roger

truly effortless meditation.....a new way of meditating

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I discovered this when I was doing non-meditation (no effort, no technique), and I feel that, for me at least, it's a very important insight about a very effective and powerful approach to meditating.

 

Even though I've practiced non-meditation for years, I realized that I still hadn't fully grasped the idea of "no effort". There was always some effort to be at peace and quiet my mind.

 

Try meditating like this: Just sit there. Don't use ANY effort at all. Sit there like a dog or cat, or like when you're driving your car.

 

I've found this way of meditating to be very effective, and I feel that it captures the true spirit and meaning of meditation.

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Yep.  Effort (setting a goal) causes the mind to work.  IMO that's counter-productive.

 

What you pointed at above is what I believe to be the beginning of empty-minded meditation.

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I discovered this when I was doing non-meditation (no effort, no technique), and I feel that, for me at least, it's a very important insight about a very effective and powerful approach to meditating.

 

Even though I've practiced non-meditation for years, I realized that I still hadn't fully grasped the idea of "no effort". There was always some effort to be at peace and quiet my mind.

 

Try meditating like this: Just sit there. Don't use ANY effort at all. Sit there like a dog or cat, or like when you're driving your car.

 

I've found this way of meditating to be very effective, and I feel that it captures the true spirit and meaning of meditation.

yeah, but getting there via the rote method of ingraining maximal efficiency of breath movements, tackling and transforming the neural resonances sufficiently well....and THEN sit down with "no effort"...it takes a bit to get there, but like climbing a mountain, its worth the hike up and back to get that perspective.  this is indicated all over the place in the yijing hexagrams and yang transforming to yin.  not putting in the yang, the yin doesnt go as deep, the resultant arising spark of yang isnt as bright, and so forth...

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Sitting there is an effort...maybe to be truly effortless, you can do anything you want with the body.

Yeah, but that's more at wu wei.  It takes a lot longer to get there than it does to acquire a good form of meditation.

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... It takes a lot longer to get there...

Especially if you think it does. ;)

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Edit typo

Edited by rene
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I find giving my mind a repetitive chore, ie counting breaths up to 100, is so boring it drives me out of my mind; a good thing. 

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I find giving my mind a repetitive chore, ie counting breaths up to 100, is so boring it drives me out of my mind; a good thing. 

 

that's the essential purpose of repetition in meditative techniques. Give the mind something to do, over and over again. And as you get better at it, it induces a state like driving a car. Only thing is, we don't turn our mind back onto the source while driving (recipe for disaster...I know from personal experience...close shave...don't ask)...whereas with "safer" meditation inducers, we can...

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Sorry to say that this will not lead you to ¬†Wuwei ¬†or anything productive, rather it leads you to unproductive/ pseudo- emptiness ('ŚĀáÁ©ļ' ) that ¬†people are already repeatedly ¬†warned of not to be trapped in.

Edited by exorcist_1699
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Sorry to say that this will not lead you to ¬†Wuwei ¬†or anything productive, rather it leads you to unproductive/ pseudo- emptiness ('ŚĀáÁ©ļ' ) that ¬†people are already repeatedly ¬†warned of not to be trapped in.

 

Interesting statement.  I won't support or deny it.

 

However,

 

It is my understanding that meditation is intended to quieten the monkey mind.  That is all.  I believe there to be nothing beyond that regarding meditation.

 

True, it is not directly productive but I think it can be said that it is indirectly productive if we have cleared our mind of the trash that is always there and allows us to think rationally and logically.

 

But I will agree that meditation does not lead to wu wei.  Actually, there is no place to go to find wu wei.  Wu wei either comes to us or it doesn't.  Wu wei is a state of being, a condition.  There is no place to go to find it.

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A foundamental skill like "collecting the Heart/mind" for instance obviously requires the intent 

 

Wu Zhen Pian says: "It begins with doing, and hardly can one see a thing, when it comes to non-doing, all begin to understand. But if you only see non-doing as the essential marvel, how can you know that doing is the foundation? "

(Trad. Pregadio)

 

Umm...'the doing'  meant by WZP,  is not the intent  of which you are talking. These two are totally different things.

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If Wuwei is the goal, Youwei is the mean to reach it.

 

Thanks for expanding on this.  I thought it is an important concept/consideration and wanted someone beside myself to speak to it.

 

Yes, doing with intent is you wei; doing without intent is wu wei.

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Umm...'the doing'  meant by WZP,  is not the intent  of which you are talking. These two are totally different things.

 

Okay, for my benefit (and hopefully others) I would ask you speak further to this.

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Okay, for my benefit (and hopefully others) I would ask you speak further to this.

Sure, anytime.

 

Cultivating Ming requires "doing" (youwei), while cultivating Xing is done by "non-doing" (wuwei). A poem of the Wuzhen pian ("Jueju", no. 42) describes the Neidan process as beginning with "doing" and ending with "non-doing":

It begins with doing, and hardly can one see a thing; 

when it comes to non-doing, all begin to understand. 

But if you only see non-doing as the essential marvel, 

how can you know that doing is the foundation?

 

 

http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/nanzong_beizong.html

 

 

 

 

 

That's what doing is in WZP: Cultivating Ming. Is that 'intent'? Of course not. Whoever was misled to believe it is, should ask for his money back. :D 

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Sorry to say that this will not lead you to ¬†Wuwei ¬†or anything productive, rather it leads you to unproductive/ pseudo- emptiness ('ŚĀáÁ©ļ' ) that ¬†people are already repeatedly ¬†warned of not to be trapped in.

 

I didn't mean that we shouldn't take productive or wise, loving action.

 

It's a meditation technique that clears the mind of illusion, creates peace in life, and empowers one to do good and to take more effective action.

 

A quiet mind can immensely help a person to live more productively.

 

"Pseudo-emptiness" comes from the suppression of the contents of consciousness, not the release and transcendence of it.

Edited by roger
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I didn't mean that we shouldn't take productive or wise, loving action.

 

It's a meditation technique that clears the mind of illusion, creates peace in life, and empowers one to do good and to take more effective action.

 

A quiet mind can immensely help a person to live more productively.

 

"Pseudo-emptiness" comes from the suppression of the contents of consciousness, not the release and transcendence of it.

 

Sorry to say that most people's understandings of Zen,  or those Zen-like stuff , are distorted  , if not seriously wrong . In order to make your meditation productive, the path you should follow is : 

 

Eliminate the daily fluctuating minds =>  attain no-Mind and hold it as long as you  can  =>  when   a stop of ordinary breathing  come upon you  , you nourish and hold it with no intention =>  emergence of embryonic  breathing =>....

 

 

Only a mindless Mind is the Right Mind ( 'ś≠£ŚŅĶ' ) that people ¬†should pursue , all other intentions, say " clear the mind of illusion , create peace in life.." ¬†, for example , ¬†are mental activities ¬†that ¬†already adding ¬†extra minds to it ; ¬†in fact , you can't ¬†attain no-mind by adding an extra mind ( an intention to clear something or an expectation to create .., whatever it is ) ¬†to it ¬†; ¬†by using such way of searching , it is not strange that most practitioners can't attain ¬† a mindless Mind, and therefore can't understand the core of Taoist practice and the saying that a grasp of ¬†Zen can be some kind of shortcut to achieving the Taoist Golden Dan. Sadly, what many people ¬†rather like ¬†to do is to¬†deliberately ¬†circulate their so-called Micro- Cosmic Circulation . ¬†But if there is no open of ¬†the Magic Gateway, there is no genuine MCC.. ,so what they do ¬†is in the end ¬†all in vain ...

Edited by exorcist_1699
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... in fact , you can't attain no-mind by adding an extra mind ( an intention to clear something or an expectation to create .., whatever it is ) to it...

Does that include the extra-mind created by seeking to attain no-mind? Thanks!

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Yes, exactly .

Your suggestion, then, to pursue is almost as useless as my can't find what isn't lost :lol:

 

It's fun to try though, to find words that will come close - all the while knowing words won't work - and your words are enjoyable to read.

 

Warm regards

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edit typo

Edited by rene
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Sorry to say that most people's understandings of Zen,  or those Zen-like stuff , are distorted  , if not seriously wrong . In order to make your meditation productive, the path you should follow is : 

 

Eliminate the daily fluctuating minds =>  attain no-Mind and hold it as long as you  can  =>  when   a stop of ordinary breathing  come upon you  , you nourish and hold it with no intention =>  emergence of embryonic  breathing =>....

 

 

Only a mindless Mind is the Right Mind ( 'ś≠£ŚŅĶ' ) that people ¬†should pursue , all other intentions, say " clear the mind of illusion , create peace in life.." ¬†, for example , ¬†are mental activities ¬†that ¬†already adding ¬†extra minds to it ; ¬†in fact , you can't ¬†attain no-mind by adding an extra mind ( an intention to clear something or an expectation to create .., whatever it is ) ¬†to it ¬†; ¬†by using such way of searching , it is not strange that most practitioners can't attain ¬† a mindless Mind, and therefore can't understand the core of Taoist practice and the saying that a grasp of ¬†Zen can be some kind of shortcut to achieving the Taoist Golden Dan. Sadly, what many people ¬†rather like ¬†to do is to¬†deliberately ¬†circulate their so-called Micro- Cosmic Circulation . ¬†But if there is no open of ¬†the Magic Gateway, there is no genuine MCC.. ,so what they do ¬†is in the end ¬†all in vain ...

 

You're making a very good point imo, and one about which there's a lot of disagreement.

 

Krishnamurti would probably agree with you. He says that the very search for emptiness (what you're calling no-mind) is a denial of it.

 

Other teachers have encouraged an active and passionate search for enlightenment, and have their particular methods and approaches to achieve it.

 

The thing is that the "extra mind" that you're talking about (which you're saying is an impediment and a negative thing) can be thought of simply as the TRUE Mind, the Christ Mind, the Buddha Consciousness.

 

I've always felt that my desire for and search for enlightenment arose out of my divine nature.

 

But it gets very difficult because the seeker can get caught up in "agendas", which are an avoidance of and a distraction from one's truly loving, divine purpose. (I use the word "agenda" to express an unloving purpose which arises out of fear, and "purpose" to express a path that comes from love)

 

It may indeed be that for YOU, not seeking or wanting is the truly loving approach. I just feel that for some, having a well-defined goal of finding enlightenment, and even following the method that suits them, is right for THEM.

 

This is just my opinion but I could be mistaken.

 

My main concern for myself and other seekers is whether one is seeking honestly, and is sincerely fulfilling their purpose, or do they have agendas and are not truly walking the path with genuine integrity.

Edited by roger
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This really resonates with me roger.

 

My process of late, is almost entirely based on radical release.

Complete acceptance of the now and letting go of all process, expectation and aversion.

 

In this complete release, illusions fall away as water flows downhill.  Effortlessly.

That which abides... pure being, clarity, bliss, these words come to mind, but it's nigh on impossible to describe it in words.

 

simple being.

pure awareness.

raw, potent beyond description

blissfully calm and centered

deeply grounded while floating free

 

all these words bring a tiny sense of the experiential awareness of it... yet they pale to the task of transmitting the experience.

few truer words for me in the TTC than " the tao that can be spoken, is not the eternal tao."

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