Ultimate reality, the dream world, language, and a radical approach to awakening

[roger]

I read something very interesting by Eckhart Tolle that's given me an exciting new idea about awakening to ultimate reality.

 

He said that our thoughts 'are not true absolutely'.

 

He wasn't just talking about value judgments or opinions, but nearly ALL of our thoughts.

 

I've learned that love is all there really is and that everything is really perfect. Fear, attack, and badness are only illusions. They're part of the DREAM WORLD.

 

So, if we have the thought, 'I'm feeling kind of anxious today,' we can remind ourselves that anxiety (fear) is only an illusion.

 

If we think, 'That was very unkind of him,' we can remember that lack of love and attack aren't real.

 

Or if we see on the news that something 'unfortunate' happened, we can know that badness is an illusion and that everything is happening as it should.

 

I was already aware of this approach to awakening, but after reading that teaching from Eckhart Tolle, it occurred to me just how much of my thinking acknowledges the dream world as real, rather than as an illusion.

Edited July 15, 2017 by roger
added the word nearly before ALL

[Marblehead]

Creating more illusions to dispel other illusions?  Sounds like a circle jerk to me.

 

I have heard that a good slap aside the face will most times lead to awakening.

 

[Miffymog]

7 hours ago, roger said:

I read something very interesting by Eckhart Tolle that's given me an exciting new idea about awakening to ultimate reality.

 

He said that our thoughts 'are not true absolutely'.

 

He wasn't just talking about value judgments or opinions, but nearly ALL of our thoughts.

 

I've learned that love is all there really is and that everything is really perfect. Fear, attack, and badness are only illusions. They're part of the DREAM WORLD.

 

So, if we have the thought, 'I'm feeling kind of anxious today,' we can remind ourselves that anxiety (fear) is only an illusion.

 

If we think, 'That was very unkind of him,' we can remember that lack of love and attack aren't real.

 

Or if we see on the news that something 'unfortunate' happened, we can know that badness is an illusion and that everything is happening as it should.

 

I was already aware of this approach to awakening, but after reading that teaching from Eckhart Tolle, it occurred to me just how much of my thinking acknowledges the dream world as real, rather than as an illusion.

 

For me at the moment, it's not that thoughts are incorrect or not true, more that the less I think the better (kind of). I am currently becoming more sensitive to how a particular thought induces a particular emotional / hormonal response. So I am (kind of) practising having less intense thoughts. Not to not have them, but rather to calm them down in order to maintain a more even emotional keel.

[silent thunder]

It hit me very simply one day.

 

So simply, that the realization simply stripped away a lot of the bull shit I carry around and create for myself moment by moment, decade by decade in my mind.

 

Thoughts aren't real.  They're not inherently real, true, or even important. 

 

I no longer believe everything I think. 

[CedarTree]

10 hours ago, roger said:

I read something very interesting by Eckhart Tolle that's given me an exciting new idea about awakening to ultimate reality.

 

He said that our thoughts 'are not true absolutely'.

 

He wasn't just talking about value judgments or opinions, but nearly ALL of our thoughts.

 

I've learned that love is all there really is and that everything is really perfect. Fear, attack, and badness are only illusions. They're part of the DREAM WORLD.

 

So, if we have the thought, 'I'm feeling kind of anxious today,' we can remind ourselves that anxiety (fear) is only an illusion.

 

If we think, 'That was very unkind of him,' we can remember that lack of love and attack aren't real.

 

Or if we see on the news that something 'unfortunate' happened, we can know that badness is an illusion and that everything is happening as it should.

 

I was already aware of this approach to awakening, but after reading that teaching from Eckhart Tolle, it occurred to me just how much of my thinking acknowledges the dream world as real, rather than as an illusion.

 

Within certain Buddhist traditions the dream metaphor is used commonly as a teaching technique to help someone understand the "lived reality".

 

The below teaching is from Jackson Peterson who is a Dzogchen teacher.  This kind of teaching is also very prevalent in the Zen tradition such as Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery.

 

Imagine at night that you find yourself in a dream facing a tiger, you are in complete fear. Then suddenly the dream ceases and you are not in the dream nor awake, and no new dream has yet started. There is not even the consciousness of you being present.

 

Then suddenly a new dream starts and you are mountain climbing. The view is beautiful and you feel serene. Then the dream ceases . There is no longer any "you" or sense of presence; just an empty blank, not noticed. Then the next dream arises...

 

Between the dreams no continuing self carried over from the dream into the empty blank moment between the dreams. When the next dream started a completely new self appeared that had no connection to the previous self. That self lasted only as long as each dream.

 

Likewise during our "waking" day, a complete sense of self as who we seem to be, is arising and completely disappearing in every second. There is no continuing "you" as an entity that is continuing from moment to moment. Each moment is a new daydream "me" unconnected to the previous momentary "me". There is no self identity that continues from moment to moment nor from lifetime to life time. But because the moments of the "me" projection occur so closely together, the mind creates the illusion of a continuing "me".

 

When we sit in quiet meditation, and just observe the mental activity, it's possible to notice how the "me" is just the current thought "me", with no single "me" as a continuing entity bridging the gaps between the "me" thoughts. This is noticed when the mind's activity slows way down naturally.

 

By recognizing the non-existence of a continuing "me", nothing could exist as "mine". Which "me" do things belong to if no "me" actually exists in time, as an owner? Who owns the "karma"? What karma? If the "me" is just a momentary inanimate thought with no autonomy and no duration, "who" ever did anything?

 

Seeing this clearly; hasn't samsara lost its foundation completely?

 

Seeing this clearly, who is there to enter nirvana?

 

Finding no one to be in, or ever had been in samsara, and not finding anyone remaining to enter nirvana; what greater nirvana could there be?

[Jeff]

26 minutes ago, CedarTree said:

 

Within certain Buddhist traditions the dream metaphor is used commonly as a teaching technique to help someone understand the "lived reality".

 

The below teaching is from Jackson Peterson who is a Dzogchen teacher.  This kind of teaching is also very prevalent in the Zen tradition such as Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery.

 

Imagine at night that you find yourself in a dream facing a tiger, you are in complete fear. Then suddenly the dream ceases and you are not in the dream nor awake, and no new dream has yet started. There is not even the consciousness of you being present.

 

Then suddenly a new dream starts and you are mountain climbing. The view is beautiful and you feel serene. Then the dream ceases . There is no longer any "you" or sense of presence; just an empty blank, not noticed. Then the next dream arises...

 

Between the dreams no continuing self carried over from the dream into the empty blank moment between the dreams. When the next dream started a completely new self appeared that had no connection to the previous self. That self lasted only as long as each dream.

 

Likewise during our "waking" day, a complete sense of self as who we seem to be, is arising and completely disappearing in every second. There is no continuing "you" as an entity that is continuing from moment to moment. Each moment is a new daydream "me" unconnected to the previous momentary "me". There is no self identity that continues from moment to moment nor from lifetime to life time. But because the moments of the "me" projection occur so closely together, the mind creates the illusion of a continuing "me".

 

When we sit in quiet meditation, and just observe the mental activity, it's possible to notice how the "me" is just the current thought "me", with no single "me" as a continuing entity bridging the gaps between the "me" thoughts. This is noticed when the mind's activity slows way down naturally.

 

By recognizing the non-existence of a continuing "me", nothing could exist as "mine". Which "me" do things belong to if no "me" actually exists in time, as an owner? Who owns the "karma"? What karma? If the "me" is just a momentary inanimate thought with no autonomy and no duration, "who" ever did anything?

 

Seeing this clearly; hasn't samsara lost its foundation completely?

 

Seeing this clearly, who is there to enter nirvana?

 

Finding no one to be in, or ever had been in samsara, and not finding anyone remaining to enter nirvana; what greater nirvana could there be?

 

While Jackson may have some interesting things that he says/teaches, I think it important that it be mentioned that he is not viewed as an authorized Dzogchen teacher by any tradition. In particular, his original teacher Norbu has be very clear on this point.

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

While Jackson may have some interesting things that he says/teaches, I think it important that it be mentioned that he is not viewed as an authorized Dzogchen teacher by any tradition. In particular, his original teacher Norbu has be very clear on this point.

 

You're getting very proper these days, Jeff. (I agree with you tho')

[silent thunder]

41 minutes ago, CedarTree said:

 

Within certain Buddhist traditions the dream metaphor is used commonly as a teaching technique to help someone understand the "lived reality".

 

The below teaching is from Jackson Peterson who is a Dzogchen teacher.  This kind of teaching is also very prevalent in the Zen tradition such as Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery.

 

Imagine at night that you find yourself in a dream facing a tiger, you are in complete fear. Then suddenly the dream ceases and you are not in the dream nor awake, and no new dream has yet started. There is not even the consciousness of you being present.

 

Then suddenly a new dream starts and you are mountain climbing. The view is beautiful and you feel serene. Then the dream ceases . There is no longer any "you" or sense of presence; just an empty blank, not noticed. Then the next dream arises...

 

Between the dreams no continuing self carried over from the dream into the empty blank moment between the dreams. When the next dream started a completely new self appeared that had no connection to the previous self. That self lasted only as long as each dream.

 

Likewise during our "waking" day, a complete sense of self as who we seem to be, is arising and completely disappearing in every second. There is no continuing "you" as an entity that is continuing from moment to moment. Each moment is a new daydream "me" unconnected to the previous momentary "me". There is no self identity that continues from moment to moment nor from lifetime to life time. But because the moments of the "me" projection occur so closely together, the mind creates the illusion of a continuing "me".

 

When we sit in quiet meditation, and just observe the mental activity, it's possible to notice how the "me" is just the current thought "me", with no single "me" as a continuing entity bridging the gaps between the "me" thoughts. This is noticed when the mind's activity slows way down naturally.

 

By recognizing the non-existence of a continuing "me", nothing could exist as "mine". Which "me" do things belong to if no "me" actually exists in time, as an owner? Who owns the "karma"? What karma? If the "me" is just a momentary inanimate thought with no autonomy and no duration, "who" ever did anything?

 

Seeing this clearly; hasn't samsara lost its foundation completely?

 

Seeing this clearly, who is there to enter nirvana?

 

Finding no one to be in, or ever had been in samsara, and not finding anyone remaining to enter nirvana; what greater nirvana could there be?

 

Thanks Cedar Tree

that was a timely message that really resonated for me.

 

my dream life has had enormous revelatory power in my process.

 

I often these days walk about anticipating that I will spontaneously awaken in the 'real' world in the same manner I become lucid in my dream world, nightly.

[Wu Ming Jen]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

 

I no longer believe everything I think. 

I like That

I pay a game to find out where the thoughts come from. Mostly they are not my own like from the media, a show or others around me.

Any disturbing thought a recite delete, delete, delete to my self and banish those thoughts forever.

 

I had one teacher That said to me when it comes to thoughts be a really bad host and do not listen or cater to them.

[C T]

we don't really want to confuse thoughts with thinking. 

 

Thinking is often a functional exercise while thoughts are mere beads on a string looped from past associations. Thoughts have no particular value other than to obscure presentness - a bit like drifting clouds covering over the moon. 

[silent thunder]

One of my life long inner teachers is the Spirit of the Red Tail Hawk.

 

She said to me in my awareness once... "Here's a secret for you...  when I fly... i have no feet."

 

When the realization about it settled... it was astounding to me.  Vajra.  I had been pondering the monkey mind and it's incessant nature and was getting down on myself over its proclivity and abundance in my life.  Disparaging it and looking down on it.  But she gently reminded me that my mind and thoughts have good reason to be used and a good purpose in some situations.

 

Hawk's feet are a great analogy for my mind and what all this practice and meditation are striving to help manifest.

 

She offered me an insight into the nature of my mind and thoughts and has shaped my process and practice and my approach to my mind. 

 

Through my practice, I have been striving to get my mind to behave like a Hawks' feet.  When striking for the hunt, or when standing on a branch, I want my feet/mind to be focused, potent and unshakable.  Fully present and on the task.  Far from wanting to abolish my mind utterly, I seek for it to manifest when appropriate, and to recede when not.

 

When it is time for flight... presence in the now.  Mind/feet are folded and all but forgotten...  a non-factor.

 

I love haiku, this one kind of sums it up.

it's called

my mind:

 

like hawk's feet in flight
folded, closed and forgotten
until the landing

 

 

 

 

[Spotless]

.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Spotless

[allinone]

On ‎15‎.‎07‎.‎2017 at 10:08 AM, roger said:

He said that our thoughts 'are not true absolutely'.

 

He wasn't just talking about value judgments or opinions, but nearly ALL of our thoughts.

 

I've learned that love is all there really is and that everything is really perfect. Fear, attack, and badness are only illusions. They're part of the DREAM WORLD.

 

So, if we have the thought, 'I'm feeling kind of anxious today,' we can remind ourselves that anxiety (fear) is only an illusion.

 

no, you are putting a wrong twist to what he said.

[allinone]

for now E.Tolle is 100x smarter than you. You should not assume or interpret his words.

[Miffymog]

On 18/07/2017 at 1:27 AM, silent thunder said:

One of my life long inner teachers is the Spirit of the Red Tail Hawk.

 

She said to me in my awareness once... "Here's a secret for you...  when I fly... i have no feet."

 

When the realization about it settled... it was astounding to me.  Vajra.  I had been pondering the monkey mind and it's incessant nature and was getting down on myself over its proclivity and abundance in my life.  Disparaging it and looking down on it.  But she gently reminded me that my mind and thoughts have good reason to be used and a good purpose in some situations.

 

Hawk's feet are a great analogy for my mind and what all this practice and meditation are striving to help manifest.

 

She offered me an insight into the nature of my mind and thoughts and has shaped my process and practice and my approach to my mind. 

 

Through my practice, I have been striving to get my mind to behave like a Hawks' feet.  When striking for the hunt, or when standing on a branch, I want my feet/mind to be focused, potent and unshakable.  Fully present and on the task.  Far from wanting to abolish my mind utterly, I seek for it to manifest when appropriate, and to recede when not.

 

When it is time for flight... presence in the now.  Mind/feet are folded and all but forgotten...  a non-factor.

 

I love haiku, this one kind of sums it up.

it's called

my mind:

 

like hawk's feet in flight
folded, closed and forgotten
until the landing

 

 

 

Good stuff. One of the things I'm contemplating at the moment is the 'boundary' of the mind. So, where is the mind, or what are my thoughts while I'm in conversation with someone? It's in conversation where my thoughts merge / interact with another's. And, unlike the written word, it is more instinctive and reactionary.

 

I need thoughts for a conversation, I transmit thoughts while talking, and receive them while listening.

 

But where are they coming from, whose are they, and how are other peoples thoughts subsumed in to me ... ? hmmm, I'll have to think about this one

 

[Kar3n]

21 minutes ago, allinone said:

for now E.Tolle is 100x smarter than you. You should not assume or interpret his words.

MOD TEAM WARNING

You should stop the insults before you find yourself unable to troll for the attention you seem to desire so flagrantly.

[allinone]

1 hour ago, Kar3n said:

MOD TEAM WARNING

You should stop the insults before you find yourself unable to troll for the attention you seem to desire so flagrantly.

 

ok

Edited July 19, 2017 by allinone

[s1va]

On 7/17/2017 at 6:55 PM, C T said:

we don't really want to confuse thoughts with thinking. 

 

Thinking is often a functional exercise while thoughts are mere beads on a string looped from past associations. Thoughts have no particular value other than to obscure presentness - a bit like drifting clouds covering over the moon. 

 

Thinking seems to be dependent on thoughts.  Without thoughts, how can the thinker function?  There can just be awareness.

 

[Marblehead]

Thinking is an act with intention.

 

Thought is natural.

 

 

 

Did I just say something?

 

[C T]

10 hours ago, kāvēri said:

 

Thinking seems to be dependent on thoughts.  Without thoughts, how can the thinker function?  There can just be awareness.

 

Perhaps some day you will come to understand how the thinker and the thoughts are not always one. 

[s1va]

10 minutes ago, C T said:

Perhaps some day you will come to understand how the thinker and the thoughts are not always one. 

 

Perhaps that day is today

[C T]

1 hour ago, kāvēri said:

 

Perhaps that day is today

Well done if that's the case 👍