Dark night of the soul

[Bud Jetsun]

Scheduled meditation will have inherently contrived motivation and expectation.  

 

If scheduled periods of contrived sitting leads to reduced mindfulness, perhaps trade sitting for using the fleeting gift of this moment in body to live meritful actions.

 

Going through motions on a schedule is trading opportunity for inspired life experiences for ritual process idolatry worship.  

 

If the motivation to meditate arises from obligation to a constructed process rather than Self-inspired inquiry to explore Now, the fruits will not exceed the bounds of the constructed/imaginary. 

 

Meditation is a precious gift of opportunity to explore the unbounded Now in single-pointed awareness.  If the action of sitting is treated as a dress-rehearsal practice for some later day's real exploration of Now, one will die having wasted the opportunity to recognize inherent mindfulness and liberation. 

 

Enjoy meritful action without consideration of a future point in which mediation may occur until one's being is surging with resolve to explore deeper into the nature of reality in Now, transcending all aspects of the constructed, expressible, or preconceived.  Then meditate as spontaneously as practical for however long needed, recognizing the inherent life and death commitment in appreciating every breath's new energy provided to generate this priceless enriching opportunity to embrace the real.  If one chooses to stop embracing the real after getting up, what purpose did the mediation serve other than to grow older? 

 

True Awareness is already perfect and complete.  Phenomena of Now, no matter the type or magnitude is exactly how it needs to be already.  It remains unnecessary to create or sustain indoctrinated belief in delusions of expressible truth/knowledge, which functions only to create illusions of division of Now which has always been whole and complete. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Edited April 10, 2018 by Bud Jetsun

[dwai]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

"The authentic dark night is nothing less than a compassionate and beneficent gift of God. It is 'the wound that only God can heal'."

- Peter Holleran

 

If right knowledge and fortitude are sufficient to transcend it, it is not the dark night of the soul. "Facing the inner demons" is necessary to arrive at the dark night though.  

Well given that there is nothing apart from the Self, even the Dark night is nothing but an appearance alone. Of course, when one is going through it, without right knowledge, it can be far more painful that it would be, with the right knowledge. 

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Bud Jetsun said:

Scheduled meditation will have inherently contrived motivation and expectation.  

 

Going through motions on a schedule is trading opportunity for inspired life experiences for ritual process idolatry worship.  

 

 

I disagree, sorta.  It`s hard to argue with the suggestion of mindfully tuning into the Now on a moment by moment basis, but I`ll do my best.  You see,  not everyone is able and ready to hop on the love train of the eternal present from the getgo; some of us have to warmup with scheduled periods of meditation.  That`s not a bad thing, even if it looks less than ideal from a certain exalted viewpoint.  Starting out with a practice that is in some sense "contrived" or "going through motions" is part of many people`s process.  Some of us take the slow scenic route up the mountain.  I urge patience: we`ll get there. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by liminal_luke

[Bud Jetsun]

Discover which aspects of self are perceived as not-yet-ready to appreciate this moment which is of the Dao and make peace with them through genuine forgiveness and/or genuine destruction through never feeding them attention/energy again. 

 

This life will be gone like the twinkle of a star, but the Dao will continue on perfectly  if we ever choose to appreciate it or not. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[9th]

Have you guys ever heard of these things called "opinions"?

 

Truly fascinating.

[OldDog]

 

13 minutes ago, 9th said:

2 hours ago, Bud Jetsun said:

Scheduled meditation will have inherently contrived motivation and expectation.  

 

If scheduled periods of contrived sitting leads to reduced mindfulness, perhaps trade sitting for using the fleeting gift of this moment in body to live meritful actions.

 

Going through motions on a schedule is trading opportunity for inspired life experiences for ritual process idolatry worship.  

 

 

Yes and no. Going through the motions on a scheduled basis CAN reduce meditation to a ritual process ... but it does not have to necessarily always lead to that. And, I can't make the leap to idolatry worship. I set aside time for meditation (as a deliberate focused activity) that attempts to reconcile my worldly schedule with periods of natural receptivity during the day. Does that always produce the optimal result? No, but there is a certain amount of value in the effort. It allows for time to develop understanding of the impediments I may have to gaining the optimal result. In subsequent sessions those impediments are more easily noticed and dealt with. So, there is a cumulative affect. Practice. If my scheduled meditation sessions consistently fail to achieve an optimal result ...or any new insight ... then, yes, idolatry worship, perhaps. And, it would probably be a good idea to move on to some other activity.

 

Then there is another kind of mindfulness practice that can occur without being scheduled. These are oppprtunities presented randomly through out the day. They present as brief moments of unusual awareness, insight or clarity, which are easily dismissed. Taking a moment to recognize these instances is itself a form of practice that can lead to a more involved life experience. Through practice, it becomes easier to recognize the next opportunity for mindfulness. Again, a cumulative affect. Failure to capture those moments on a consistent basis leads to a life experience that is lacking in meaning and ultimately unfulfilling.

 

Excuse my butting in but I felt compelled to offer this view. Interesting discussion. Thanks.

[liminal_luke]

31 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

 I set aside time for meditation (as a deliberate focused activity) that attempts to reconcile my worldly schedule with periods of natural receptivity during the day. 

 

Then there is another kind of mindfulness practice that can occur without being scheduled. These are oppprtunities presented randomly through out the day.

 

I like this.  Set periods of designated meditation practice and the appreciation of spontaneous periods of mindfulness.  I`d argue that, for most of us anyway, this is the most natural and productive approach.  This echoes instructions I`ve been given in an online workshop by Bon teacher Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche to include both formal and informal periods of practice in my day.  One kind of practice isn`t better than the other.   Indeed, the formal practice informs and deepens the informal -- and vice versa.

Edited April 10, 2018 by liminal_luke

[thelerner]

I wonder if I get a little taste/inoculation of the Dark night by doing a certain practice before meditation.

 

I believe its from the Vispassana practice, before meditating I'll often recite:

I am not my body, I am that which inhabits it

I am not my thoughts, they are like clouds passing thru..

I am not my emotions, I let them settle like waves on a pond

I am not my past, that's old memories and patterns I can choose not to repeat

I am not my future, that's expectations that may not come to pass

 I am not my- name.. possessions.. family..

I am breath and awareness

 

To get used to letting it all go. 

[9th]

I know people dont seem to like it when I use so many quotes, but I generally feel that if someone has said something perfectly enough already, the record should speak for itself - and therefore I dont feel a need to add new information.  Im not necessarily saying it is "perfect", just that IMHO (in my humble opinion), its "good enough" in a sense that I could not do any better.  So thats why I quote things so much.

 

Anyways....

 

Quote

The ancient concept of prana is described in many early Hindu texts, including Upanishads and Vedas. One of the earliest references to prana is from the 3,000-year-old Chandogya Upanishad, but many other Upanishads also make use of the concept, including the Katha, Mundaka and Prasna Upanishads. The concept is elaborated upon in great detail in the practices and literature of haṭha yoga,^[4] tantra,^{[citation needed]} and Ayurveda.^{[citation needed]}

 

Prana is typically divided into multiple constituent parts, in particular when concerned with the human body. While not all early sources agree on the names or number of these subdivisions, the most common list from the Mahabharata, the Upanishads, Ayurvedic and Yogic sources includes five, often divided into further subcategories.^{[5][page needed]}

 

This list includes: Prana (inward moving energy), apana (outward moving energy), vyana (circulation of energy), udana (energy of the head and throat), and samana (digestion and assimilation).^{[citation needed]} Early mention of specific pranas often emphasized prāṇa, apāna and vyāna as "the three breaths". This can be seen in the proto-yogic traditions of the Vratyas among others.^[6]:104 Texts like the Vaikānasasmārta utilized the five pranas as an internalization of the five sacrificial fires of a panchagni homa ceremony.^{[6]:111–112}

 

 

[Daemon]

☮️

Edited October 5, 2018 by Daemon

[moment]

On 4/9/2018 at 9:01 PM, Bindi said:

But no one willingly goes out to seek it, take my word for it."  - Anthony Damiani

 

It is not true. People do willingly seek it out.  They just underestimate how hard of a ride it is going to be.

[Starjumper]

37 minutes ago, moment said:

It is not true. People do willingly seek it out.  They just underestimate how hard of a ride it is going to be.

 

I couldn't find the quote you are referring to, so I'll just assume you are talking about experiencing what is being called this dark night of the soul.

 

Whether people seek out the darkness could be possible, I just want to address the concept of "how hard the ride is going to be".

 

Well It doesn't need to be so hard, it is harder at the beginning, but then you can get used to it.  The attitude that goes well with this process of cultivation is (after the feeling of remorse) "I don't really give a damn about this little emotional hurt I'm having" and "A little bit of pain never hurt anyone".  Just a big breath, sigh, and let it go.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Yes. Perfect stretch of the way to work out how to live with and let pass pain and hurt. Inner aspects of Iron Body so to speak.

[moment]

6 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

I couldn't find the quote you are referring to, so I'll just assume you are talking about experiencing what is being called this dark night of the soul.

 

Whether people seek out the darkness could be possible, I just want to address the concept of "how hard the ride is going to be".

 

Well It doesn't need to be so hard, it is harder at the beginning, but then you can get used to it.  The attitude that goes well with this process of cultivation is (after the feeling of remorse) "I don't really give a damn about this little emotional hurt I'm having" and "A little bit of pain never hurt anyone".  Just a big breath, sigh, and let it go.

 

It is a contextual thing. I was tortured virtually everyday of the first ten years of my life by a true sadist (stepfather pulled out my fingernails with pliars, crushed my kittens skull, beat me every day)  I know where hell is.  I have been in its' bowels.  So, the first three or four years of subconscious cleansing (and you and I know that means bringing it to the surface and letting it go) for me was a hell of a process. Luckily, you and I had world class teachers, that helps a lot.  But, I agree with you, it gets easier if you stick with it.  Now, I am very thankful of what I have learned and earned and been given and it just keeps getting better. 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

11 hours ago, moment said:

 

It is a contextual thing. I was tortured virtually everyday of the first ten years of my life by a true sadist (stepfather pulled out my fingernails with pliars, crushed my kittens skull, beat me every day)  I know where hell is.  I have been in its' bowels.  So, the first three or four years of subconscious cleansing (and you and I know that means bringing it to the surface and letting it go) for me was a hell of a process. Luckily, you and I had world class teachers, that helps a lot.  But, I agree with you, it gets easier if you stick with it.  Now, I am very thankful of what I have learned and earned and been given and it just keeps getting better. 

 

Respect.

[Starjumper]

15 hours ago, moment said:

I know where hell is.  I have been in its' bowels.  So, the first three or four years of subconscious cleansing (and you and I know that means bringing it to the surface and letting it go) for me was a hell of a process. Luckily, you and I had world class teachers, that helps a lot.  But, I agree with you, it gets easier if you stick with it.  Now, I am very thankful of what I have learned and earned and been given and it just keeps getting better. 

 

I'm sorry to hear about your terrible treatment by your step father, it's sad.  My parent's weren't no saints either but it was more like neglect and mild violence, and more for the first son, me.  I like to say that everything has it's good side and it's bad side, but where's the good side to torturing a child?  

 

I think it may have given you the toughness to keep on going through the darkness and may result in getting further than someone who had it pretty easy.  The people who can give the most light are the ones with the most scars.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I don’t think someone who mistreats somebody else, no matter the degree of violence used, is giving the gift of toughening that person up.

 

If you have scars you have healed, if you have experiences and can exchange them from past tense baggage to present and future currency that is work you do for you. Being thankful for having gotten through stuff and to have had ones strenght and resilience confirmed by another, be it in positive or negative reflection, is paramount. Dont know if it sounds contraddictory but yeah...

Thats you giving yourself high esteem, imho.

 

Not really looking to argue a point, i’m just saying that showing gratitude towards someone who has made no effort to deserve it is generoisty and killing them with kindness, to their face. Feeling gratitude towards an abuser for their abuse because of what it has led to seems like running around in a circle. Personally, ok, no judgement, i’m just calling it out from my own experiences.

I’ll never be grateful for the stuff that was done to me by others, my challenge is remembering these people were incapable of doing otherwise and never forgetting frugality and utilize what i seem to carry around still. If i’m keeping it around it’s either to be processed or already under way in transformation to treasurehood.

Here’s what i think: what one suffers to shed is slag, treasure is kept effortlessly because of its refined nature, like extracting gold from stuff.

 

 

[moment]

1 hour ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

I don’t think someone who mistreats somebody else, no matter the degree of violence used, is giving the gift of toughening that person up.

 

If you have scars you have healed, if you have experiences and can exchange them from past tense baggage to present and future currency that is work you do for you. Being thankful for having gotten through stuff and to have had ones strenght and resilience confirmed by another, be it in positive or negative reflection, is paramount. Dont know if it sounds contraddictory but yeah...

Thats you giving yourself high esteem, imho.

 

Not really looking to argue a point, i’m just saying that showing gratitude towards someone who has made no effort to deserve it is generoisty and killing them with kindness, to their face. Feeling gratitude towards an abuser for their abuse because of what it has led to seems like running around in a circle. Personally, ok, no judgement, i’m just calling it out from my own experiences.

I’ll never be grateful for the stuff that was done to me by others, my challenge is remembering these people were incapable of doing otherwise and never forgetting frugality and utilize what i seem to carry around still. If i’m keeping it around it’s either to be processed or already under way in transformation to treasurehood.

Here’s what i think: what one suffers to shed is slag, treasure is kept effortlessly because of its refined nature, like extracting gold from stuff.

 

 

 

I was brought to the conclusion through meditation and training that hate, anger, depression, anxiety and ptsd were holding me back.  I still have little twinges now and then but, I now just automatically let them pass through me and they are quickly gone.  Not being a saint though, I have to admit a little satisfaction in the medical report-that my stepfather probably laid dying for approximately twelve hours alone on the floor of his bathroom before he finally passed

Edited April 14, 2018 by moment

[Rocky Lionmouth]

1 hour ago, moment said:

Not being a saint though, I have to admit a little satisfaction in the medical report-that my stepfather probably laid dying for approximately twelve hours alone on the floor of his bathroom before he finally passed

 

Hehe, thanks for sharing that, i solidarize.

 

But what you say about meditation and the conclusions you have found i agree. Hate bears crap fruit and anger is seldom as helpful as it’d like to convince us it is...

[Kojiro]

On 4/7/2018 at 12:57 AM, Starjumper said:

This darkness that people experience after plenty of meditation is a necessary part of the path, and it is one of the primary aspects of meditation.  Of course we wish to practice non thinking, and of course thoughts and memories will surface anyway.  These are often the very thoughts and memories that people keep busy to suppress, they don't want to self examine, so the self examining comes during periods of mental quiet.   These dark thoughts and memories will not stop until you work through every single one in your entire past life.  Castaneda had a way of dealing with this.  When you get to one of these dark memories just take a big inhale, turn your head to the side (I can't recall which side but I think it was to the right) exhale and let it go.

 

I don't think a person can completely switch off their thoughts until they have covered all events of their past life.

 

This is seeing your dark side and it is an essential part of progressing along the spiritual path, and it is true that there is more darkness in people's awarness these days, but you've got to go through it if you want to get to enlightenment.

 

It takes guts, ruthless self honesty, and a stiff upper lip to face the music, and the music must be faced.  The fact is that a lot of people don't have the guts, self honesty, or persistence that it takes, so what's to do?  You can give them their pacifier and advise they stop meditating for ever or for awhile so then it's a dead end.  A lot of times they realize it's because of the meditation so they'll stop their meditations anyway.  There is no easy solution.  You just need to know that this is how you work through your karma; to feel remorse, not only for your own dark side, but for everyone elses, is how you work through your karma.

 

You need to know that eventually you will get through it and then there will be more peace, you have embraced your dark side and love yourself anyway, with clarity.  Those who avoid it will be forever stuck in hell.

 

It's also true that a person can begin feeling a little crazy, and they realize that they actually have been crazy all along (thinking too much is a form of insanity), and they then realize that everyone else is crazy too, then they realize it's not all that bad.

 

You have to go crazy before you can get sane, you have to go through hell before you can get to heaven.  There are no short cuts.

 

Joseph Campbell speaks of this, he says that many myths from all over the world are similar.  The hero of the story enters some dark cave of fear and battles some monster, when he comes out the other side he is a changed person and a true hero, a leader.

 

It's the way it is, go for it.

this is one those classical posts worth remembering. you can like @starjumper or you can dislike him, but this post is great.

 

"you have to go through hell before you can get to heaven", starjumper!

Edited November 26, 2023 by Kojiro

[Kojiro]

this dark night of the soul is a very interesting topic. But there is more to it than just meditation, not only in meditation this dark side we all have makes its appearance. In my case it often happens in dreams. This weekend I have dreamed quite a bit. Both Friday and Saturday I have had strange dreams, in which I can say some dark part of me has made its appearance. It is a dark part of me that is quite silent during the day, but it tends to make its appearance at night.

 

Let's see how i fight against these demons, i don't know how i should attack them but i definitely will!

Edited February 4 by Kojiro

[Kojiro]

Connected with the topic I have found this quote much of interest, by Itzhak Bentove, Stalking the wild pendulum: 

 

Quote

All schools of meditation, therefore, emphasize the
importance of "calming down the body." But, of course, the
stresses in the system are actually energy patterns, and they
have to be converted and eliminated from the body. One of
the most common forms into which these stresses are con-
verted is body movement. It is not unusual to see people
who are meditating go through different involuntary body
movements, such as moving the arms,, head, shaking of the
whole body, etc. T h e heavier the stresses that are given off,
the stronger the movements may become. There are other
ways in which these stresses may come out. These are a
direct release of emotions, which may take the form of
depressions, crying, and general emotionalism. Other ways
may manifest simply as temporary pain in different areas of
the body.