What is Dao?

[dawei]

those who get to the realm of no words, can use words and explain how to get there... People love to speak about void, but when asked about how to get there start answering various no-sense. 

 

It doesn't take words to get there.  And it is not the void.  It is simply beyond our senses and yet within ourselves.  Until the veil is pulled back and the interconnection of what Dao represents reveals itself within, it will just be non-sense.    

[opendao]

It doesn't take words to get there.  And it is not the void.  It is simply beyond our senses and yet within ourselves.  Until the veil is pulled back and the interconnection of what Dao represents reveals itself within, it will just be non-sense.    

 

ok, let's try from another side: so how "Dao represents itself within"?

[Wu Ming Jen]

Tao is considered to have ineffable qualities that prevent it from being defined or expressed in words.

It can, however, be known or experienced, and its principles (which can be discerned by observing Nature) can be followed or practiced.

 

 The Tao is in everyday living. The spiritual is the mundane. The day in, day out rhythm and our own light of awareness.

 

Change your light, change your world, True freedom can not be won by war but the battle must take place of who is in charge> Is it going to be the self we create trapped in a temporary body or the spirit before time as we "know" it?

 

Who is willing to do the effortless work? Who can wait for the flower to bloom and release sweet perfume. Who can be themselves and a flower at the same time and not know the difference?

[dawei]

ok, let's try from another side: so how "Dao represents itself within"?

 

In my experience only... 

 

Our senses know Dao as a guiding principle..  However much one tries to understand it (in nature) or align to it (in practice or it naturally comes) is still only 50%.  

 

Heaven and earth don't talk with words but with energy.  We can tune into it.  IMO, that is still just part of the 50%.

 

The rest is beyond our senses because what we perceive and experience is but an echo or shadow for the benefit of the manifest world.  

 

I think for some, they focus on quieting themselves (meditation) or through other energy and/or spiritual practices, are connecting to the deeper, primordial aspects of Oneness or Emptiness.    I can't really speak to these as they are not my path but this is my assessment and observation.

 

All I can say is that beyond the 50% is pure interconnection of not just collected consciousness (yes, you can connect with another person's consciousness) but the basis for Singularity (including time-space wrapped on itself).  

 

I would not claim to know the void as I don't know what that even means, but I suspect what I describe is but another echo or shadow. 

[Bindi]

I would say Dao represents itself within as the golden fetus.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Have you ever heard anyone say, hey I heard the Tao talking to me the other night.

 

Wordless teaching, weird that's like the formless form or the gateless gate.

 

Everything is alive and speaking to us without words constantly however we wish to describe it,vibrations, waves, energy, bioelectrica or Chi with has a much broader meaning.  Because we have our own energy system we can interact.

 

Animals communicate without words yet still speak to us. We are swimming in a unlimited source of awareness so we could choose the listen or just keep our minds busy so we do not hear the soundless song.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Wu Ming Jen

[opendao]

I would say Dao represents itself within as the golden fetus.

 

bravo Bindi 

 

"In the Universe the most valuable are Dao and De, the most difficult to receive - human, for humans the most difficult - to receive Dao and De in own body."

 

Who can quote Lao Zi to prove that Dao in humans starts as Dao Tai (fetus of Dao)?

 

It's hard, so a hint is probably needed: daotai becomes yangshen, yangshen can do some unusual things, and Lao Zi describes them 

[dawei]

I would say Dao represents itself within as the golden fetus.

 

I used to believe and follow that idea...  that local perception just lead to another level of understanding.

 

But I think it is a useful concept for a given level. 

[Marblehead]

"Dao gave birth ..."

 

Prior to the birth it was a fetus so the concept is valid.

 

But we don't need go very deep to understand this.  Just look to nature.  We can see it everywhere.

 

 

BTW  The void is "Wu".

Edited February 29, 2016 by Marblehead

[Michael Sternbach]

wrong guess, my source is obvious: the traditional school of Dao, that trace back its practical methods and understanding to Lao Zi.

 

What is your lineage, exactly?

 

So I asked you, and got the response that you're allergic to dust and learn from "internal daoist".

Did I understand something wrong?

 

Yes. My dust allergy awakens only when there is too much dust in relation to fresh air, that is when people keep putting what master X once said on a pedestal while discouraging new and creative thought from entering the discussion.

 

I did say it about other people, because you said you don't read classics at all ))

 

Oh, I do read and value classical texts. In the area of Daoism, this includes the DDJ and Chuang Tzu, among others.

 

Same as in the phrase "who speaks doesn't know, who knows doesn't speak".

 

It's all about "teaching without words". 

 

While there are things that defy verbal expression, to me, language is a powerful tool which, used skillfully, can indeed express subtle insights and internal experiences in a way that others can relate to them.

 

So you use words, but don't know what they mean? Ok, let's skip it.

 

Well, how could I know what the Zen master meant, when he couldn't possibly have known it himself? For if he would have known it already, there would have been no need for him to learn it, right? In other words, dear OD: You never know what you don't know!

 

That said, it would likely have to do with original spontaneity. A lot of both Daoism and Zen is about deconditioning the mind back to its "child like" innocent and intuitive grasp of things.

 

It changes, but there are principles how humans can change with it.

 

Lao Zi explained that, and this explanation is still valid while human body inner laws are the same.

 

There are some external changes in the teaching since that time, but the principles are the same.

 

Yes, the principles remain always the same, but the ways they play out are so manifold and varied that the truth of the Dao cannot be recorded once and for all. Studying the Yijing helps one become aware of Dao's constantly changing manifestation.

 

Lao Tzu therefore did something very astute: He provided a short text that treats the principles in almost pure form, allowing a wide scope of interpretations and applications, in many different contexts, on many levels. That's what is making the book so universal and timeless. So,however right your interpretation may be, it doesn't make a different interpretation wrong. (Hint, hint! )

 

What is crucial to understand, the DDJ's ambiguity is not due to a shortcoming of the text or of the reader, but is purposefully built into it by design. It is in fact a trait inherent to the Chinese language that Lao Tzu brings to the boil.

 

"When words are not necessary at all" is better. 

 

There is a big difference between teaching Dao to someone and make hints about Dao.

 

In teaching there is no need for words.

 

In guiding to a right direction it's hard to avoid words, especially using texts / internet.

Everything has its time to use.

 

True. However, words can reflect and accentuate inner knowledge in their receiver that quite transcends them. Therein lies the value of a text like the DDJ.

[flowing hands]

flowing hands,

 

When you first joined ttb as a member, I remember visiting your website and seeing your sincere offer of spiritual help to seekers.

 

When a person is inspired to explore spirituality more deeply, the path towards spiritual clarity can be long. And confusion and misrepresentation of achievements and abilities of teachers may be experienced. Or not. Seeing a teacher clearly depends if one can intuit the congruency between the apparent and the subtle. But how can we know for sure when the wool is being pulled over our spiritual eyes by another person, when we ourselves are works-in-progress?

 

What interests me in your comment above is your mention of pur[ity].

 

If a person or immortal is pure/holy, no one can debase her/him. And if one does aim to debase a holy person/achieved immortal, any punishment or ramification would not ensue as a result from being taught a lesson by said holy person. Rather, the consequences or "hardships" are simply a result in said person's current state of spiritual development. I mean to say: we learn our lessons from our own small lives.

 

Achieved immortals are not in the business of punishment. That is not their interest and expertise.

 

 

An achieved one said:

 

If nature creates trouble for us, we can survive.

If we create trouble for ourselves, there is no one who can save us.

 

This a good point and needs to be explained. 'Punishment' does not exist it is 'learning' that exists. Many Bums on here talk about self development and cultivation, but to know oneself, as it is written requires strength and courage. Why one might ask? Because we cannot see ourselves and it takes someone else to tell us what we are doing. To truly learn about ourselves and others requires real challenges, these may be terrible lessons involving life threatening incidences, but they are taught to us so that we really do learn. So a person like opendao who assumes he is so right and yet I have not seen anything of value that he has said to give me the impression that he actually knows anything, then decides out of his own ego, to debunk anything that is outside his very limited experience. We know he has a limited experience, because once faced with a traditional practice he debunked it and called it by the wrong Chinese words. I for one was immediately suspicious of this person and his intentions on this board. Hence forth he has mocked me and my masters teachings, even though it is a traditional practice, he has mocked my DDJ that Lao Tzu taught me, he has openly mocked the Immortals. So opendao won't be 'punished' as such, a very real lesson will be taught to him about himself in time. Of course the Immortals don't really have to show their hand, the energy that he has given will return to him.

 

Of course an Immortal is not bothered by any profanity or anything that is said about them or towards them, they are beyond this. But come face to face with a person who is taught and communicates with them, they will suddenly take an interest in what is being said. Hours spent teaching a person like me, money and hours spent giving away that teaching to others for free is an investment that the Immortal masters have made only for the sake of others. That is a very valued gift. To debase it and not to give it any credence is an open invitation for the Immortal master to give a harsh reality lesson. 

[opendao]

Yes, the principles remain always the same, but the ways they play out are so manifold and varied that the truth of the Dao cannot be recorded once and for all. Studying the Yijing helps one become aware of Dao's constantly changing manifestation.

 

Lao Tzu therefore did something very astute: He provided a short text that treats the principles in almost pure form, allowing a wide scope of interpretations and applications, in many different contexts, on many levels. That's what is making the book so universal and timeless. So,however right your interpretation may be, it doesn't make a different interpretation wrong. (Hint, hint! )

 

There are different layers of the texts, but confusion about the meaning is a natural result of no experience.

[opendao]

Of course an Immortal is not bothered by any profanity or anything that is said about them or towards them, they are beyond this. But come face to face with a person who is taught and communicates with them, they will suddenly take an interest in what is being said. Hours spent teaching a person like me, money and hours spent giving away that teaching to others for free is an investment that the Immortal masters have made only for the sake of others. That is a very valued gift. To debase it and not to give it any credence is an open invitation for the Immortal master to give a harsh reality lesson. 

 

Stop inventing.  What if Immortals really come to you one day? Just not in dreams, but in reality, ah? They will give you another "harsh lesson" for all the souls you mislead...

 

"But some foolishly take a single saying or half sentence to be the Tao! And from eons ago until now, they have all been the blind leading the blind, ensnaring immeasurable numbers of believers deep into the Nine Springs of Hell, where in the end they cannot lift their heads to see the Buddha's radiance." (written by a real Immortal by the way)

 

That's how it works: fantasies become convictions, beliefs lead to blindness, blindness to advocacy. People become stubborn and destroy own destiny and the life of their followers:

 

"Thus  after  we  are  born, we  die  and  after  we  die  we  will  be born  again.  When there  is  birth  there  will  be  death.  Despite countless  cycles  of rebirth,  we  continue  to  be  stubborn  and ignorant."

 

Any solution? There is only one: a Teacher. A real physical teacher, with a lineage, with a school, with texts, complete methods and results. 

 

So far those who were attentive and not stubborn, could understand what is Dao, and what is "returning to the origin". If such result wasn't gained, then it's not the Dao teaching at all, in spite of terminology, messiah's prophets, smart comments, appealing to the names of Immortals and so on. Only result is the proof.

 

Now we can also understand how far people are from Dao, and how hard is to return...

[Marblehead]

The way this thread is going I might convert to Buddhism.

[dawei]

Stop inventing.  What if Immortals really come to you one day? Just not in dreams, but in reality, ah? They will give you another "harsh lesson" for all the souls you mislead...

 

"But some foolishly take a single saying or half sentence to be the Tao! And from eons ago until now, they have all been the blind leading the blind, ensnaring immeasurable numbers of believers deep into the Nine Springs of Hell, where in the end they cannot lift their heads to see the Buddha's radiance." (written by a real Immortal by the way)

 

That's how it works: fantasies become convictions, beliefs lead to blindness, blindness to advocacy. People become stubborn and destroy own destiny and the life of their followers:

 

"Thus  after  we  are  born, we  die  and  after  we  die  we  will  be born  again.  When there  is  birth  there  will  be  death.  Despite countless  cycles  of rebirth,  we  continue  to  be  stubborn  and ignorant."

 

Any solution? There is only one: a Teacher. A real physical teacher, with a lineage, with a school, with texts, complete methods and results. 

 

So far those who were attentive and not stubborn, could understand what is Dao, and what is "returning to the origin". If such result wasn't gained, then it's not the Dao teaching at all, in spite of terminology, messiah's prophets, smart comments, appealing to the names of Immortals and so on. Only result is the proof.

 

Now we can also understand how far people are from Dao, and how hard is to return...

 

~~~~ ADMIN NOTICE ~~~~

 

We can disagree but your ever-present desire to insult other's traditions/practice/path veers far from the kind of exchange we would otherwise welcome at TDB. 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Gerard]

The way this thread is going I might convert to Buddhism.

 

Like this?

 

 

 

But hey the Buddhists monks I met in Chiang Mai were not the likes you find online, they even a picture about what is Nibbana?

 

 

 

They walk the Dharma with their barefeet, don't like to talk about Nirvana tricks at all.

 

So what is the Dao?

 

It's like a box of chocolates...

 

The 'simple' people find the Dao more than the most elocuent of men.

[Marblehead]

Like this?

 

Well, that would be a good starting point, yes.

 

But hey the Buddhists monks I met in Chiang Mai were not the likes you find online, they even a picture about what is Nibbana?

 

 

 

They walk the Dharma with their barefeet, don't like to talk about Nirvana tricks at all.

To be honest, and although I have not met many Buddhists in real life, I cannot recall a single negative experience with any of them.

 

 

So what is the Dao?

 

It's like a box of chocolates...

Would that be Cat Stevens' "Buddha and the Chocolate Box?  But Cat is a Muslim.

 

The 'simple' people find the Dao more than the most elocuent of men.

Yes, I have spoke to this before.  Really, knowledge has nothing to do with the Spirit of Dao.  The poor uneducated man working his field, day after day, year after year, knows more about the processes of Dao than most of us do.

[Brian]

Well, that would be a good starting point, yes.

 

To be honest, and although I have not met many Buddhists in real life, I cannot recall a single negative experience with any of them.

 

 

Would that be Cat Stevens' "Buddha and the Chocolate Box? But Cat is a Muslim.

 

Yes, I have spoke to this before. Really, knowledge has nothing to do with the Spirit of Dao. The poor uneducated man working his field, day after day, year after year, knows more about the processes of Dao than most of us do.

More like Forest Gump than Cat Stevens.

[opendao]

~~~~ ADMIN NOTICE ~~~~

 

We can disagree but your ever-present desire to insult other's traditions/practice/path veers far from the kind of exchange we would otherwise welcome at TDB. 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

So you think that by allowing the insults of the Daoist tradition and by supporting those, who intentionally do that all the time, it's possible to make TDB better? No surprise after a few years here, but still sad to read that...

 

Because to lie about the teaching is the same as insulting it.

To twist sacred texts to get fame and promote own ego is insulting for all the real Dao followers.

To have no arguments and fool people about Dao is insulting for all its practitioners as well.

 

But I'm happy that the words of Liu Huayang did scratch something in you, because my only desire was to bring a small glance of the traditional Daoism at TDB, as an alternative to various forged and false teachings. And I know for sure many people caught that glance, and I really respect them for that, whatever way or school they follow. Maybe somebody could do it more peaceful, but so far nobody would do it....

 

Thank for all participants for a nice discussion. I learnt a lot, and hopefully I gave you some food for thoughts as well.

 

---------------------------------------------

Last thing, for Marblehead:

 

 

In Buddhism the Dharma is the same as in Dao. As in all other true Traditions.

 

 

The End 

[dawei]

So you think that by allowing the insults of the Daoist tradition and by supporting those, who intentionally do that all the time, it's possible to make TDB better? No surprise after a few years here, but still sad to read that...

 

Because to lie about the teaching is the same as insulting it.

To twist sacred texts to get fame and promote own ego is insulting for all the real Dao followers.

To have no arguments and fool people about Dao is insulting for all its practitioners as well.

 

But I'm happy that the words of Liu Huayang did scratch something in you, because my only desire was to bring a small glance of the traditional Daoism at TDB, as an alternative to various forged and false teachings. And I know for sure many people caught that glance, and I really respect them for that, whatever way or school they follow. Maybe somebody could do it more peaceful, but so far nobody would do it....

 

Thank for all participants for a nice discussion. I learnt a lot, and hopefully I gave you some food for thoughts as well.

 

---------------------------------------------

Last thing, for Marblehead:

 

 

In Buddhism the Dharma is the same as in Dao. As in all other true Traditions.

 

 

The End 

 

I am happy for the thread to continue.  One of the better threads.   There is a saying about opinions, everyone has one.

 

Your allegiance to your teaching is what makes people respect you.  Your calling anyone out who doesn't agree produces a problem.  There is a common ground for discussion.

 

You certainly know, I have always been a supporter of your presence here.  I hope we can keep to topic.  

[Gerard]

I have already posted this DHARMA TALK a couple of times in the past:

 

No Religion

 

Key point:

 

"None of the great religious teachers ever gave a personal name to their teachings, like we do today. They just went about teaching us how to live unselfishly."

 

Ask our little friends about this religion or that religion, my religion is better than yours:

 

 

 

They would still chirp and smile. That's a sign of understanding what the Tao is all about.

 

Purity of the Heart is the Dharma and the Tao. Tre true source of the Spirit.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Gerard

[Sebastian]

I don't know what Dao is, but I don't think it's something to fight about.

 

It's like the air that we breathe, the earth that we tread, the Sun that shines on everything.

 

We are all nurtured equally by Nature, no matter what one may argue.

 

Those who have authentic spiritual lineages don't get special favors.

 

If we all come from the same source, breathe the same air, tread the same earth, what is there to fight about ?

 

Perhaps every person has their own understanding of nature, or Dao, and there are as many facets of understanding as there are human beings on the planet.

 

Perhaps Dao can not be conceptualized by simply one mind, it takes the whole of existence to experience it.  No one person can be right and everyone else wrong.

 

I don't think the Dao speaks intense language or preaches systems to reconnect to oneself, when Dao is already there to be enjoyed by all.

[Marblehead]

Well, I am working on eliminating the word "Dao" altogether because really, what we talk about is not Dao but rather "The De of Dao". 

 

My recent thinking is more at De and Ziran (Tzujan).  These are the functions of Dao and all its manifestations.

 

Again, Dao is understood via Philosophical, Religious, and Alchemic.  All three are valid.  Therefore all three must be offered equal respect.

[Brian]

Marblehead, can you stop thinking for a while and just be content in "De"ing?

I've come to understand that many people believe, on some level, that this is impossible. They've thought themselves into a corner and think they can think themselves out the same way they got in.

 

I used to be one of them.

 

It is sort of like watching a person struggle to swim back to shore in a rip current, wondering why they don't just stand up and walk. Until you realize the water is only knee-deep, the suggestion sounds insane.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"It is sort of like watching a person struggle to swim back to shore in a rip current, wondering why they don't just stand up and walk. Until you realize the water is only knee-deep, the suggestion sounds insane."

-----

 

This is an amazing description of the whole of modern "culture".

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus