Effort vs no-effort

[Mark Foote]

"none have command over directing divine grace, for if someone did then it would no longer be such....(including a Self realized master)   what one may have command over is getting themselves out of the way so that Spirit can work through them without resistance."--3bob

 

And what is the Tathagatha, or the Jesus that Thomas knew, if not the spirit working? 

 

Gautama was a man, as a teacher he made mistakes in his teaching (we know this because scores of his monks took the knife as they sought to follow his advice to meditate on "the unlovely").  I do believe that Jesus wondered why his god had forsaken him on the cross. 

 

Jesus I believe said he would perform no miracles.  Gautama said that the greatest miracle was the ability to teach what he had to teach to others, and he performed no miracles, although he did profess psychic abilities. 

 

To my mind, Gautama had it right, and the fate of human civilization and the world hinges on whether or not we can make the gateless gate, the effortless effort, understood by 5th graders.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Mark Foote

[3bob]

Buddhist and Christian teachings are counter to each other in key ways even if they have some common ground, which is so when it comes to most spiritual teachings.  but imo implying or making certain major correlations is problematic at least.  Btw, both Jesus and the Buddha are the primary and human founders of their teachings - while Sanatana Dharma has no human founder. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by 3bob

[Bindi]

I agree with your point about the intellectual. But realisation doesn't have to be won or even be hard work, some people just get spontaneously realised, like Eckhart Tolle. We often equate our regular understanding of cause and effect with the spiritual path, but in reality you don't have to earn it because it is already your nature and can be realised by anyone at any time.

 

Yet in terms of Vasanas one thing I read Amma say about them is a certain amount of them can be cleared through discipline, which is why most traditional paths and monastic traditions had quite a strict code of discipline. But the rest will only clear with divine grace, so there is nothing you can really do as an ego to remove them except set yourself up in situations where grace is more likely to occur, or get help from those who have some command over directing divine grace.

 

There are four main paths of Yoga, to dismiss emphasis on any of these paths as useless is to disregard a persons natural predisposition. Amma's path and beliefs will suit her and the people drawn to her, but her perspective is not going to be valid for all other paths.

 

Jnana Yoga: Jnana Yoga is the path of knowledge, wisdom, introspection and contemplation. It involves deep exploration of the nature our being by systematically exploring and setting aside false identities.

Bhakti Yoga: Bhakti Yoga is the path of devotion, emotion, love, compassion, and service to God and others. All actions are done in the context of remembering the Divine.

Karma Yoga: Karma Yoga is the path of action, service to others, mindfulness, and remembering the levels of our being while fulfilling our actions or karma in the world.

Raja Yoga: Raja Yoga is a comprehensive method that emphasizes meditation, while encompassing the whole of Yoga. It directly deals with the encountering and transcending thoughts of the mind.

 

http://www.swamij.com/four-paths-of-yoga.htm

[Jeff]

If they are not in the conscious mind then they are not thoughts maybe? Maybe they are "seeds" that will ripen into thoughts?

This is an interesting topic to explore further imho.

The smoker smokes. The thought is there or there would be no smoking. It is the same with anger. The angry person just gets angry, they do not notice the subconscious response that made them angry in the first place.

 

Diving deeper one can find the energy flow that has not yet made it to conscious aspects of mind.

[Jeff]

The practice of Self-inquiry, called Atma-vichara in Sanskrit, is the most important meditation practice in the Vedantic tradition.  It is the main practice of the yoga of knowledge (Jnana Yoga), which itself is traditionally regarded as the highest of the yogas because it takes us most directly to liberation.

Self-inquiry is the primary method through which Self-realization-- the realization of our true nature beyond mind and body--is achieved.

 

[bUT]

 

... the path of Self-inquiry demands a certain ripeness or readiness of mind that may require other practices to develop – Swami J

 

Perhaps this was the error that Ramana introduced, beginning with 'Who am I' inquiry instead of ending with it, which then allowed the ego-based mind game that is Neo-advaita to flourish in the West.

 

What do you think of the Western tradition 'Know Thyself'?

Sorry, not familiar with it. Some tradition you practice or follow?

[Jeff]

Jeff, It's strange to me that you keep bringing up and interpreting dualistic Christianly as if it were non-dual, and which non-dualistic  schools and teachers would refute as far as I know... for two in one is still dual - for instance in the "joint heirs" quote there are multiple great souls in golden soul bodies which is wonderful - but not - Brahman beyond such categories.  (btw. the "casual" realm  heaven is also both within and without)

 

I have only given you quotes and not playing any game of dual or nondual. Buddha also realized such, and hence there are also infinite Buddhas...

[Bindi]

Sorry, not familiar with it. Some tradition you practice or follow?

 

Not familiar with self-enquiry which Ramana espouses, or the long Western tradition of 'Know Thyself' starting in ancient Greece?

[Jeff]

Not familiar with self-enquiry which Ramana espouses, or the long Western tradition of 'Know Thyself' starting in ancient Greece?

As your question asked... The western tradition.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Jeff

[Bindi]

No "who am I" is an excellent practice for beginners too imho. All it takes is a sincerity of practice and that will lead us to the I AM...

 

The popularity of Neo-advaita in the West suggests to me that this as a beginning is a disaster, leading to shallow intellectual realisation and endless irritating Absolutish.

[Bindi]

As your question asked... The western tradition.

 

“Know Thyself” was written on the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi. Legend tells that the seven sages of ancient Greece, philosophers, statesmen and law-givers, who laid the foundation for western culture, gathered in Delphi to inscribe “know thyself” at the entry to its sacred oracle. The adage subsequently became a touch-stone for western philosophers, and extended its reach as the influence of Greek philosophy expanded.

 

...Wherever and whenever the adage originated, Know Thyself was universally adopted and placed at the foundation of knowledge, the corner stone on which the temples of philosophy should be erected. “The essence of knowledge is self-knowledge,” claimed the Greek philosopher Plato. Centuries before him, the Hindu Upanishads confirmed, “Enquiry into the truth of the Self is knowledge.” Leagues away and centuries later, the Persian poet Rumi wondered, “Who am I in the midst of all this thought traffic?” and the American poet Walt Whitman celebrated his Self, “a simple, separate person.”

 

http://www.arkintime.com/know-thyself/

[3bob]

"none have command over directing divine grace, for if someone did then it would no longer be such....(including a Self realized master)   what one may have command over is getting themselves out of the way so that Spirit can work through them without resistance."--3bob

 

And what is the Tathagatha, or the Jesus that Thomas knew, if not the spirit working? 

 

Gautama was a man, as a teacher he made mistakes in his teaching (we know this because scores of his monks took the knife as they sought to follow his advice to meditate on "the unlovely").  I do believe that Jesus wondered why his god had forsaken him on the cross. 

 

Jesus I believe said he would perform no miracles.  Gautama said that the greatest miracle was the ability to teach what he had to teach to others, and he performed no miracles, although he did profess psychic abilities. 

 

To my mind, Gautama had it right, and the fate of human civilization and the world hinges on whether or not we can make the gateless gate, the effortless effort, understood by 5th graders.

l

Mark, Agreed that Spirit is working through Beings - great, small, medium, etc....for Spirit will use any means or vessel possible, still all of us beings are like transformers at various voltages doing our duty in our place under the sun, but the infinite voltage (so to speak) cannot be matched by any transformer of it - being that a transformer transforms to another value.  Although if a transformer "returns" back to the infinite then it no longer exists as an individualized transformer that transforms.   

Edited February 21, 2017 by 3bob

[Jetsun]

 

There are four main paths of Yoga, to dismiss emphasis on any of these paths as useless is to disregard a persons natural predisposition. Amma's path and beliefs will suit her and the people drawn to her, but her perspective is not going to be valid for all other paths.

 

No matter what branch of yoga you are on you will need some discipline at the beginning and then surrender to divine grace towards the end, even if you are on the intellectual path the more you sweep away concepts and delusions the closer you are brought to surrender. You will never achieve it on your own without help.

[Mark Foote]

I myself am interested in the mindfulness that Gautama described as "a thing perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living besides"--not so much in enlightenment.   I believe Gautama's description changes the dynamic somewhat, with regard to what a spiritual life looks like, and how it should be appreciated.  Also changes the role that other people play, in my education.

 

That doesn't say that the mindfulness that was his way of living doesn't require an effort.  Doesn't say it does, either.  No longer an effort at enlightenment out of the context of daily living, however; no longer an enlightenment out of the context of daily living, even if it is effortless.

[Spotless]

I agree with your point about the intellectual. But realisation doesn't have to be won or even be hard work, some people just get spontaneously realised, like Eckhart Tolle. We often equate our regular understanding of cause and effect with the spiritual path, but in reality you don't have to earn it because it is already your nature and can be realised by anyone at any time.

Yet in terms of Vasanas one thing I read Amma say about them is a certain amount of them can be cleared through discipline, which is why most traditional paths and monastic traditions had quite a strict code of discipline. But the rest will only clear with divine grace, so there is nothing you can really do as an ego to remove them except set yourself up in situations where grace is more likely to occur, or get help from those who have some command over directing divine grace.

One might look at Eckhart Tolle quite differently than with the idea that he just woke up spontaneously. Invariably one wakes up at some stop gap in the frequencies of ones karma - in other words - at some point the noise of it stops - the inertia is not - and Awakening occurs. This is often the case in tiring of ones own karmic frequency - the self made illusion that is your karma.

 

Eckhart thought of suicide frequently - it was this very thinking and considerable heat that had him question the one thinking it. And he Awoke.

 

Regarding Vasanas - we tend to put them in neat packages that are well labeled - but they are often very fine thin inertia's - deep within - and they have created both deep furrows and infinitesimally fine circuitry. Practice prior to Awakening does allow for many to fall away - and it can create the habit of seeing them. The siddhis are latched onto before and often after Awakening - previous experience in this is invaluable.

 

Often healing powers, many so called magical powers, seeing - these are part and parcel to growth - but however much people give lip service to the idea that these should not be allowed to "hold one back" - they very slyly clothe one with the patina of their powers and without knowing it - the relatively newly Awakened will 99% of the time consider their "position" far far far far far higher than it is.

 

it is in the increasing understanding that we know nothing that the onion peels away time after time as we continue to transform. The bodies continue to refine in the grace of stillness and gratitude. This can occur far beyond the awareness of most that have Awakened.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Spotless

[Bindi]

No matter what branch of yoga you are on you will need some discipline at the beginning and then surrender to divine grace towards the end, even if you are on the intellectual path the more you sweep away concepts and delusions the closer you are brought to surrender. You will never achieve it on your own without help.

 

There can be people that help on the way, but I don't think anyone else can ever take you to Self-realisation. The Guru within, the Spirit within, sure, absolutely, but expecting someone else to bring you to Self-realisation seems doomed to me.

 

I accept that a Guru might bring about a certain transient state in devotees, more permanent if you stay permanently with the Guru, but Self-realisation or enlightenment, I don't believe it.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Bindi

[Bindi]

One might look at Eckhart Tolle quite differently than with the idea that he just woke up spontaneously. Invariably one wakes up at some stop gap in the frequencies of ones karma - in other words - at some point the noise of it stops - the inertia is not - and Awakening occurs. This is often the case in tiring of ones own karmic frequency - the self made illusion that is your karma.

 

Eckhart thought of suicide frequently - it was this very thinking and considerable heat that had him question the one thinking it. And he Awoke.

 

Regarding Vasanas - we tend to put them in neat packages that are well labeled - but they are often very fine thin inertia's - deep within - and they have created both deep furrows and infinitesimally fine circuitry. Practice prior to Awakening does allow for many to fall away - and it can create the habit of seeing them. The siddhis are latched onto before and often after Awakening - previous experience in this is invaluable.

 

Often healing powers, many so called magical powers, seeing - these are part and parcel to growth - but however much people give lip service to the idea that these should not be allowed to "hold one back" - they very slyly clothe one with the patina of their powers and without knowing it - the relatively newly Awakened will 99% of the time consider their "position" far far far far far higher than it is.

 

it is in the increasing understanding that we know nothing that the onion peels away time after time as we continue to transform. The bodies continue to refine in the grace of stillness and gratitude. This occurs far beyond the awareness of most that have Awakened.

 

How many 'awakened' people ever even gain siddhis? And if gained, are they permanent anyway? Most seem to just have a change in perspective, and apparently they equate this change in perspective with being beyond ego, though ego clothes this realisation just as it might clothe a siddhi. 

 

'The relatively newly Awakened will 99% of the time consider their "position" far far far far far higher than it is', but does this necessarily change with time?

[Jetsun]

One might look at Eckhart Tolle quite differently than with the idea that he just woke up spontaneously. Invariably one wakes up at some stop gap in the frequencies of ones karma - in other words - at some point the noise of it stops - the inertia is not - and Awakening occurs. This is often the case in tiring of ones own karmic frequency - the self made illusion that is your karma.

 

Eckhart thought of suicide frequently - it was this very thinking and considerable heat that had him question the one thinking it. And he Awoke.

 

Regarding Vasanas - we tend to put them in neat packages that are well labeled - but they are often very fine thin inertia's - deep within - and they have created both deep furrows and infinitesimally fine circuitry. Practice prior to Awakening does allow for many to fall away - and it can create the habit of seeing them. The siddhis are latched onto before and often after Awakening - previous experience in this is invaluable.

 

Often healing powers, many so called magical powers, seeing - these are part and parcel to growth - but however much people give lip service to the idea that these should not be allowed to "hold one back" - they very slyly clothe one with the patina of their powers and without knowing it - the relatively newly Awakened will 99% of the time consider their "position" far far far far far higher than it is.

 

it is in the increasing understanding that we know nothing that the onion peels away time after time as we continue to transform. The bodies continue to refine in the grace of stillness and gratitude. This occurs far beyond the awareness of most that have Awakened.

Eckhart did turn around and question his own existence, yet thousands of others have done this and not awakened. What is the difference between them? Some could call it randomness or grace.

 

One of my own teachers says that for a deep permanent awakening to occur one has to be at the end of their karmic journey and be close to working through their last karmic knots, only then will awakening occur as basically there is nowhere else to go. So with Eckhart Tolle he was already close to it when he entered this life and basically had nowhere left to go to try to get away from his suffering, he knew on a soul level that avoidance and suicide don't work , only place left to see through the dream and wake up out of it.

[Spotless]

How many 'awakened' people ever even gain siddhis? And if gained, are they permanent anyway? Most seem to just have a change in perspective, and apparently they equate this change in perspective with being beyond ego, though ego clothes this realisation just as it might clothe a siddhi.

 

'The relatively newly Awakened will 99% of the time consider their "position" far far far far far higher than it is', but does this necessarily change with time?

We already all have many siddhis - upon awakening many of them will begin to be seen - simply because the noise and constant dissipation stop.

 

Awakening is unequivocally "not just a change in perspective" - this is an entirely conceptual view.

 

One who has Awakened has undergone a radical shift - I did not in any way mean to undermine the extrodinary change that Awakening brings - it is astounding in every way. From the outside it might appear that little has happened but assumption and spiritual competition is part of the greater noise in the illusion.

 

Try not to see the remnants of personality in one who has Awakened with continued abidance IN them - their is no glue in the remnants - and notice that very few play the role suddenly of perfect people (this is more apt to be the case pre-Awakening) - an Awakened person is no longer living in the pettiness of noise and position so they may appear to be less animated and this is because they Are less animated.

 

Some that Awaken - particularly those that have only been Awake for a year or so - may carry considerable ego behaviors forward. They will often be very un-attached to these behaviors - and yet some position will remain until it does not.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Spotless

[Jeff]

No matter what branch of yoga you are on you will need some discipline at the beginning and then surrender to divine grace towards the end, even if you are on the intellectual path the more you sweep away concepts and delusions the closer you are brought to surrender. You will never achieve it on your own without help.

Excellent point.

[Spotless]

Upon Awakening language is lost. Their are no words for what has happened. It requires time to acclimate - the bodies expand.

 

It is in the re-introduction to language that remnant position can be seen but is often trodden over. An Awakened person may see themselves and where they may wish to dissolve in this or over-ride it in ways they have before. Those with more flamboyant previous personalities may appear even more colorful in some ways and yet be in very high stillness or not. While other more subtle types may be in far less clarity but appear to be far more settled.

 

The language and the speed of its re adoption is often a matter of setting upon lineage - not nessarily ones previous lineage - many have no previous lineage. This is often problematic - in that it gives quick voice in others terms to what is coming from the newly acclimating Enlightening experience/being. A great deal of "momentum" is often staid by this. An may rest in this and "position" in this.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Spotless

[Bindi]

Excellent point.

 

Who helped Buddha? Who helped Ramana? It seems to me the ones who went the furthest were the least helped.

[Bindi]

Upon Awakening for many they have lost language. Their are no words for what has happened. It requires time to acclimate - the bodies expand.

 

It is in the re-introduction to language that remnant position can be seen but is often trodden over. An Awakened person may see themselves and where they may wish to dissolve in this or over-ride it in ways they have before. Those with more flamboyant previous personalities may appear even more colorful in some ways and yet be in very high stillness or not. While other more subtle types may be in far less clarity but appear to be far more settled.

 

The language and the speed of its re adoption is often a matter of setting upon lineage - not nessarily ones previous lineage - many have no previous lineage. This is often problematic - in that it gives quick voice in others terms to what is coming from the newly acclimating Enlightening experience/being. A great deal of "momentum" is often staid by this. An may rest in this and "position" in this.

 

There is a state beyond ego which very few seem to achieve. For example:

 

In the case of Sri Ramana, the ego ended in the experience in Madurai, and from that moment onwards, Sri Ramana says there was no change in his experience. That is consistent with Sri Ramana’s description of Sahaja Samadhi.

 

The case if Sri Nisargadatta is quite different.

 

Sri Nisargadatta continued until the end of his life to describe the changes that were occurring. For example he said that previously he thought he was free of the ‘I am the body’ identification but that now he could see that some had remained, etc.

 

In Sahaja Samadhi there is no longer an entity that can undergo changes in the level of ‘I am the body’ identification and there is no longer an entity that can go on learning about itself and there are no parts in the Self so that one part can be revealed to another part.

 

Thus the state that Sri Ramana Maharshi was in is called Sahaja Samadhi. The state that Sri Nisargadatta was in and out of and in and out of is called kevala samadhi.

 

Also Sri Nisargadatta had the view that after Self-Realization there is an endless journey of discovering oneself. Both these are consistent with those who go in and out of kevala Samadhi. However those descriptions are completely inconsistent with Sahaja Samadhi.

 

http://albigen.com/uarelove/sahaja.htm

[Jeff]

Who helped Buddha? Who helped Ramana? It seems to me the ones who went the furthest were the least helped.

Just look at all buddhist "completion stage" practices. They are all about drawing upon the support of past Buddhas.

 

"When true egolessness of things and persons is understood, discrimination ceases to assert itself; the lower mind-system ceases to fuction; the various Bodhisattva stages are followed one after another; the Bodhisattva is able to utter his ten inexhaustible vows and is anointed by all the Buddhas."

-Lankavatara sutra

[dwai]

Who helped Buddha? Who helped Ramana? It seems to me the ones who went the furthest were the least helped.

You only consider one apparently single lifetime. Spiritual evolution traverses many apparent lifetimes...

 

Karma plays a HUGE role until the abidence in the Self is remembered....

[Jetsun]

Who helped Buddha? Who helped Ramana? It seems to me the ones who went the furthest were the least helped.

But at the end it wasn't their own efforts which moved them over, the Buddha and Ramana didn't even wake up... something else woke up through them , the same thing in both.

 

So the help isn't going to be necisarrily from another separate being, but from being itself, waking itself up. As ourselves as ego we simply won't take the last step as it is too annhilatory , something else has to come in.