dawei

[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 81

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***

The last chapter of this series is dedicated to Marblehead... he often said certain passages were still a struggle and yet, he was very clear as to his thought.   To be clear and yet also murky is the Way of water.   

 

MB often appealed to the anarchist way... yet he stated it with typical aplomb that gave an air of knowing exactly who he was, where he was, and what he was doing in the moment.  Being in the moment was his hallmark and a lesson we will cherish about him. 

***

 

To Marblehead, Peace to our friend:  

 

 

David Hinton 2002

81

Sincere words are never beautiful and beautiful words never sincere.
The noble are never eloquent and the eloquent never noble.
The knowing are never learned and the learned never knowing.
A sage never hoards:
the more you do for others the more plenty is yours,
and the more you give to others the more abundance is yours.
The Way of heaven is to profit without causing harm,
and the Way of a sage to act without contending.
 

Dwight Goddard 1919
81

Faithful words are often not pleasant; pleasant words are often not faithful. 
Good men do not dispute; the ones who dispute are not good. 
The learned men are often not the wise men, nor the wise men, the learned. 
The wise man does not hoard, but ever working for others, he will the more exceedingly acquire. 
Having given to others freely, he himself will have in plenty. 
Tao of heaven benefits but does not injure. 
The wise man's Tao leads him to act but not to quarrel.


Bradford Hatcher 2005

81
True words are not embellished
Embellished words are not truthful
To be right is not to be argumentative
To be argumentative is not to be right
To be knowing is not to be sophisticated
To be sophisticated is not to be knowing
Wise ones do not accumulate
Though intending to act on behalf of another
The more they themselves have gained
Though intending to give to another
The more they themselves are increased
Heaven’s way is to benefit, but without doing harm
The wise ones’ way is to work, but without competition

 

 

Wing-Tsit Chan 1963

81 
True words are not beautiful; Beautiful words are not true. 
A good man does not argue; He who argues is not a good man. 
A wise man has no extensive knowledge; He who has extensive knowledge is not a wise man. 
The sage does not accumulate for himself. The more he uses for others, the more he possesses of his own. 
The Way of Heaven is to benefit others and not to injure. The Way of the sage is to act but not to compete. 

 

Gu Zhengku 1993

81 
True words are not embellished,
The embellished words are not true.
A good man does not quibble;
He who quibbles is not good.
A man of true learning does not show off his learning;
He who shows off his learning does not have true learning.
The sage does not store up.
Helping others as best as he can,
He is helped even more.
Giving others as much as he can,
He becomes richer and richer still.
The Tao of heaven benefits rather than harms all things;
The Tao of the sage is to give rather than rob the people.
 

Ch'u Ta-Kao 1904

81

He who knows does not speak;
He who speaks does not know.
He who is truthful is not showy;
He who is showy is not truthful.
He who is virtuous does not dispute.
He who disputes is not virtuous.
He who is learned is not wise.
He who is wise is not learned.
Therefore the Sage does not display his own merits.
 


Flowing Hands 1987

81

Truthful words are not necessarily beautiful.
And very often, beautiful words are not truthful.
Those who are enlightened do not argue.
Those who do, are not aware of the nature of all things.
People always think they know;
but the Sage looks and talks like an idiot to men, but he is enlightened.
That’s why clever men never understand the nature of all things.
The Sage never stores things up, he remains open and yielding to all.
The more he gives and does for others, the greater his abundance.
The Dao of Heaven is sharp and pointed, but it does not harm.
For it remains with all good creatures.
The Dao of the Sage is work without interference.

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81
Truthful words are not beautiful.
Beautiful words are not truthful.
Good men do not argue.
Those who argue are not good.
Those who know are not learned.
The learned do not know.


The sage never tries to store things up.
The more he does for others, the more he has.
The more he gives to others, the 
greater his abundance.
The Tao of heaven is pointed but does no harm.
The Tao of the sage is work without effort.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, rideforever said:

81
Truthful words are not beautiful.
Beautiful words are not truthful.
Good men do not argue.
Those who argue are not good.
Those who know are not learned.
The learned do not know.


The sage never tries to store things up.
The more he does for others, the more he has.
The more he gives to others, the 
greater his abundance.
The Tao of heaven is pointed but does no harm.
The Tao of the sage is work without effort.

 

Thanks for adding this Feng & English version, as I think it states things most clearly for this chapter. The second half of this chapter is especially important for those who understand about energy and light...

 

The sage never tries to store things up.

(Never tries to store or hold energy in the body)


The more he does for others, the more he has.

(The greater the connections with others, the greater his potential)


The more he gives to others, the greater his abundance.

(The more energy he gives/shares with others, the more he has access to, and energy is really unlimited)


The Tao of heaven is pointed but does no harm.

(Light flowing through a sage “hits” others, but only helps and clears issues)


The Tao of the sage is work without effort.

(Light has a significant effect on others, but simply “radiates” - not sent)

 

Edited by Jeff
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Yes, indeed. This chapter is very reminiscent of Marblehead. 'Nough said.

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The sage never tries to store things up.

(A channel, with contact he develops trust, fear evaporates)


The more he does for others, the more he has.
The more he gives to others, the greater his abundance.

(I assume he means, flow with the whole, one to the other, from the other to one)


The Tao of heaven is pointed but does no harm.

(Life isn't trying to hurt you, nonetheless I would say personal intelligence arises in how you choose to manifest .... we can't all surrender to nothingness or there will be nothing ... somebody has to want to exist and create life)


The Tao of the sage is work without effort.

(Channel)

 

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On 3/3/2019 at 2:47 PM, Jeff said:

 

Thanks for adding this Feng & English version, as I think it states things most clearly for this chapter. The second half of this chapter is especially important for those who understand about energy and light...

 

The sage never tries to store things up.

(Never tries to store or hold energy in the body)


The more he does for others, the more he has.

(The greater the connections with others, the greater his potential)


The more he gives to others, the greater his abundance.

(The more energy he gives/shares with others, the more he has access to, and energy is really unlimited)


The Tao of heaven is pointed but does no harm.

(Light flowing through a sage “hits” others, but only helps and clears issues)


The Tao of the sage is work without effort.

(Light has a significant effect on others, but simply “radiates” - not sent)

 

 

Sorry Jeff this may be your interpretation but it is not what Lei Erh was saying.:)

 

 

On 3/3/2019 at 2:39 AM, dawei said:

The Sage never stores things up, he remains open and yielding to all.
The more he gives and does for others, the greater his abundance.
The Dao of Heaven is sharp and pointed, but it does not harm.
For it remains with all good creatures.
The Dao of the Sage is work without interference.

 A wise person remains empty, empty of preference, emotion, material possessions, etc and so is  like the Dao, because he remains empty he can embrace all peoples and all things. The more he gives to others the greater his emptiness and self cultivation becomes, and so nearer he is to the Dao.

 

The way of Heaven is to single out those people and life forms that are 'special' and so use them to help the world and its people.

It remains with those life forms it has chosen to help the world.

A wise persons work is to self cultivate into non action, seeing the world turn and evolve at its own will.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/7/2019 at 5:49 AM, flowing hands said:

 

 A wise person remains empty, empty of preference, emotion, material possessions, etc and so is  like the Dao, because he remains empty he can embrace all peoples and all things. The more he gives to others the greater his emptiness and self cultivation becomes, and so nearer he is to the Dao.

 

This reflects an "either/or" mindset. In this case - it's "either" empty, "or" full. Your words shows your preference for the "empty" half of the whole, and that is fine; we each have our own understanding of these things, and you have a lot of company in the Eastern Traditions that emphasize the preference for the empty/yin/negative  - over the full/positive/yang <-- which is embraced by Western Traditions (generally speaking) and is also fine. Either/or thinking is difficult to overcome...and people usually land on one or the other - rather than discovering that all things are actually: both, same time.

 

In the DDJ, LiEhr teaches "Both, same time" beginning in Chapter 1.

 

The Feng/English translation says:

Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. 
Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations. 

 

To me, this says that we need both for balance; and that both at the same time is the natural way. 

 

Most interpretations of Ch1, especially those done with Buddhist/etc slant/bias, translate these lines to means that one should have no desires at all, because that supports their perspective and tradition...and the remainder of those translations follow the same starting point. Your words above reflect this thinking as well; the preference for the empty, which again is fine, but it's still an 'either/or' mindset that seeks a methodology to suppress half of what is natural..rather than integrating both halves of the whole.

 

There are lots of examples in the DDJ about both, same time. 

As above, so below. Know the white, keep to the black. Sometimes breathing is easy, sometimes breathing is hard. Would you have it any other way? And so on... Other (non-ddj) ideas also reflect the both same time idea: All yang contains yin, all yin contains yang. Every action, and non-action, is one of equal and simultaneous creation and destruction... etc. Both, same time. 

 

But people will pick & choose from the DDJ that which supports their particular side of 'either/or'... and have difficulty perceiving that, as individual manifestations, we are both separate and unboundaried-non-separate at the same time.

 

 

Quote

 

The way of Heaven is to single out those people and life forms that are 'special' and so use them to help the world and its people.

It remains with those life forms it has chosen to help the world.

A wise persons work is to self cultivate into non action, seeing the world turn and evolve at its own will.

 

Today, in another thread, you said you are not returning to TDB.

As that is the case, I wish you well on your path.

Warm greetings. (-:

 

 

 

Edited by rene
typo
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Much of what has been said by flowing hands and by rene resonates with me but perhaps for different reasons.

 

When i hear remaining empty of desires and emotions, it calls to mind passages from Neiye that speak of emptying the heart-mind in order to reach experience of the Dao within us. I have understood that such experiences allow insight to the way of Dao as it works in the manifest world. It is through such insights that one can be in accord with the Dao in one's actions. As for material possessions, it is easy enough to see how material possessions ... or concerns about them ... Would be significant distractions from the work of emptying the heart-mind.

 

I don't know what the practical implications are for remaining more or less permanently empty of desires and emotions. It would seem reasonable that at least maintaining frequent contact with the Dao within on a regular basis might be considered a cultivating practice.

 

So, I don't see it as an either/or proposition, nor necessarily as at the same time as in the sense of simultaneous. I do think that the practical implication of us as manifestations in the world is that without understanding of Dao we struggle with being often times out of accord with the natural unfolding of events.

 

It would seem that the practical application would be for us to move between the two positions allowing the experience gained through the practice of emptying the heart-mind to inform our actions in the world of the manifest; that is, be in accord with time and change.

 

The part about the way of Heaven singling out people I find troubling because it suggests Heaven having a preference based on special qualities we might not have any control over. Sounds particularly un-Daoist to me. Maybe its just my western religious sensibilities getting in the way. What makes more sense to me is constancy in the way of Heaven and people by their efforts in cultivating gaining Heaven's favor only by aligning with the Way.

 

Certainly, there will be those more adept than others but I can only speak from the point of view of the common person.

 

Just thought I would put this impression out there. ;)

 

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Posted (edited)

Wonderful post, Old Friend!

May I reply more fully when next on PC?

Phone typing sux :D

Edited by rene
2 typos in 3 sentences lol

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Please do. These are the kinds of discussion that I find most helpful on the forum. How else are we to fine tune our understanding.

 

Btw ... did I understand correctly that FH was leaving? I hope not. FH has a way with words that I have found very helpful, often pointing out ways of understanding the ancient texts that are being overlooked.

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10 hours ago, OldDog said:

.....

 

It would seem that the practical application would be for us to move between the two positions allowing the experience gained through the practice of emptying the heart-mind to inform our actions in the world of the manifest; that is, be in accord with time and change.

 

Picture like a number line:    empty<-----------------------I------------------------>full

The extreme ends of the two positions are:

empty: shell existence, mindless 24/7 meditation, fully in Mystery only. Nice work if you can get it. LOL

full: complete hedonism etc, fully in Manifest only. Again, nice work if you can sustain it. LOL

 

Either/or mindset straddles the center, alternating between the two positions - like hopping on one foot in the empty - and then on the other foot in the full. As one gets closer and closer to having a blended perspective, i.e. feet hopping closer to the center point between the extremes,  the empty does indeed inform the full more often; as you clearly expressed above. :)

 

But when a tradition puts too much emphasis on one side or the other - by trying to deny or suppress half of the whole,  it not only denies what is natural - it prevents an individual from finding their own natural and blended balance.

 

Having one foot in the Manifest and one foot in the Mystery, simultaneously and neither hopping, is what I call Both, same time. Full is always there, enjoying whatever comes (good and bad) - and Empty is always there, unboundaried in full support, to inform, temper, and when needed - mitigate.

 

At least that's how it is for me.

 

 

10 hours ago, OldDog said:

The part about the way of Heaven singling out people I find troubling because it suggests Heaven having a preference based on special qualities we might not have any control over. Sounds particularly un-Daoist to me. Maybe its just my western religious sensibilities getting in the way. What makes more sense to me is constancy in the way of Heaven and people by their efforts in cultivating gaining Heaven's favor only by aligning with the Way.

 

Heaven having a preference (not just in FH's post) bugged me too until I learned that in the DDJ  "Heaven" is not the same thing as "Dao". Life wants to thrive and grow, yes?  'Heaven' would promote that, so  something going against 'Heaven' would not thrive.

 

But that's not the same thing as "going against Dao" which is not possible...and a whole 'nother topic. :D 

 

 

10 hours ago, OldDog said:

 

Certainly, there will be those more adept than others but I can only speak from the point of view of the common person.

 

Just thought I would put this impression out there. ;)

 

 

Glad you did - it's fun to talk about these things!

Warmest regards

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, rene said:

"Heaven" is not the same thing as "Dao".

 

I have to admit that at this point the notion of Heaven gives me pause. I am not sure that one can look to the DDJ for an ... adequate, appropriate, well balanced? ... understanding. That is, relying solely on the DDJ does not seem to provide an understanding that accomodates most discussions. The point about Heaven not being the same as Dao is certainly a fair point ... But, on the other hand, it does not seem apart from Dao either ... that it shares some qualities. In some texts Heaven is said to operate in the same self-so impartial manner as the Dao.

 

In the various texts, the term Heaven seems to be used in a number of different ways and frequently without reference to Earth, as if Heaven has some sort of natural preeminence ... another thing that I find troubling.

 

I take a lot of my understanding of Heaven from the Yijing and from Leizi. In Leizi, it is almost the exception to find Heaven mentioned apart from Earth.

 

So, in my understanding, I tend to see Heaven and Earth as being inextricably tied together but with distinct influences on the world, each with its own constancy and impartiality. There being, a dynamic tension between the two that accounts for time and change in the manifest world. Hence, expanding and contracting, growth and decay and reversion in unending cycle.

 

Just elaborating on what I have been given to understand from the texts.

 

 

 

Edited by OldDog
Manually correcting the autocorrection

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53 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

I have to admit that at this point the notion of Heaven gives me pause. I am not sure that one can look to the DDJ for an ... adequate, appropriate, more balanced? ... understanding. That is, relying solely on the DDJ does not seem to provide an understanding that fits most discussions. The point about Heaven not being the same as Dao is certainly a fair point ... But, on the other hand, it does not seem apart from Dao either ... that it shares some qualities. In some texts Heaven is said to operate in the same self-so impartial manner as the Dao.

 

In the various texts, the term Heaven seems to be used in a number of different ways and frequently without reference to Earth, as if Heaven has some sort of natural preeminence ... another thing that I find troubling.

 

I take a lot of my understanding of Heaven from the Yijing and from Leizi. In Leizi, it is almost the exception to find Heaven mentioned apart from Earth.

 

So, in my understanding, I tend to see Heaven and Earth as being inextricably tied together but with distinct influences on the world, each with its own constancy and impartiality. There being, a dynamic tension between the two that accounts for time and change in the manifest world. Hence, expanding and contracting, growth and decay and reversion in unending cycle.

 

Just elaborating on what I have been given to understand from the texts.

 

 

 

I appreciate your elaborations. (-: I'm not familiar with the other texts at all, let alone to make any comparisons. I can see, however, where some texts would want to pretty much equate their concept of Heaven with Dao's impartiality...to reinforce their own ideas.

 

My take on "Heaven is not being the same as Dao" is simpler, and incorporates the Christian concept of God/Heaven - which is pretty much representative of the "goodness/positive/light/thrive" half of the whole, and promoting such. Yes?

 

To me, "Dao" is in all things, there is nothing and nowhere that Dao is not; having no preferences, etc... 

 

So yes-  But, on the other hand, it does not seem apart from Dao either ... that it shares some qualities. You are right, Heaven is not apart from Dao and the (good/positive/light/thrive) qualities it represents are half of the whole - but Heaven is no more the whole any more than an arm is the whole body...or that there is light with no dark. Or so it seems to me. 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I consider the use of heaven there to be associated with fate , and fate in our lives due to our passions.

Heaven energetically being more yang , floating above , things becoming etc, whilst the earth would be sober , objective , restorative.

Mirrored bodily  ,,,   'heavens' being associated with the - mental , ethereal , brainy  

and 'earthly'  being solid , predictable , corporeally oriented . 

Socially speaking-  judicial lawful structured elite , vs personal individuals masses.

IMO

Heavens , mankind,  Dao , individuals , all function in similar patterns -as above , so below, therefore to understand the heavens or fate , one can look to themselves or society or the body , nature,, or .. whatever. 

It just doesn't matter, they felt the theme or pattern was the enduring and pervasive thing. 

And so ,- whatever you're using as metaphor to understand the classics ,the Dao, .. it too , doesn't matter. 

Edited by Stosh

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42 minutes ago, rene said:

... simpler, and incorporates the Christian concept of God/Heaven - which is pretty much representative of the "goodness/positive/light/thrive" half of the whole, and promoting such. Yes?

 

This is one of the things that causes me to lean in the direction of Daoism. Many/most Christians have, at on time or another, wrestled with questions of good and evil. If I am to think of God was being good and positive, how do I account for the presence of misfortune and suffering in the world. This leads one down the long road of Chistian theology and doctrine ... which for me never quite disposed of the original question. So, the impartiality of the Dao and it's workings (Heaven and Earth?) has appeal.

 

As we have talked about this, it has occurred to me that the notion of anthropomorphizing is probably playing a part here. It is an innate tendency in humans to confer human qualities upon complex concepts. It's just how we are wired. We want to put things into contexts of human experience and understanding, which has a large social aspect. It just makes it easier to deal with them. For example, it's much easier to deal with the notion of a hurricane if we call it by name. It is somehow more responsible and accountable for its distruction ... gives us something to vent our emotions toward. I think this human tendency shows up when we talk about Heaven conferring favor or disfavor as if there were judgement and intent.

 

 

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