Bindi

Effort vs no-effort

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Dwai, I don't buy the idea that a true master is not also a master of voluntary mind and or body habits... thus a negative and obvious unhealthy habit could not really possess them if they actually had such or full Self-mastery. Further, such strange and incongruent excuses along these lines have been used by all sorts of quasi-masters or quasi-yogi's for their minor or intermediate short comings - or in some cases wild adharmic escapades!

Very good point.

 

It wasn't me, the Self made me do it... :)

Edited by Jeff
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The biggest problem is when we take either the paramarthika or the vyavaharika as separate from each other. They are not. However, the vyavaharika is ultimately a projection of the paramarthika itself.

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Enjoyed this thread so far tremendously, wretch that I am.

 

"Resting in the self", spontaneously, yet there is a time for effort. 

 

One day in 1975, my effort was to stay aware of each movement of breath, and as I was seated at my desk, suddenly breath got up and walked to the door. 

 

For years, I tried to always find my action through "the windy element", and in the end I found that what I truly believe becomes the windy element--whether my belief turns out to be sound or mistaken.  At the same time, there are moments when the windy element is strong enough to move me regardless of what I think.

 

Not able to sit the full lotus for forty minutes without pain or numbness, I finally set to studying anatomy and kinesthesiology.  Lately it's the work of Olaf Blanke, the Swiss neurobiologist, that has been most useful to me.  Olaf and Christine Mohr have a paper online with the results of their study of out-of-body experience.  This was keyed by Olaf's discovery, during preparations for epilepsy surgery, that he could trigger out-of-body experience in some patients by inserting electrodes into the area of the brain above the ears inside the skull.  Turns out there are three kinds of such out-of-body experience, and only about 150 cases in the medical literature.  The conclusion in the paper is that out-of-body experience is a result of dis-coordination between the vestibular, proprioceptive, and visual senses, along with the sense of gravity.  Blanke and Mohr hypothesize that the sense of self is provided through a coordination in these senses.

 

Gautama the Buddha described the feeling of the first four meditative states in detail, these states being concerned with "equanimity in the midst of multiplicity (of the senses)" (all of the meditative states, he said, are marked by an immaterial happiness, and this is key for me as without the experience of such happiness, I have no stomach for long meditation).  There is an alternation between sensation like that of water lilies immersed in water, and sensation like that of the surface of a pond fed by an internal spring so that it is always full to the brim.  I believe these are modalities in the coordination of the senses that Blanke and Mohr described.

 

In the third of the initial meditative states, there is no ease without equanimity.  This I take to mean, no ease in the stretch in which I find myself without relaxation (sensation here described as like lotus flowers that never break the surface of the water).  In the fourth of the initial states, there is no happiness without equanimity, which I take to mean no happiness without an acceptance of the origination of consciousness through contact in any of the senses, including but not limited to the mind.  In particular, opening the mind to the experience of consciousness originating in the proprioceptors, the nerves that tell us where the muscles, joints, and ligaments are, and to consciousness originating in the otoliths within the vestibular organs (the sense of gravity in equalibrioception), is an effort for me now, as I seem to have grown up without the distinction of the experience of these particular senses in my daily living.

 

The fourth meditative state is marked by the cessation (of habitual activity) of inhalation and exhalation. It's interesting to me to watch video of teachers from India, and see the extent to which they return to a spontaneity of breath. The first three further states, the states of equanimity with respect to uniformity, are described by Gautama as the excellence of the heart's release through the extension of the mind of compassion, the mind of sympathetic joy, and the mind of equanimity through the four quarters of the world, above and below.  I do find that the experience of the "windy element" as the source of my action is often dependent on the acceptance of what lies outside the apparent boundaries of the senses, and the extension of a mind of friendliness.

 

The mind that moves, and whose location is informed by all the parts of the body with no part left out, enjoys a peace--that keeps me going, and I accept that passing through no ease without equanimity and no happiness without relinquishing the direction of thought is necessary.

 

Edited by Mark Foote
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The biggest problem is when we take either the paramarthika or the vyavaharika as separate from each other. They are not. However, the vyavaharika is ultimately a projection of the paramarthika itself.

So then are you saying that it is possible to be a drug addict or an alcoholic and still be a realized jivanmukta?

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So then are you saying that it is possible to be a drug addict or an alcoholic and still be a realized jivanmukta?

You have people like Chogyam Trungpa, who was an alcoholic and sexually promiscuous, yet most who knew him said he was highly realised, the video of his death suggests he may have achieved rainbow body also even though he drunk himself to death.

 

One of the most fundamental personal realisations I have had is that awakening never has to fit in to our minds preconceptions of what it should look like. Yet it is a tricky area as some do use it to excuse all kinds of abusive behaviour.

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The self sees difference. To the Self there is none :)

Personally, it took many years before the lightbulb of that realization lit up. The words are simple, the intellectualization straightforward, but the realization only followed cessation.
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no one breaks dharma or law without incurring karma - no matter how far up the latter they may be - and there is no abstract, hard to figure out or understand thing about that.  (in fact the farther up the latter the greater the karma that can kick in for transgression)

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So then are you saying that it is possible to be a drug addict or an alcoholic and still be a realized jivanmukta?

Did you ever read the story about Neem Karoli Baba and David Alpert (Ram Das)?

 

Alpert was researching LSD at the MIT when he went to India and met NKB. He explained what he was doing and His research into consciousness.

 

Baba asked him for some LSD. Instead of taking the suggested dose, baba downed the entire bottle of LSD. Alpert and his colleagues panicked thinking someone terrible was going to happen. Nothing did...Baba's consciousness was not affected by LSD...

 

Jivanamuktas are free from these type of "addictions". Whatever they do, they continue simply by habit, not compulsion.

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So then are you saying that it is possible to be a drug addict or an alcoholic and still be a realized jivanmukta?

If God had to become man in order to reconcile humans back to God, any wretched being could feign their realization through all sorts of mundane mischief - if nothing, at the very least this very consideration in itself succeeded in bringing out the cynic in you  :)

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Dwai, I'd say that example was of  a rather different context and purpose. (by the master involved)

Edited by 3bob
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Did you ever read the story about Neem Karoli Baba and David Alpert (Ram Das)?

 

Alpert was researching LSD at the MIT when he went to India and met NKB. He explained what he was doing and His research into consciousness.

 

Baba asked him for some LSD. Instead of taking the suggested dose, baba downed the entire bottle of LSD. Alpert and his colleagues panicked thinking someone terrible was going to happen. Nothing did...Baba's consciousness was not affected by LSD...

 

Jivanamuktas are free from these type of "addictions". Whatever they do, they continue simply by habit, not compulsion.

 

The very definition of vasana includes the concept and word 'habit' -

 

vasana (Sanskrit: "subconscious inclination; conditioning, tendencies, or self-limitations; predispositions and habits"

 

Where habits remain, vasanas remain, and where there are vasanas there is still false self.

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Question:

Baba will you tell us about vasanas? You talked about samskaras.

Babaji:

Vasanas are also same, like samskara – acquired habits of the mind. So if the mind has acquired a certain habit the person is very likely to be behaving in the same way. Suppose for example I have a student. I shall be giving the student all my teachings based on my experience, ‘You are the immortal soul, you are this, you are that.’ But when such a student would behave based on the acquired habits of his mind – these are also known as the vasanas.

Sometimes negativity is very much termed as the vasanas because of these habits only one gets attracted into a particular type of culture, one particular type of activity. So these are all called vasanas. They are all the mind’s practice of acquired habits since time immemorial. You see in this life also, since your childhood you would have brought a basic nature. Unknown to you, you would have developed a particular observation capability, a particular type of understanding capability, like when we give a certain type of talk. If there are ten people based on their vasanas and temperament, ten people might be understanding my talk in ten different ways. So the best understanding capability is required. This called the vasanas. It is very important otherwise I might be telling something else, symbolically, the person might be trying to understand in a different way, symbolically. All these things can happen. So this is all because of the acquired habits of the mind. This is what is called vasanas.

 

https://www.shivarudrabalayogi.org/talks-a-writings-section/6-2007/1222-karma-samskaras-vasanas-and-overcoming-fears

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If God had to become man in order to reconcile humans back to God, any wretched being could feign their realization through all sorts of mundane mischief - if nothing, at the very least this very consideration in itself succeeded in bringing out the cynic in you  :)

I guess I just don't understand your comment here. Could you explain what you are trying to say?

 

Thanks.

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Question:

 

Baba will you tell us about vasanas? You talked about samskaras.

 

Babaji:

 

Vasanas are also same, like samskara – acquired habits of the mind. So if the mind has acquired a certain habit the person is very likely to be behaving in the same way. Suppose for example I have a student. I shall be giving the student all my teachings based on my experience, ‘You are the immortal soul, you are this, you are that.’ But when such a student would behave based on the acquired habits of his mind – these are also known as the vasanas.

 

Sometimes negativity is very much termed as the vasanas because of these habits only one gets attracted into a particular type of culture, one particular type of activity. So these are all called vasanas. They are all the mind’s practice of acquired habits since time immemorial. You see in this life also, since your childhood you would have brought a basic nature. Unknown to you, you would have developed a particular observation capability, a particular type of understanding capability, like when we give a certain type of talk. If there are ten people based on their vasanas and temperament, ten people might be understanding my talk in ten different ways. So the best understanding capability is required. This called the vasanas. It is very important otherwise I might be telling something else, symbolically, the person might be trying to understand in a different way, symbolically. All these things can happen. So this is all because of the acquired habits of the mind. This is what is called vasanas.

 

https://www.shivarudrabalayogi.org/talks-a-writings-section/6-2007/1222-karma-samskaras-vasanas-and-overcoming-fears

There are two types of vasanas and one does not affect the enlightenment process --

 

Vasanas keep our mind outwardly directed, Sri Ramana says:

 

“All the age-long vasanas (impressions) carry the mind outwards and turn it to external objects. All such thoughts have to be given up and the mind turned inward.” (3)

 

Many vasanas affect us negatively, but not all do.

 

Before citing Sri Ramana here, let me explain his terms: mukti means liberation and Sahaja means our natural state of permanent enlightenment, rather than Brahmajnana, which is temporary enlightenment (specifically, Brahmajnana means “God-realization,” but it does not last while the more evolved stage of Sahaja does).

 

“Vasanas which do not obstruct Self-Realization remain [after Self-Realization]. In Yoga Vasistha [a Hindu text] two classes of vasanas are distinguished: those of enjoyment and those of bondage.

 

“The former remain even after Mukti is attained, but the latter are destroyed by it. Attachment is the cause of binding vasanas, but enjoyment without attachment does not bind and continues even in Sahaja. (4)

 

 

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There are two types of vasanas and one does not affect the enlightenment process --

 

 

Or did Nisargadatta Maharaj just have a Beedi-Chapalata...

 

Chapalata is Vasana of a mild type. It lasts for a short time only. There are two kinds of important Chapalatas. There is the Jihva-Chapalata of the tongue where the tongue wants to eat the various things every now and then. It is a form of morbid appetite. Rich people who lead a luxurious life have this form of Chapalata. The other variety is the Upastha-Chapalata wherein the sex Indriyas wants to taste again and again the sexual enjoyment (Sparsa).

 

http://www.sivanandaonline.org/public_html/?cmd=displaysection&section_id=884

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Personally, it took many years before the lightbulb of that realization lit up. The words are simple, the intellectualization straightforward, but the realization only followed cessation.

 

Followed cessation of the self? The mind? The ego?

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Followed cessation of the self? The mind? The ego?

 

Nothing ceased.  Brian is still here.  100% perfect.  Same as before the lightbulb temporarily blinded him.

 

Gotta' go chop more wood and bring in more water.

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Followed cessation of the self? The mind? The ego?

Sorry! The mind. The state beyond no-thought.
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Did you ever read the story about Neem Karoli Baba and David Alpert (Ram Das)?

Alpert was researching LSD at the MIT when he went to India and met NKB. He explained what he was doing and His research into consciousness.

Baba asked him for some LSD. Instead of taking the suggested dose, baba downed the entire bottle of LSD. Alpert and his colleagues panicked thinking someone terrible was going to happen. Nothing did...Baba's consciousness was not affected by LSD...

Jivanamuktas are free from these type of "addictions". Whatever they do, they continue simply by habit, not compulsion.

Having a high capacity for drugs, is not quiet the same thing as we are discussing. Many drug addicts have extremely high capacity for drugs, the question is can they let go and walk alway from their addiction.

 

In my view a habit is a compulsion of the mind. It is just a subconscious one, that the person with the compulsion has not yet reached the depth of noticing. With your logic a jivanamukta could also be a habitual child pornographer.

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I'd say that most among us do not have a solid agreement on the term and meaning for "mind".

 

For instance Brian says, "no thought" but what does that mean? And can another thought describe it... ;-)

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Having a high capacity for drugs, is not quiet the same thing as we are discussing. Many drug addicts have extremely high capacity for drugs, the question is can they let go and walk alway from their addiction.

 

In my view a habit is a compulsion of the mind. It is just a subconscious one, that the person with the compulsion has not yet reached the depth of noticing. With your logic a jivanamukta could also be a habitual child pornographer.

 

Jeff, I think what he was trying to suggest is that a liberated soul's expansive state of consciousness is beyond mundane influences, even those of the extreme consciousness-altering persuasion.

 

A jivanmukta can partake but, due to being so far removed from identification with the body-mind complex, can even be impervious to the substance's effects to varying degrees... much less at the mercy of the body-mind's addictive tendencies.

 

liberated(while "in" the body).

 

For what it's worth, it should be noted that LSD is virtually impossible to become addicted to.

Of perhaps more import, is that Neem Karoli Baba seemed completely unaffected by such a large dose. :wacko:

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As an aside, the concepts of habit or addiction, stand upon the presupposition of free will... which interestingly coincides with the topic at hand.

Edited by neti neti
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Jeff, I think what he was trying to suggest is that a liberated soul's expansive state of consciousness is beyond mundane influences, even those of the extreme consciousness-altering persuasion.

 

A jivanmukta can partake but, due to being so far removed from identification with the body-mind complex, can even be impervious to the substance's effects to varying degrees... much less at the mercy of the body-mind's addictive tendencies.

 

liberated(while "in" the body).

 

For what it's worth, it should be noted that LSD is virtually impossible to become addicted to.

Of perhaps more import, is that Neem Karoli Baba seemed completely unaffected by such a large dose. :wacko:

In the context of the discussion, if one is beyond the "body-mind addictive tendencies" than why does the addictive behavior (like chain smoking) continue? The ongoing chain smoking itself would seem to prove that one is not beyond body-mind addictive tendencies. Dwai's quotes seem to more be saying that pleasure addictive tendencies are fine, but suffering based ones drop. But, the nature of suffering is when you lose the pleasure, you suffer...

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In the context of the discussion, if one is beyond the "body-mind addictive tendencies" than why does the addictive behavior (like chain smoking) continue? The ongoing chain smoking itself would seem to prove that one is not beyond body-mind addictive tendencies. Dwai's quotes seem to more be saying that pleasure addictive tendencies are fine, but suffering based ones drop. But, the nature of suffering is when you lose the pleasure, you suffer...

 

It's a matter of perspective, or levels of understanding. At its a core, a basic confounding of the subject which was never the object. The ultimate understanding is that there is no jiva or even the concept of a jiva(and therefore no jivanmukta).

 

Or said another way, I am, before the body ever came into the picture. But from the level of understanding that the jiva has any reality unto itself, the idea is that behaviors continue as they must. For the jiva and jivanmukta alike, they will continue through the bodily form in accordance with one's yet to be exhausted "vasanas." The difference lies in that by being firmly established in the Absolute, the jivanmukta has transcended them and merely plays out the latent tendencies of the bodily form within his "final incarnation." Whereas the jiva, trapped in bondage by chains of his own making, will continue to "reincarnate" in accordance with those "vasanas" unless they are transcended by Self-realization.

 

From the level of understanding that jiva is Shiva, the jiva can do nothing as the jiva does not exist. Thus, any question, including the question of bondage is a moot point. Further... what talk can be had of earthly pleasures when one is, in reality, an embodiment of uninterrupted Bliss Absolute?

Edited by neti neti
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Having a high capacity for drugs, is not quiet the same thing as we are discussing. Many drug addicts have extremely high capacity for drugs, the question is can they let go and walk alway from their addiction.

 

In my view a habit is a compulsion of the mind. It is just a subconscious one, that the person with the compulsion has not yet reached the depth of noticing. With your logic a jivanamukta could also be a habitual child pornographer.

What I meant with that example is that someone who is stabilized in the Self will not be affected by psychotropic drugs as their mind will be still.

 

It goes back to whether the samskaras/vasanas will bind you or not.

 

Many great masters had habits like smoking (nisargadatta maharaj), naga sanyasis often ritualistically partake in marijuana, aka bhaang (many are jivanamuktas), swami chinmayananda used snuff, RamaKrishna paramahamsa chewed betel nuts and leaves (I could be wrong about this though)...

 

These were all liberated masters (I'm sure there's a list of more such beings).

 

Some are set in motion by their prarabdha (activated causality) which have to run their course on the body.

 

My first teacher was a teetotaler, pure vegetarian and was almost close to enlightenment (but not yet there I feel). My current teacher did all the "hippie things" in his youth, lived a very colorful lifestyle, being a martial artist, get into fights, etc and yet was already at a high level of attainment (from his childhood). He stopped all that but doesn't judge anyone for their habits. They will all fall away when the time is right...just keep up your practice...is his position.

 

These external trappings don't mean anything if you have the right conditions/pre-conditions.

 

Even Ratnakar the murderous highway robber became Maharishi Valmiki, the author of the Ramayana.

Edited by dwai
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