nor is my heart my head.

 

Is there really any denying that there are layers and levels to this all and that it does take a lot of hard work and eating of the bitter to achieve spiritual progress...  I'm sure there are levels in which there is nothing left to do and you just let the rest unfold. I am also fairly sure the people that are actually at this stage are few and far between. Not like the " doing the dishes is meditation enough folks" will have you believe.

 

It seemed to me for the longest time that the idea of already being whole,  was entirely a new age fallacy, until I was visiting golden elixir press and saw this quote from Liu Yiming..

 

“Golden Elixir is another name for one’s fundamental nature. There is no other Golden Elixir outside one's fundamental nature. All human beings have this Golden Elixir complete in themselves: it is entirely realized in everybody. It is neither more in a sage, nor less in an ordinary person. It is the seed of the Immortals and the Buddhas, the root of the worthies and the sages.”

 

The way this contrasts with statements  in other texts of man essentially being a crude animal before deciding to undergo transformations just baffles me really. If the Golden Elixir is already complete, then why are the stories of so many great masters filled with years upon years of hardship and sacrifice in order to achieve great attainments? 

 

Statements like that fail to mention that it isn`t an overnight process to lose your acquired nature in order to see / express / be what is fundamental...

 

Sorry if this post is a little all over the place, but the contrast of opinion on this subject leaves me feeling confused really..

 

 

Edited by kyoji
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1 hour ago, kyoji said:

If the Golden Elixir is already complete, then why are the stories of so many great masters filled with years upon years of hardship and sacrifice in order to achieve great attainments?

It is actually quite simple. If you misplaced a 10 dollar bill somewhere in your house, do you have it or you do not have it?

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1 hour ago, kyoji said:

 

It seemed to me for the longest time that the idea of already being whole,  was entirely a new age fallacy,

it is)

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

It is actually quite simple. If you misplaced a 10 dollar bill somewhere in your house, do you have it or you do not have it?

It seemed that simple to me too, but the amount of seemingly with it people who spew out this non sense is high..  I think I doubt my own judgement on these matters a bit too much because I am so novice. I almost used an analogy like yours in my post because I just don't get the point of saying you have something when it's been lost in the dust for ages and you haven't a clue where it is.

 

Thanks @Taoist Texts

Edited by kyoji
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Well, first of all look at mankind in society.   So many people arguing, bombing, prostituting, porning, child abuse, prozac ... and this is in the best countries.

What kind of people are these ?
So then you have people saying all sorts of spiritual things .... is it reliable ?   They are the species, warring, depressed, vain, stupid beyond stupid, insensitive and easily pleased.

 

Sometimes you walk past a beggar lying in the street, you give him $10 and he says, I don't need your money I am king of the world, before lying down in the garbage with a black face and no shoes.

 

Maybe you are king of the world as well.

 

Best thing to do, is spend 3 months trying to be just what you are (or however you explain it to yourself).   
The spend 3 months with an enlightened teacher and do exactly what he says working intensively.

Then you can decide.

 

 ... most people won't even lift themselves off the couch.

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2 hours ago, kyoji said:

It seemed that simple to me too, but the amount of seemingly with it people who spew out this non sense is high..  I think I doubt my own judgement on these matters a bit too much because I am so novice. I almost used an analogy like yours in my post because I just don't get the point of saying you have something when it's been lost in the dust for ages and you haven't a clue where it is.

 

Thanks @Taoist Texts

 

When I was young I tucked money behind window frames, door frames, and under the carpet in my room. It was there. I knew where it was - even if access to it meant ripping out the framework .

 

What people are discussing is a bit more like this than the random ten dollar bill I'd find tucked into an old backpack, although this could apply too I suppose. 

 

Ripping out the framework.. well then one can clearly see what was plainly there - even when it was hidden away and not so very plain seeming.

 

Some know 'it's there', and some have forgotten, so we end up with varying viewpoints. 

 

It's a conundrum until it's not.. 

 

And in the example TT used, it's simply time to clean house. :lol:

 

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Part of the conundrum may lie in how it's being phrased:

 

Quote

Reconciling the idea of already being complete v.s. the work needed to become whole.

 

What changes if we use the phrase "to recognize" or "to realize" in place of "to become" and the word "with" instead of "v.s."? 

 

Rewritten:

 

Reconciling the idea of already being complete with the work needed to recognize/realize wholeness. 

 

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46 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Ripping out the framework.. well then one can clearly see what was plainly there - even when it was hidden away and not so very plain seeming.

 

46 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

And in the example TT used, it's simply time to clean house. :lol:

 

These are very important points. 

 

These are the work.

 

Then what is and always has been present can be seen but unlike ripping out framework and cleaning a house we are dealing with being human. 

 

This is not so very simple.

 

Where to start?

 

Coming from Kriya Yoga we acknowledge we do not know and it is impossible to put it into words so we take up the tools we have starting with this human body and nervous system and mind.  We use these tools with practices until we clear enough away we become aware of our astral and casual bodies and work with those as well.

 

The practices are the work. 

 

The realizations and the clarity that occur by performing the work take the time they take it all depends on what the issues of the individual that need cleared up while their are many broad commonalities the uniqueness of the individual is theirs to work out.

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You are free from trying to become that which you are not. Not complete. You will never ever be complete. You will always be becoming. You are evermore free to be who it is you truely already are. Just being who you are. Yourself. 

 

And when you are not being yourself. Well, you temporarily don't feel so good, and then you will say, I don't feel so whole. 

Then simply let that go, and you are whole again. Allowing your own life force from flowing back fully through you again. 

Like meditation is for the reason so that you can be free from trying. 

Trying is thinking you are doing something you are not actually doing. 

When you meditate, you can let go of those thoughts. And then learn to walk in harmony with who you truely are and all that exists truely is in its evermore becoming. 

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7 minutes ago, Everything said:

all that exists truely is in its evermore becoming. 

 

That was the existential Sartre's argument... to me, it mean it was futile to think about becoming anything; tomorrow is a different day.

 

Haven't read him in a while but suddenly want to break out my cassette take series on existentialism.

 

https://www.iep.utm.edu/sartre-ex/

 



Sartre's methodology differs from Husserl's in two essential ways. Although he thinks of his analyses as eidetic, he has no real interest in Husserl's understanding of his method as uncovering the Essence of things. For Husserl, eidetic analysis is a clarification which brings out the higher level of the essence that is hidden in 'fluid unclarity' (Husserl, Ideas, I). For Sartre, the task of an eidetic analysis does not deliver something fixed immanent to the phenomenon. It still claims to uncover that which is essential, but thereby recognizes that phenomenal experience is essentially fluid.

In Sketch for a Theory of the Emotions, Sartre replaces the traditional picture of the passivity of our emotional nature with one of the subject's active participation in her emotional experiences. Emotion originates in a degradation of consciousness faced with a certain situation. The spontaneous conscious grasp of the situation which characterizes an emotion, involves what Sartre describes as a 'magical' transformation of the situation. Faced with an object which poses an insurmountable problem, the subject attempts to view it differently, as though it were magically transformed. Thus an imminent extreme danger may cause me to faint so that the object of my fear is no longer in my conscious grasp. Or, in the case of wrath against an unmovable obstacle, I may hit it as though the world were such that this action could lead to its removal. The essence of an emotional state is thus not an immanent feature of the mental world, but rather a transformation of the subject's perspective upon the world. In The Psychology of the Imagination, Sartre demonstrates his phenomenological method by using it to take on the traditional view that to imagine something is to have a picture of it in mind. Sartre's account of imagining does away with representations and potentially allows for a direct access to that which is imagined; when this object does not exist, there is still an intention (albeit unsuccessful) to become conscious of it through the imagination. So there is no internal structure to the imagination. It is rather a form of directedness upon the imagined object. Imagining a heffalump is thus of the same nature as perceiving an elephant. Both are spontaneous intentional (or directed) acts, each with its own type of intentionality.

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The irony of Maya is that our minds attach to percepts and concepts very easily, which take us outwards, and away from our true nature. When the mind turns back in, it finds its source is exactly what it was looking for all along, and it is always present, even during the periods of seeking.

Thus, there was never a moment when we were not complete. Yet, there is the "traversal" that seems to take place from outward attention to inward attention.

 

Eventually we realize that both the outward and the inward attention is observed by the one who is always complete :D 

 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

That was the existential Sartre's argument... to me, it mean it was futile to think about becoming anything; tomorrow is a different day.

 

Haven't read him in a while but suddenly want to break out my cassette take series on existentialism.

 

https://www.iep.utm.edu/sartre-ex/

 

 

 

You have to let your heart, emotions, guide your head, or imagination. 

The heart is the center. Not the third eye! 

 

Then you will reach true divine  INSPIRED THOUGHT. Your emotions guide you to the achieving and clicking in with the allowed flow your divine in spirited thought of your soul.

 

If you imagine and you don't feel bliss, you are simply receiving old human thought forms. There are many of those. And they will keep you walking in circles forever, if you don't allow your mind and heart to work together, infact your heart can guide you far and wide beyond anything the imagination can ever even imagine. But together you will find the effortless joyous realisation of it, and then, it will become a tangible reality you can see, taste and touch, and then, then, you can remember it, and so the imagining becomes that much more easy and so the realising aswell.

 

But at first, always begin with the emotion, and secondly, let it guide your imagination, like a hot or cold game. For every thought you think, has a direct energy motional relationship with the thought that your soul has about that very same subject. 

 

So begin with a meditation to clear your mind and emotions. Then FEEL your way to the imagination that feels best. Then extract WITH HIGH PRECISION AND CONSISTENT FOCUS, all the value there. By virtue of how it feels as you recognise it thus. 

 

And as your perspective aligns with YOUR GREATER NON-PHYSICAL KNOWINGNESS, then you feel this alignment harmonic resonance as positive energy in motion, e-motion. 

 

Then look in your reality, and feel what feel similar to that positive emotion you have identified, not what LOOKS like it. What FEEEEEEEELS LIKE IT! THAT IS THE KEY! TO YOUR FULL ALLOWED REALISATION OF IT. UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. 

 

And then your natural flow of inspiration effortlessly returns. And is allowed to flow again. Naturally and effortlessly. Wei wu wei. YOU DO NOTHING AND LEAVE NOTHING UNDONE. THE ART OF ALLOWANCE. ALLOWING. WEI WU WEI. FEEL YOUR WAY TO THE PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE. 

 

Edited by Everything

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4 minutes ago, Everything said:

You have to let your heart, emotions, guide your head, or imagination. 

The heart is the center. Not the third eye! 

 

 

I completely agree.. but read your comments as stuck in what Sartre talks about... Now your talking my language :)

 

Except I don't use most of the words you do... words and mind entangle one.

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18 minutes ago, dwai said:

The irony of Maya is that our minds attach to percepts and concepts very easily, which take us outwards, and away from our true nature. When the mind turns back in, it finds its source is exactly what it was looking for all along, and it is always present, even during the periods of seeking.

Thus, there was never a moment when we were not complete. Yet, there is the "traversal" that seems to take place from outward attention to inward attention.

 

Eventually we realize that both the outward and the inward attention is observed by the one who is always complete :D 

 

 

I've thought this at times... but it seems we're just still playing with the mind.. outward or inward.   Why not just let go of mind ?  

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Posted (edited)

 

12 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

It is actually quite simple. If you misplaced a 10 dollar bill somewhere in your house, do you have it or you do not have it?

 

It's actually quite simple, I don't have it, if it takes 200 years to find it, when I needed/wanted/could have it right now, I don't have it, it's not even mine 

 

Maybe is it akin to potential of having it, .potential of becoming something., although you're not really it right now and it's nowhere to be found right now?

 

(and now we engage in word games)

 

 

Edited by King Jade
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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, King Jade said:

 

 

It's actually quite simple, I don't have it, if it takes 200 years to find it, when I needed/wanted/could have it right now, I don't have it, it's not even mine 

 

Maybe is it akin to potential of having it, .potential of becoming something., although you're not really it right now and it's nowhere to be found right now?

 

(and now we engage in word games)

 

 

No, not word games. EMOTION ENERGY MOTION GAMES. 

 

Often people think they think about what they want, when they are actually thinking about the lack of what they want. And you will never know, untill you ask your heart, how does this thought FEEL? 

 

So for example, I can create money out of thin air. 

Hmmm feels good doesn't it? 

 

Now your mind would say, LIES! 

 

But your mind is not connected to your soul. 

My soul knows, I can take my phone, click on stuff, and buy stuff. Sort of like creating money out of thin air. And I have a card for that too. Hardly need any money anymore. 

So for me, this feels good, because it is more in alignment/harmony with my greater non-physical consciousness being knowing of who it is I truely am. And we all have this energy motional guidance of thought relating to our soul's greater being becoming and knowing. 

 

But why most people don't feel good, is because they are not paying attention to their emotions to guide their mind. And so they don't allow the wisdom of their soul that knows everything they want and where it is. We are here simply to enjoy that. But if you don't even wanna enjoy a thought that feels good, then you are giving your soul nothing to work with. Cause then you go counter to your own life force, and ignore the pain, that results in greater pain. Etc. Etc. 

 

Untill you just give up, and surrender yourself to being who it is you TRUELY are. And then you will be saying, OK soul, heart, I am now willing to listen! I am not in charge. I never was. And I DONT EVEN WANT TO BE! I AM JUST HERE TO ENJOY THIS JOURNEY TOGETHER WITH YOU (YOUR OWN SOUL) AS WE CO-CREATE IT TOGETHER! YOU ARE ME! WHY WOULD I EVER NOT TRUST MY OWN GREATER NON-PHYSICAL CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE ALL OF WHO I TRUELY AM? YOU ARE ME! OFCOURSE YOU ARE GUIDING ME AND YOU KNOW THE WAY AND YOU WANT ME TO BE WELL. OFCOURSE BECAUSE I AM YOU AND YOU ARE ME. THERE IS NO SEPERATION, UNLESS I INSIST TO MAKE ONE ON AND ON AND ON WITH ALL THE THOUGHTS I THINK THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH WHO IT IS I REALLY AM! 

Edited by Everything
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So many words everything .. your words seem a veritable storm. 

 

17 minutes ago, Everything said:

But why most people don't feel good, is because they are not paying attention to their emotions to guide their mind. And so they don't allow the wisdom of their soul that knows everything they want and where it is.

 

How a ship anchored to emotion is tossed about.. 

 

Erratic and ungrounded

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35 minutes ago, King Jade said:

 

 

It's actually quite simple, I don't have it, if it takes 200 years to find it, when I needed/wanted/could have it right now, I don't have it, it's not even mine 

 

Maybe is it akin to potential of having it, .potential of becoming something., although you're not really it right now and it's nowhere to be found right now?

 

(and now we engage in word games)

 

 

 

It certainly does have to do with potential recognition, but "it" isn't really an "it", and thinking this way makes recognition a wee bit more difficult. 

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Just now, Fa Xin said:

Being, in a dance of becoming. 

 

Arising potentialities..

 

(I find you to be a delightful dancing partner, so please forgive the playfulness of this post.)

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5 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Arising potentialities..

 

(I find you to be a delightful dancing partner, so please forgive the playfulness of this post.)

 

May depend on whether potential an inward or outward focus ?

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

So many words everything .. your words seem a veritable storm. 

 

 

How a ship anchored to emotion is tossed about.. 

 

Erratic and ungrounded

Not if you are focused, you can't blame the ocean if you decide to go there on bad weather day, for a reason or idea that didn't even feel good to begin with. And then you're out there puking. 

 

That's again, the result of not paying attention to your emotions. 

 

Now yes, you are correct, if you already got allot of momentum going in your mind, and further more so, in your life even, you have to ride the storm. But your life is not about that. WHICH IS ALSO WHY YOU HAVE ALWAYS THE ABILITY TO FEEL that your life is not about that. And when you appreciate this negative emotion,, NOW YOU GOT THE KEY! TO UNLOCK YOUR SOUL PURPOSE IN THIS LIFE! 

 

And it's as simply as saying, well... I am dizzy. I want ground. Stability. Unmovable mountain... Calm silence... 

 

And now you are aligning your thought energy. And now, on a calm day, you decide to walk your calm ground, in the calm wind. In the clear open sky full of stars for ENDLESS FLAWLESS NAVIGATION. Stars which are like unmovable mountains in the sky! and you ride that boat, as if it is sitting on a rock. The ocean waters don't even move. So calm. 

 

But most often people wait untill sht hits the fan, before they then listen to their emotions, and then they say, I want some more peace. I will focus more on peace from now on. Duhh... Do you always need punch in the gutt to know you rather want peace? Ofcourse not! You got your emotions to know in advance. And align with the path of least resistance in advance. Simply by enjoying your thinking mechanism, in the way it was ment to be enjoyed and utilized. To distinguish and focus and identify. An align thought energy, and energy motional trajectories. Then you can be one who can align with the thought of succesfully sailing a storm even, if that's what you truely want, then the focus will automatically be there. 

 

But if it's not what you want, and it doesn't feel good, then it has got nothing to do with who you really are and why you really are. then why would you ignore your own soul and the infinite intelligence that it has acces to? And just think in contrary to your own soul, and ignore your heart emotions and pain? 

 

Surely, then the pain has not been great enough, for you to realise yet, that you are an eternal being. And that you don't need to die, before allowing yourself to already be who it is you truely are, always right here and now, where all the fun always is for you, waiting for you to allow it, by allowing your mind be guided by your heart, by deliberately thinking a thought, that feels better and better, and molding it untill it feels good. And doesn't an ugly result inspire more beauty? Same with emotions. How easy is it to shift an ugly thought to a more beautiful one? And meditation, is a secret passage way, to aligning directly with the highest of inspiration, and alignment with your soul, had you not already know this. 

 

There is nothing but fun waiting for you here. Your soul has always got your back. 

Edited by Everything

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@Everything

 

Do you ever read other people's posts with an intent to understand, or do the words start arising in your mind before you've even finished reading?

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1 minute ago, ilumairen said:

@Everything

 

Do you ever read other people's posts with an intent to understand, or do the words start arising in your mind before you've even finished reading?

Yes, why? Ofcourse I am reading what you wrote. If I didn't want to read it, I would not read it at all. But the fact that I actually read it 3 times this time, makes it that much more enjoyable to me now. So feel free to write more if you wish. 

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seeking inhibits being (as I experience and interpret it)

seeking smears citta with seeking, clouding simple being and unfolding in presence

with notions of other and lack, or attainment of some thing or state...

 

unfold in presence

what else is there but what is?

 

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