Is enlightenment really desirable?

[Stosh]

Yes its normative for folks to behave crappily , but who are the exceptions ? How do you know who they are ? and where are they ? 

I recognize there are tougher folks , Like you and Ct , but do such tough folks really want to be distanced from everyone ?

You might ,,, both of you seem to like jungle, but you still go about forms of interacting ,, does it mean you're forced to settle on normals or pinkies ? 

[Lost in Translation]

< ... insert useless comment here ... >

[Stosh]

21 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

< ... insert useless comment here ... >

If that's aimed at me, I actually might have asked a question which I actually want to know the answer to , useless or not, ,, for a change.

If you want, you can hop in and answer this too. 

Edited October 30, 2017 by Stosh

[Lost in Translation]

33 minutes ago, Stosh said:

If that's aimed at me, I actually might have asked a question which I actually want to know the answer to , useless or not, ,, for a change.

If you want, you can hop in and answer this too. 

It was not aimed at anyone in particular. This thread has been off the rails a while now. I figured I would join in, but did not have anything in particular to say.

[Stosh]

36 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

It was not aimed at anyone in particular. This thread has been off the rails a while now. I figured I would join in, but did not have anything in particular to say.

Rails? What rails ? Once someone says No , and another says Yes ,  all the bases are covered. What more would there be to hear but discuss the limitations. Like  If one considers people to be mostly crappy , and so the only option is to wander out into a jungle , or try to be disengaged with them whilst in their midst , or whether knowledge about self doesn't fix any of that. 

 

But what is it you would like to have read, if this is too far afield, testimonials poems , sanskrit terminology nobody can unravel? 

Edited October 30, 2017 by Stosh

[Bud Jetsun]

On 28/10/2017 at 6:37 PM, Stosh said:

How mushy generous compassionate loving and selfless would one be, if it always worked out .? I imagine we would be as goofy as puppies. 

 

Hard enough to scratch diamond while flowing like water in the river of phenomena only limited by one's own creativity and mindfulness. 

 

Everything experienced and/or imagined alike is an aspect of this one beautiful moment offered in compassion. 

 

Forgive all beings, self first and completely before moving onward as forgiveness only functions when genuine. 

 

Forgive all possible arisen, arising, and yet to arise possibilities. 

 

Conclude creating 'success/failure' criteria in experienential phenomenon of events through mindfully unbreakable appreciation. 

 

These few and basic steps do not need to be done for tomorrow today. They only offer usefulness if maintained in the real. The whole of the real exists in the domain of this infinitesimal moment of Now.  

 

The singular mechanism of useful commitment is Now. The discussion deciding in advance to spend years/decades/lifetimes towards a state which can only exist in Now ensures the real will be missed by carefully scanning/watching/thinking for some future arising phenomenon. 

 

Just wholehearted forgiving drops burdens. 

Just aligning thoughts, mind, and speech with outer action concludes conflict.

Just wholehearted appreciation is self-love and the conclusion of the choice to suffer phenomenon. 

 

Reading about it, chanting about it, sitting thinking about is not living it. 

 

When living these simple basics with the unbreakable resolve, a being is in sight of the ramp to the jump into having the word "enlightenment" shed its thick wrapper of dogma/desire/fear and instead become an appreacted experiential aspect of Now. 

 

Tomorrow never comes just as future enlightenment never comes, they are both aspects of non-real delusions of what may be or yet-to-be. 

 

Kind or cruel alike, suck all of the wisdom available from every experience, and if the lesson from a given experience has already been shared, evolve forward at that moment never look back.  Choose to manifest the experiences that enrich and evolve always ratcheting towards getting the basics.  

 

Routine is how to reinforce one's static condition, through sacrifice of one's most precious resource (this moment) towards experiencing what has already been experienced.  

 

Meditate only when willing to commit to it offering meaningful evolution. All the '10,000 things' and the functions of one's body and nature are here in great compassion to offer some range of experiences/lessons in this moment.  Suck the wisdom from all of them with the same commitment, precision, and speed which a mongoose hunts the cobra. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[blue eyed snake]

9 minutes ago, Bud Jetsun said:

Tomorrow never comes just as future enlightenment never comes, they are both aspects of non-real delusions of what may be or yet-to-be. 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Bud Jetsun said:

Suck the wisdom from all of them with the same commitment, precision, and speed which a mongoose hunts the cobra. 

 

thank you

[Starjumper]

9 hours ago, Stosh said:

Yes its normative for folks to behave crappily , but who are the exceptions ? How do you know who they are ? and where are they ? 

I recognize there are tougher folks , Like you and Ct , but do such tough folks really want to be distanced from everyone ?

You might ,,, both of you seem to like jungle, but you still go about forms of interacting ,, does it mean you're forced to settle on normals or pinkies ? 

 

Well I'm a hermit at heart and have always been a loner.  Also you've seen the saying 'The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs' or something along those lines.  Actually I prefer the cats.

 

However I did make friends with someone and we became buddies.  He is an American Indian, a little bit crazy but he has a pure heart, In fact he may be moving down here and homesteading before too long.  I'm setting aside the forty acres on the other side of the valley for him and his lady.  I found out that I kind of liked Indians and got along well with them, unlike with white people, maybe because they aren't Pinks?

 

I do like interacting a bit, I teach some reeeally small classes (tai chi, kung fu, and chi kung) in the little town and sometimes I'll spend some minutes at the local Juice Factory relating with people, a lot of them 'awakened'* enough to have escaped from the US ... and then there's the addictive internet, where I get to raise hell and verbally abuse morons on FB, but that got kind of old so I toned that down and just keep a small friends list.

 

*awakened - first time I've used that word.  I don't really know what it's supposed to mean and I think a lot of others are the same, but they heard some guru say it so it's cool.

 

Have a wonderful day,

Steve

Edited October 31, 2017 by Starjumper

[ljazztrumpet]

5 hours ago, Bud Jetsun said:

Just wholehearted forgiving drops burdens. 

Just aligning thoughts, mind, and speech with outer action concludes conflict.

Just wholehearted appreciation is self-love and the conclusion of the choice to suffer phenomenon. 

 

Reading about it, chanting about it, sitting thinking about is not living it. 

 

When living these simple basics with the unbreakable resolve, a being is in sight of the ramp to the jump into having the word "enlightenment" shed its thick wrapper of dogma/desire/fear and instead become an appreacted experiential aspect of Now. 

 

Meditate only when willing to commit to it offering meaningful evolution. All the '10,000 things' and the functions of one's body and nature are here in great compassion to offer some range of experiences/lessons in this moment.  Suck the wisdom from all of them with the same commitment, precision, and speed which a mongoose hunts the cobra. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Wonderful sentiments Buddy Jetsun.. My current opinion is that we have to 'build' unbreakable resolve through practice. I'm sure one could get to the point where they could use nearly every conscious moment of their life doing this. And, perhaps, all of us are doing it now unconsciously.

 

Aligning thoughts, mind, and speech with outer action also takes practice/intention. 

 

Imo, that is great advice about meditation.

 

The outlook that everything that happens is for our good in some way or another is a very worthwhile practice I find. And I find this ties into the practice of raising my 'love consciousness'.  

 

Thanks again for sharing this Bud! All the very best, Lex

[Lost in Translation]

12 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

< ... insert useless comment here ... >

 

To all Dao Bums,

 

Please forgive the above post. I meant to express humor and failed. No offense was meant. My apologies.

 

-Lost in Translation

[Marblehead]

6 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

To all Dao Bums,

 

Please forgive the above post. I meant to express humor and failed. No offense was meant. My apologies.

 

-Lost in Translation

Yeah, the humor of it got lost in translation.

 

Stosh will recover - he's flexible.

 

 

[rene]

22 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

< ... insert useless comment here ... >

 

10 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

To all Dao Bums,

 

Please forgive the above post. I meant to express humor and failed. No offense was meant. My apologies.

 

-Lost in Translation

 

Now that is funny!

 

You have nothing to apologize for, Lost in Translation.

Words are limited; rarely do they convey what they are meant to when describing these things. Which is why understanding the accompanying and underlying essence of what it typed makes for better communication. When I first read your top quote, I thought it was brilliant (and funny!). Don't apologize for your own skill set. 

[Rara]

On 21/10/2017 at 4:44 PM, Will said:

 

In other words, isn't enlightenment the harder road to contentedness? Might I be better off trying to "forget" Taoism and postmodern philosophy and make myself like a "normal" person? Because what is really the benefit of all this uncertainty and nihilism? 

 

 

I think most true Taoists would say the same.

 

There's no difference between any of us, we're all living and have our own experiences, that's about it. Feeling this...that's the enlightenment.

 

Other than that, just try and be good

[Starjumper]

WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO WALK IN THE VOID?

 

Despite the title, this is a lesson in what it takes to genuinely study Tao. While there’s a misconception that one can carelessly come and go with a teacher, and while the patient indulgence of teachers is frequently misunderstood, studying Tao does in fact take a long time with a teacher. This story illustrates the point well.

(One of the unremarked points of this story is that Liezi studied alongside his friend Bai Gaozi, and he seems to make a point of how much his friend was a part of his learning.) 

 

***

Liezi studied long with his master, Lao Shang, and his friend, Bai Gaozi. When he had progressed enough in understanding their Tao, he rode the wind back to his home.

 

Yin Sheng heard of Liezi’s return and asked to become his disciple. After having lived with Liezi for a few months without any apparent lessons, he begged to learn the secret art. Ten times he asked; ten times he received no reply. Upset, Yin Sheng threatened to leave, but still, Liezi gave him no teachings. So Yin Sheng left.

 

However, he could not stop thinking about the matter for some months.

 

Consequently, he returned to become a disciple again. Liezi said: “Why are you coming and going again?” 

 

“I asked for instruction before,” replied Yin Sheng, “But you would not teach me anything, and I was unhappy. Now I’m not so sure, and so I came back.”

 

“I once thought you intelligent. How have you fallen so low? Listen, and I will tell you what I learned from my teacher. 

“I lived with my master along with Bai Gaozi as my friend, and yet for three years, my heart did not dare to distinguish between right and wrong. My lips did not dare to speak of good or harm. Eventually, my master began to glance at me. 

“After another five years, my heart could consider right and wrong, and my lips could speak of good and harm. Then my master’s face began to relax and he smiled. 

 

“After another seven years, I followed the thoughts of my heart, and did not concern myself with right and wrong. I followed the speech of my lips, but did not talk of good or harm. Then my master began to gesture for me sit on the mat beside him. 

“After another nine years, my heart had the right inclination. My lips stay closed. I did not know of right or wrong, good or harm for myself or for others. I did not know my master as my teacher, nor did I know my friend as my companion. Internal and external combined. There was no difference between eye and ear, ear and nose, nose and mouth. All were the same. My heart froze, my body dissolved, my bones and flesh fused. I did not know where I was, or where I was going. The wind blew me from east to west as if I was dry chaff or falling leaves. Did the wind ride me? Or did I ride the wind? 

 

“Now you have not even passed a rainy season inside your teacher’s house, and you have already shown your unhappiness three times. You can barely stand, let alone channel energy through your flake of a body. You can barely move across the dirt, even for a bit. So how can you expect to walk in the void or ride the wind?”

In his shame, Yin Sheng was struck dumb and did not dare to reply.

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO WALK IN THE VOID?

 

May I ask what book you found this in? 

[Will]

Wow, great discussion! I'd gotten a bit behind and was amazed to see there were about five more pages than where I'd left off. 

 

It's been interesting to read the references to Mahayana Buddhism (or at least some variation of it). I remember when I read about Buddhism in prior years (before my philosophical craze began!) I hadn't really understood the notion of there not being a "self," at least in the sense we normally think of it.

 

But now this is a really striking idea to me because I now believe that determinism rules the world, i.e. that all our actions are predetermined (are theoretically predictable based on knowledge of all natural laws, etc.) This is not to say that we don't have free will, but rather that there's no "deeper self" with total autonomy -- we can make decisions, and must, but every decision is pre-determined. This seems at least a bit similar to some of the ideas expressed in this thread. 

Edited November 1, 2017 by Will

[Bud Jetsun]

On 28/10/2017 at 6:12 PM, Stosh said:

No they dont, the difference  is that humans can equate others with self ..sometimes. 

 

 

The monkeys choose a lifestyle that let's a forest recycle energy to atom perfect levels working with the life support system to sustain on our beautiful shared spaceship. 

 

The monkeys don't poison the air and water and soil of the area their own children grow up, but they do occasionally eat each others children or children from other monkey groups for reasons not important to understand. 

 

Basics for yourself alone is a 24-7 occupation. Nature needs nothing to help it find balance aside from humans to balance themselves. 

 

Enjoying a $4usd a night worker hostle in Ganzhou China, the workers generously share their rice breakfast. The rice is cooked with the appreciation of beings who appreciate they are having another meal right now, and rice never tasted and smelled so good. Some folks had injuries and coughs, no complaints uttered, and only gratitude and generosity expressed. They manifested the universe reflecting their generosity with a generous multiplication. 

 

$1,000usd a night hotels have buffet lines available around the clock filled with premium exotic foods from around the world, and people focused on nit-picking quality or requesting they add what they choose to imagine its missing. 

 

Monks and information age freestyle spiritual seekers alike drown in oceans of priceless wisdom. CTs maintaing Enlightenment thread has many hundreds of expressions in which any one of them lived would be enough of a ramp to jump and make it. So does every line of the Dao Jing or Upanishads and dozens of other works on the nature of reality from wisdom of beings appreciating the natural state, and choosing to create a fleeting and inherently relative and abstract pattern of symbols. 

 

A non-committal practice means one is free get up and go do something else whenever they choose. Appreciation of the real occurs only when chosen to commit to appreciating it irregardless of the choice in quantity of 'time' spent prior.  

 

Folks are free to believe they can copy the existence of whomever being may have chosen to appreciate Now, but the success rate speaks for itself, as if each Buddha mind teaching effort produced just 2 Buddhas per lifetime average, our human population would already be already be the limit approaching only Buddha mind appreciators. This does not mean a Buddha mind appreciator doesn't occasionally have a student or disciple occasionally also choose to appreciate the whole of the real in Now, but it still occurs not until the moment the student chooses to appreciate the whole of the real. 

 

Every new perspective offers an added vantage point to explore the tools offered in the 10,000 things. Retaining of bias of which of the 10,000 things arising experiences fit or don't fit inside some rulebook of dogma is leaving opportunities for wisdom and perspective gain on the table. While animated Now, naturally use it, this is the whole of the Way. 

 

Unlimited Love, 

-Bud

Edited November 1, 2017 by Bud Jetsun

[thursday]

On 1-11-2017 at 8:36 AM, Bud Jetsun said:

A non-committal practice means one is free get up and go do something else whenever they choose. Appreciation of the real occurs only when chosen to commit to appreciating it irregardless of the choice in quantity of 'time' spent prior.  

 

After years of daily practise, I have only had what now seems like moments of appreciating the practise. My teacher recently said my primary blockage has always been: my unwillingness to fully "enter" emotional and mental pain while observing change and difference at the kinesthetic, tactile and felt level of sensation. Very frustrating because this is a basic thing, and while a lot of me wants to write it off, it's likely very true. How can I change years of this lack in practise during this lifetime.. edit: How can I start with a clean slate, when I have accumulated all these doubts and frustrations?

Edited November 2, 2017 by thursday

[C T]

6 minutes ago, thursday said:

 

After years of daily practise, I have only had what now seems like moments of appreciating the practise. My teacher recently said my primary blockage has always been my unwillingness to fully "enter" emotional and mental pain while observing change and difference at the kinesthetic, tactile and felt level of sensation. Very frustrating because this is a basic thing, and while a lot of me wants to write it off, it's likely very true. How can I change years of this lack in practise during this lifetime..

Its simple, but not many want to go explore and try to invalidate/validate the true or illusory existence of a manifested solid self that experiences all the different things mentioned. Not implying that the experiences are false - all subjective experiences are only as real as one's habitual ways of looking at them. 

Edited November 1, 2017 by C T

[thursday]

Yes, I can see there's really no other way than it being very simple. I either continue what I'm doing or I look to improve my practise. "Suffering" is the best motivation..

[C T]

12 minutes ago, thursday said:

Yes, I can see there's really no other way than it being very simple. I either continue what I'm doing or I look to improve my practise. "Suffering" is the best motivation..

While suffering might be one of many motivating factors, we can deduce the nature of its existence, or non-existence, by contemplating on the nature of mind/body/speech habits and how these habits impact the way we approach practice. 

 

In my opinion, joyful effort is a better motivator than suffering. The end result matters. 

Edited November 1, 2017 by C T
tidying

[Marblehead]

37 minutes ago, C T said:

 

In my opinion, joyful effort is a better motivator than suffering. The end result matters. 

I didn't want to "Like" the entire post but I think this is very true and I do agree with it.

 

[SeekerOfHealing]

Read Heart Sutra if you want to realize "desire" in context to enlightenment. 

 

 

[Marblehead]

I'll pass, but thanks anyhow.

 

[Starjumper]

On 10/30/2017 at 9:38 AM, Stosh said:

Yes its normative for folks to behave crappily , but who are the exceptions ? How do you know who they are ? and where are they ? 

I recognize there are tougher folks , Like you and Ct , but do such tough folks really want to be distanced from everyone ?

You might ,,, both of you seem to like jungle, but you still go about forms of interacting ,, does it mean you're forced to settle on normals or pinkies ? 

 

On 10/30/2017 at 6:57 PM, Starjumper said:

 

Well I'm a hermit at heart and have always been a loner.  Also you've seen the saying 'The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs' or something along those lines.  Actually I prefer the cats.

 

However I did make friends with someone and we became buddies.  He is an American Indian, a little bit crazy but he has a pure heart, In fact he may be moving down here and homesteading before too long.  I'm setting aside the forty acres on the other side of the valley for him and his lady.  I found out that I kind of liked Indians and got along well with them, unlike with white people, maybe because they aren't Pinks?

 

I do like interacting a bit, I teach some reeeally small classes (tai chi, kung fu, and chi kung) in the little town and sometimes I'll spend some minutes at the local Juice Factory relating with people, a lot of them 'awakened'* enough to have escaped from the US ... and then there's the addictive internet, where I get to raise hell and verbally abuse morons on FB, but that got kind of old so I toned that down and just keep a small friends list.

 

... and then there's the other, deeper, side of the story.  The one that involves compassion and empathy, but that's too difficult to write about  ... and others have done that already =)   I just wanted to go along with the sentiment expressed in the Subgenius video I posted.

 

Lau Tzu got so worked up about it that that he wrote "the sage treats people like straw dogs",  whatever that means   ,  and some new age fairy princesses might use the term unconditional love, but Lao Tzu doesn't use that word (for good reason)  so we won't go there.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Starjumper