3bob

faith in karma or does it need help....?

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Do you have faith in karma or does it need help in getting its job done  ?

 

(being that there are serious injustices pending resolution that you know of and or are a part of, yet there only being  so much time for you to see resolution take place)

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No , help needed, IMO . Unless you don't like the consequences that do happen... It takes care of itself,,, pay as U go.

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I don't have faith in Karma.  I tend to doubt there's a being or thing that's keeping score.  Often one reaps, what one sows but not always.   There are vast disagreements over the what's, why's and necessity of one's action.  

 

Helping Karma along, I think 'bad guys' are into that as often as the good.   Mankind being more rationalizing then rational. 

 

So for justice, I make rules, based on do the least harm, support life, freedom and prosperity, follow them and bend them where compassion allows.

 

 

addon> For all that, while I don't believe in Karma, I generally live as if it did exist.  Tends to make life better, simpler and more ethical.

Edited by thelerner

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Faith in karma? It's quite obvious that karmic energy is an accumulative bane within people. It's also quite obvious that the more this energy builds up the more detrimental it is to one's well-being. No need for faith when there is observation.

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In my view, karma transcends and is independent of faith or assistance. That very attempt to intervene will simply add to the cycle of action and consequence. Karma has no resolution, it is ongoing. It is simply human judgement which perceives injustice and desires resolution. 

 

I think when you ask the question "do you have faith in karma or does it need help in getting its job done?" what you are really asking is "do you believe that somehow there is a law or entity that leads to things working out to meet your expectations and, if not, do you tend to take matters into your own hands?" That is not karma, that is desire and aversion; said in another way, it is ignorance. No offense intended. This is perhaps the most common misinterpretation of karma and amounts to a projection of human values and expectations onto observed, unbiased action and consequences.

 

Karma is more in line with the Daoist principle discussed in a recent thread regarding the Dao and sage treating all beings as straw dogs.

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The idea of karma doesn't make sense if one doesn't accept the idea of multiple life experiences. That idea expresses many things and conditions. One of those expressions has to be something like:

A balance that is always restored is the acceptance that such a model exceeds the scope of a single lifetime.

I don't accept those conditions as a matter of faith nor reject the proposition as a claim of what the real is.
Pretty strange place to live in where radically different understandings of what is going on fit widely different experiences.

I know I am not helping, really. Thank you for your patience.

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In my view, karma transcends and is independent of faith or assistance. That very attempt to intervene will simply add to the cycle of action and consequence. Karma has no resolution, it is ongoing. It is simply human judgement which perceives injustice and desires resolution.

 

I think when you ask the question "do you have faith in karma or does it need help in getting its job done?" what you are really asking is "do you believe that somehow there is a law or entity that leads to things working out to meet your expectations and, if not, do you tend to take matters into your own hands?" That is not karma, that is desire and aversion; said in another way, it is ignorance. No offense intended. This is perhaps the most common misinterpretation of karma and amounts to a projection of human values and expectations onto observed, unbiased action and consequences.

 

Karma is more in line with the Daoist principle discussed in a recent thread regarding the Dao and sage treating all beings as straw dogs.

Yes, no resolution, just dissolution. At some point, it, too, is recognized to be a boat to be left on the shore.

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The wind blows but it does not require my faith...   and there goes Karma on its way too...

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I'd say all karmas are contained in the One - - being that the One contains all things, thus when the One dies so does karma...

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This  discussion is  about karma,  so  i am continuing a discussion (from another thread) with  "Spotless"  into this thread:

 

Spotless said "Ones entire Karmic Load is zero - ones propensities and the strength/compression/rigidity of them is ones Karma."

 

Steve has posted a good point in this thread.   What is being  described as  "propensities / proclivity / patterning"  has a cause.  The cause of these  proclivities / patterns / compressions,   is  the actions and thoughts from the past.   This is my way  of understanding your  views/words, within my foundation /framework (ie. the Buddhist  faith  regarding karma).   There is no good / bad as you pointed out in the other thread,  but as Steve pointed out here,  there is  action & consequences;   simply and justly,  as a law of universe,  nature  delivers  these consequences.   Buddhist philosophy accommodates rebirth and hence the concept of  karmic  repercussions  carrying over into many lifetimes.  It is not necessary that a action  bears fruit  within one life span.   Consequence is  simply a law of nature - similar to how the physical / material world has laws of physics.

 

I lack the ultimate wisdom/Enlightenment,  to directly see these things in my own mind/experience.  So,  i  choose to trust  in the teachings of  the Enlightened beings who have seen these truths directly in their experience.

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Steve, you're often wise and serious and responded seriously,  but FYI I was just stirring the pot. ;)

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I would like to know the meaning of 'karma'.

I understand it as 'action'. I don't think it has a meaning beyond that, or a descriptor, so it gets inferred.

 

If there is action then there should also be cause, but it maybe that this was intentionally or ignorantly omitted.

 

Therefore the guru can achieve the cause less cause and action less action.

 

That relates well to the idea of the ineffable one. The omniscient. The one that cannot be described as the one. Pretty much Plotinus in operation. It denies identity of the one and therefore our world is a very diluted illusion of Platos perfect forms.

 

Lots in a word eh ?

Edited by Karl

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As others have said, the common interpretation of 'karma' is silly. There is no cosmic judiciary rewarding and punishing us for our 'good' and 'bad' actions. Not only is there no evidence for it, there is plenty of evidence that people who live a harmful life doing shitty things may reap rewards, and people who live a relatively harmless life may encounter frequent trouble.

 

On the other hand, looking at it solely as 'action', it is obvious that certain actions lead to certain consequences.

 

If I throw my garbage out of the window and leave it in the street, if I shit in a bucket and never clear it away, my life will become filled with garbage and shit. (Then again, someone may take pity on my foolishness and clear it away for me.)

 

If I lead a life of considered ethics, nonviolence, healthy eating, hygiene, helping others when necessary, and work hard to achieve a situation where all this is possible, I will likely feel good, both mentally and physically. (Then again, a bucket-shitter might come along and decide he wants what I have, and torture and kill me for it.)

 

Most people don't fit into either of these categories. Most people, most of us included, are currently contributing to the pools of garbage and shit piling up around the world, though we also tend towards nonviolence, personal hygiene, health, charity, hard work, etc. We probably feel good about ourselves when we shouldn't, and bad when we should feel good.

 

So, yes: actions have consequences, which is my simple understanding of 'karma'. But it's not a simple calculation. Don't rely on it. Do what you can, don't expect paradise.

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As others have said, the common interpretation of 'karma' is silly. There is no cosmic judiciary rewarding and punishing us for our 'good' and 'bad' actions. Not only is there no evidence for it, there is plenty of evidence that people who live a harmful life doing shitty things may reap rewards, and people who live a relatively harmless life may encounter frequent trouble.

 

On the other hand, looking at it solely as 'action', it is obvious that certain actions lead to certain consequences.

 

If I throw my garbage out of the window and leave it in the street, if I shit in a bucket and never clear it away, my life will become filled with garbage and shit. (Then again, someone may take pity on my foolishness and clear it away for me.)

 

If I lead a life of considered ethics, nonviolence, healthy eating, hygiene, helping others when necessary, and work hard to achieve a situation where all this is possible, I will likely feel good, both mentally and physically. (Then again, a bucket-shitter might come along and decide he wants what I have, and torture and kill me for it.)

 

Most people don't fit into either of these categories. Most people, most of us included, are currently contributing to the pools of garbage and shit piling up around the world, though we also tend towards nonviolence, personal hygiene, health, charity, hard work, etc. We probably feel good about ourselves when we shouldn't, and bad when we should feel good.

 

So, yes: actions have consequences, which is my simple understanding of 'karma'. But it's not a simple calculation. Don't rely on it. Do what you can, don't expect paradise.

 

Ever thought of adopting the objectivist approach. What you have said is pretty much it. That if you do things that are against your virtues (virtues what ch are the direct result of existence, identity and processed knowledge.) then you take unearned values and so feel bad, if you stick to your virtues then you always feel good about your actions. You cannot account for the thief, murderer, or circumstance of life of course, only what you can do directly and no control over the absolutes.

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Steve, you're often wise and serious and responded seriously,  but FYI I was just stirring the pot. ;)

 

I'm also a concrete thinker and adding the electronic medium to the mix creates the perfect storm for me...

 

:)

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The following is from Pema Chodron´s book...Comfortable with Uncertainly: 108 Teachings on Cultivating Fearlessness and Compassion.

 

....................................................................................................................................................................

 

‘There’s a Zen story in which a man is enjoying himself on a river at dusk. He sees another boat coming down the river toward him. At first it seems so nice to him that someone else is also enjoying the river on a nice summer evening. Then he realizes that the boat is coming right toward him, faster and faster. He begins to yell, “Hey, hey, watch out! For Pete’s sake, turn aside!” But the boat just comes right at him faster and faster. By this time he’s standing up in his boat, screaming and shaking his fist, and then the boat smashes right into him. He sees that it’s an empty boat.

 

This is the classic story on our whole life situation. There are a lot of empty boats out there. We’re always screaming and shaking our fists at them. Instead, we could let them stop our minds. Even if they only stop our mind for one point one seconds, we can rest in that little gap. [...]. In this way everything we meet has the potential to help us cultivate compassion and reconnect with the spacious, open quality of our minds.’*

 

.........................................................................................................................................................................

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I to like contemplative type quotes often based on a protected type of lifestyle or out in nature somewhere,  even if they hardly apply to a high percentage of us who are living in and dealing with the "world". 

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3bob,

 

To the contrary, this story strikes me as very practical and directly applicable to the question at hand.  If, however, you think maybe I´m living a "protected type of lifestyle" and not "dealing with the [real] world," well, you wouldn´t be the first.

 

Liminal

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It's nice if we can get to the point where we can look at those empty boats we bump into as our teachers and guides, rather than obstacles and enemies. I love how Pema puts it - "rest in that little gap." It's so difficult to find that space when someone pulls out in front of us causing us to slam on our brakes to avoid a collision. It happened to me this morning. I found the space, but only after hitting the horn and yelling, what the fuck!?

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don't take that personally Luke, and I wasn't alluding to this string any more or less than to many hundreds of others that have   contemplative people quotes... 

 

anyway some of the good contemplative quotes can also be correlated to and used by people struggling in the world.

(via analogy)

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When you hear a noise or any other sense organ you let thief in and if you let it to the mind you will make inevitable move. It can take some time, the thief travels through different places in your body and once it reaches out again then it will delude your mind and play with you and you don't even know it it does.

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