yuuichi

Water above Fire

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2 hours ago, Bindi said:

And from The Inner Teachings of Taoism

By Chang Po-tuan

 

37. Water and Fire

Do not seek water and fire in the north and south.

The nature of fire is to fly up; water flows down.

If you can invert the two things,

Water rises and fire descends, and they form the elixir.

 

Here

not that it matters terribly, but this stanza belongs to Liu yi-ming, not Chang. But hey, whats 700 years between immortal buddies.

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It’s getting complicated. So instead of abstract principles such as Fire and Water (because people are starting to talk about chakras now), is true lead fire (Li) or water (Kan)? Is it supposed to ascend or descend? Is it tiger or dragon? 

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10 minutes ago, yuuichi said:

It’s getting complicated. So instead of abstract principles such as Fire and Water 

Yes. It's nei dan..... 😁 

But who says they are abstract principles? 

Although used on multiple levels, could it not be that on one level it describes sensations? 

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Fire, water, tiger, dragon, lead, mercury, yin, yang  in the context of MCO they would all mean the same thing.

 

lead sinks and mercury rises. easy to put that together. original mind sinks and accursed mind rises to take control of affairs when one does not turn around. This has nothing to do with MCO just using the two words mercury and lead in a different context.

 

All things start at the foundation as many here have already given the correct information needed.

 

At the foundation (ming men gate) (kidney region) bring this so called water up the spine over head just under the nose and so called fire down the front wrap around to the ming men gate in between the kidneys.

 

With that out of the way this is a feeling awareness art of what is happening in your body. The feeling is way more important than any words.

 

Do some Taoist breathing sitting still and feel your body becoming warm. A great starting point with out teacher and not having a guide to pass through this territory. 

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9 hours ago, yuuichi said:

 

So what you’re saying true lead is Fire, and true Mercury is water? But when the Fire has stopped descending and Water has stopped rising, how does that become Heaven and Earth (Qian and Kun)?

 

No. That’s the opposite of what i wrote earlier.

My previous post meant to say that from what i’ve gathered is: within water there is a Pure Yang, within fire there is a Pure Yin. These two Pures are not the two trigrams, the Pure is extracted from the trigrams.

 

If you reverse the inner characteristic of the two Fire becomes Qian annd Water subsequently becomes Kun, by the switching of places. Look at the trigrams, compare the four of them, i think you’ll see what i’m talking about.

In alchemy they’re called Water and Fire because of the trigrams is what Liu Yiming wrote. Words are just imagry, they dont matter, they’re just there to illustrate. ”Once you understand the symbols, forget them.” is what his final comment on that topic, maybe not verbatim but yeah.

 

Theres a lot of names for what is within them, Dragon and Tiger are two of them, and Liu Yiming advised to focus on extracting the Silver from Water. You do that by being still at first, then you find the Silver and extract it. That in itself helps tame Fire and reveal it’s core. Then you take the cores, the refined materials and put them where they belong to create the original, unadulterated substances, later you work to unify them. All this is with the balancing and controlling help of Center, aka Earth.

 

You dont stop either of them afaik, what you do is that you extract the True Silver from Water, the active within the still. When you have enough of it you work to reverse the inner quality of both base components and then they become Qian and Kun.

 

Thats the theory at that stage, exactly what it entails i cant say.

Edited by Rocky Lionmouth
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On 31/01/2019 at 1:56 PM, yuuichi said:

So what you’re saying is that Water is originally at the bottom and has to be moved up, and Fire is originally at the top and has to be moved to the bottom?

This is the basis of the Kan and Li formula.

 

Sorry - just noticed that this has alreay been mentioned further up.

Edited by rex

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Because it is a 'higher type' of water , not water in the  elemental meaning ?

 

This concept is in a few cultures , where water exists as a creative medium , even before 'fire' appears  - it can mean ' the formless body of primeval water surrounding the habitable or yet to be formed  world' .

 

" And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters. "   1::2

 

Then at 1:3 "Let there be light " .

 

In Australian mythology ;  Earth was without form ( a flat disc of sand )   Wallenganda - black snake ( the dark part that runs through the middle of the 'Milky Way' ), who is also a river, spat some of her water down on the earth .

 

In the Enuma Elish, the Deep is personified as the goddess Tiamat - often depicted as a sea serpent  / monster / dragon. The etymology of the name shows various linguistic connections to words that mean 'sea' .

 

Even some scientists postulate earth's water came here as a comet .   (A 'big snake' full of water  :) )

    

I suppose, standing on the shore of a great sea, or living on a huge island surrounded by sea for 10s of 1000s of years, the contrast of the 'void and formlessness' of the vast  sea , compared to what was happening on the land, both naturally and at the hand of man, made people think things came out of THAT 'formless void' , or  (as they did with many rivers , in places like  India, earlier Vedic lands, Australia)  there was a cosmic counterpart, in ' the heavens"  of the rivers and seas  - the 'cosmic ocean'.

 

 

Edited by Nungali
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On 01/02/2019 at 12:56 AM, yuuichi said:

So what you’re saying is that Water is originally at the bottom and has to be moved up, and Fire is originally at the top and has to be moved to the bottom?

 

The serpent which came forth from the earth has risen; the flame which came forth from Nun is fallen.     :)

 

"  ...  In the ordinary Hexagram, the Hexagram of nature, the red triangle is upwards, like fire, and the blue triangle downwards, like water. In the magical hexagram this is reversed; "

 

image.png.450606eb45fe021c0bb656ef365f6699.png

 

But comparing the 'virtues' of water , to virtues we need to develop, as prime virtues, is something else .

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10 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes

 

Thats good, because that is where everyone of us ends up : the body back to Mother Earth that formed our substance , and the spirit to the  'great and formless void ' .  :) 

 

image.png.6f02b09e2ee7e6b967f7a1946963afa7.png

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There is much talk about balancing one pole with its opposite.   

Male / Female, Inner / Outer, Water / Fire.
But perhaps this is only a beginning, it's a way to gain orientation and explore where you are at.

Balancing one side with the other does not actually lead to ascension on its own.

If you wish to ascend that you require insight, technique, tuition, revelation.

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8 hours ago, yuuichi said:

 

 

Is lead Li (Fire) or Kan (Water)?

 

In the scope of alchemical matters it’s not really important which one of those two is lead, this isn’t really something you can piece together from different sources as such. LYMs method is the most complete and detailed description i’ve come across so thats why i keep telling you to go and have your own looksee.

 

Now my replies aren’t worthy of thanks but i’ll take it as a compliment. ^_^

I’m by no means an expert nor skilled at this, one day it just started making sense after reading a few selected works, but you know what they say about book smarts right? Hehe...

 

Honestly i dont remember what all the different names for the two base components are but if you go look up Liu Yimings book on this matter you’ll find his explanations on lots of the symbolic nomenclature.

Pretty sure it’s not available as pdf but you can buy a paperback copy from amazon or Golden Elixir Press and you’ll have it as a decent starting point to study the theory and development of Nei Dan from a very clear source, written from direct experience.

I know the internet i supposed to be of free info but the paper copies arent as ephemeral as digital ones, definetly a good investment that will last perhaps longer than your current interest in the topic. Ag least a proper book (you know what i mean) is there and you can hold it, come back to it and unless you’re a chronic nightowl all you need is sunlight and a bench, no batteries. :)

 

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1 hour ago, rideforever said:

There is much talk about balancing one pole with its opposite.   

Male / Female, Inner / Outer, Water / Fire.
But perhaps this is only a beginning, it's a way to gain orientation and explore where you are at.

Balancing one side with the other does not actually lead to ascension on its own.

If you wish to ascend that you require insight, technique, tuition, revelation.

 

We’ve had our spats and sometimes i can’t help but roll my eyes at what you write but then you go writing something like this and i’m all like ”Rides got a fundamentally sound mindset when it comes to the core matters.”

Darn you and your complexity :D

 

I’m inclined to agree, the way of harmonizing doesn’t lead to ascent but it do prepare one for all sorts of things in ways that are necessary if any good is to come of any method.

 

I’d offer to say that Realization is close when the balancing becomes spontaneous and shure of shot, but ascension is a hindrance to realization. I capitalize randomly because we speak of seeecret matters wooooo ;)

 

 

Btw, no offense.

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30 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Rides got a fundamentally sound mindset when it comes to the core matters

 

That, is all that I had ever hoped for.

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7 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Thats good, because that is where everyone of us ends up 

 

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On 31/01/2019 at 11:15 AM, rideforever said:

 

Yes there is a huge amount of bullshit.
The only answers I ever heard worth hearing come from the book Wuji Qigong and the Secret of Immortality, a short book that summarises the I Ching theory, creates from that a theory of return to immortality, then maps it to body structures, then creates an actual practice that you can do.   All clearly and with diagrams.

 

I've noticed that you've recommended this book a few times now. I might have to treat myself.

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Jing, the vital life energy, is a liquid. If you are ever able to feel it, it is a hot liquid.

Fire in alchemy generally is what cooks the jing into more subtle forms of life energy.

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4 hours ago, MooNiNite said:

Jing, the vital life energy, is a liquid. If you are ever able to feel it, it is a hot liquid.

Unless you prefer your Jing cold. 😁 

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