Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[steve]

A teacher wrote that book.

So in your opinion, the  statements written in this book are wrong,

because the teacher wrote them down instead of telling them in person?

No? Then you have to accept them as they are.

Books have limitations, as do teachers - this is why both are important (refuge in lama, buddha, dharma, sangha).

Books can't answer questions. The "subject/object" being discussed cannot be comprehended by rational mind and different students (and teachers) have different aptitudes, hence multiple descriptions are necessary. 

One quote isn't enough, one book isn't enough...

Books also can't adjust their message to listeners with different needs...

Teachers do that.

So many things one gains from a relationship with a good teacher. 

 

 

 

I am more interested in BonPo sources...

 

But seriously. If you experience the world, you in fact "look into your own face" as you just experience vision manifested in your Natural State. That doesn't mean that the world, which caused your vision, doesn't in fact exist.

From Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyu studies, part II:

[referring to the recognition of the natural state through tsa lulng]

"First visualize the central channel described in this context as the Channel of the Lamps in which your Awareness (rigpa) blazes unobstructedly, shining like the sun in the blue sky. The luminosity emitted in this way by one's Awareness is known as the Transparent Wisdom or "Great Transparent Wisdom." It is designated as being "great" because it is beyond all dimensions and limitations. It cannot be limited to any spatial representation as it is per se limitless. It is also above and beyond any form of ordinary mental clarity, glow, etc., liable to be perceived by the sense. ......   it is not obtained at a given moment through the action of fortuitous circumstances or intentional projections. It abides as a non-discursive Pure Knowledge which is synonymous with Awareness."

 

Even your Thogal visions need secondary causes like sunlight, the clear empty sky or total darkness.

Incorrect - in fact, by definition the togël vision is a pure vision and not dependent on the eye or external causes.

That's the whole point. 

 

 

The big hook from the Tibetan hierarchy is one of special transmission which according to their legend and lore can't be obtained from a book. However, Norbu was of the opinion back in 1989 that one could not receive from a cassette tape. Times have changed and now he is on the internet and what one sees online is nothing more than a computer language in which the basis of is machine code; 10101010101 ad infinitum.   Almost everyone of those Lama's is still living in the Middle Ages.

The value of transmission is that it gives the teacher an opportunity to insure the conditions and communication are as good as they can be and give feedback to students to gauge their progress. That is their responsibility. Even in a weekend retreat, people ask questions and source material is clarified and commented upon.

 

Yes, times have changed and the new utilization of technology is a wonderful opportunity to share teachings and create cyber sanghas that are very supportive. The younger lamas are embracing these opportunities effectively. Transmission means less in that context but still valuable if there is authenticity and sincerity present. Otherwise the lessons are just here-say and more prone to misinterpretation (has is quite evident here, and elsewhere). 

 

Lots of opportunities now to interact with lamas and sanghas. These teachings are about connection - genuine and sincere human connection. Sitting in a room, alone, with a book and a laptop cannot teach lessons one needs to learn about human connection.

 

These teachings were originally oral - and that tradition continues and adds a dimension of confidence and authority that cannot be achieved with self study. Ultimately, of course, we do the work ourselves but having a credible, living, evolving, and responsive reference is very precious.

 

The other important point about transmission is that it is a two way street. If it doesn't support your personal practice, it's irrelevant to you. If you do not connect with these teachings, that's fine. Move on to something that works for you. No need to painfully criticize all the time. These methods do work quite effectively for many people and, of course, there are imperfections. 

Edited January 6, 2016 by steve

[Kar3n]

I disagree that we are all one. Why? Non separate being does not imply one big lump of chummy togetherness, but individuality in the system.

 As it is evident from many of your posts, I completely understand why you would respond this way.

 

 

Just pointing out the mental cherry picking.

Of course it is more uplifting to assume to already be one with Buddha.

Not cherry picking, but if that is what you perceive it to be, so be it.

The should have given you some indication of humor here.

In an attempt to clarify for you, let me say this...

It is has been hard for me to grasp being one with a cockroach, but alas, it is necessary...

 

Much love.

[ralis]

alwayson -> RongzomFan -> ... -> already ???

 

Given his penchant for extensive quotes/cut/paste, I suspected as much.

[ralis]

 As it is evident from many of your posts, I completely understand why you would respond this way.

 

You are confusing the whole one with Brahma trip with universal individuality. I happen to think for myself and refuse to be a parrot.

Edited January 6, 2016 by ralis

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Jonesboy]

You are confusing the whole one with Brahma trip with universal individuality. I happen to think for myself and refuse to be a parrot.

She is saying she is being, not thinking.

 

A big difference.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[steve]

Your basic understanding of Dzogchen is incomplete and therefore wrong.

Let me correct three important points (see highlighted text below)

 

Tenzin Namdak - Bonpo Dzogchen teachings

page 203

 

For sure my understanding of Dzogchen is incomplete, as is yours.

 

 

From page 196 of Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings:

"Thodgal possesses methods using various sources of light such as sunlight, moonlight, lamplight, crystals, and so on. Then there are methods for gazing into the clear, empty sky and for retreats in total darkness. In all of the cases the Thodgal visions that arise are not perceived by the eye consciousness, but by our own Rigpa. Although sunlight, and so on, represent secondary causes for the arising of the vision, the visions themselves do not arise from some external source; they arise from within us."

 

Look back to #339

From Tenzin Namdak -

"Although visions come through the Kati channel and appear to manifest in front of us, they actually arise from our interior natural light. These visions are not perceived with the normal physical eye. This is inner vision, but it manifests to us as an external vision."

 

I just returned from a retreat on tögel practice with Tenzin Namdak's student, Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche.

We discussed this very topic over 6 days - pointing out the nature of mind, stabilizing it, and exercising it with tögel practice. 

 

Tögel vision is pure vision, when practiced in the natural state, otherwise it is impure vision and thus dependent on conditions. It may arise in the presence of secondary conditions (skygazing, sungazing,...) but is also spontaneously present when unobstructed (hence, the dark retreat). In fact, the intent is to begin to see all appearance as pure vision, in this way dzogchen and tantra are inter-related, I think.

 

The earlier part of your quote seems to be referring to visions that ARE dependent on causes and conditions. The part you didn't emphasize is essential - "We only need to stabilize our Thekchod practice. Then the visions come automatically."

 

You may also want to revisit the 1st lamp which emphasizes the empty aspect of the natural state. That is the most important aspect to experience.

 

At least that's my developing understanding. 

I certainly could be wrong.

Edited January 6, 2016 by steve

[9th]

Mind has no substance;

it is void, less than a smallest atom.

When seer and seen are both eliminated, the View is truly realized.

As for the Practice — in the Stream of Illumination,

no stages can be found.

Perseverance in Practice is confirmed

when actor and acting are both annulled.

In the Realm of Illumination,

where subject and object are one,

I see no cause, for all is void.

When acting and actor disappear,

all actions become correct.

The finite thoughts dissolve in Dharmadhâtu;

the eight worldly winds [loss-gain, pleasure-pain, praise-blame, health-illness] bring neither hope nor fear.

When the precept and the precept-keeper disappear,

the [moral] disciplines are best observed.

By knowing that the Self-mind is Dharmakâya

Buddha’s Body Absolute

deed and doer disappear.

Thus the glorious Dharma triumphs.

In answer to his disciples’ questioning,

this is the happy song the old man sings!

 

 

- Milarepa

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[steve]

Sure.

 

So, how many official guru-student Dzogchen practitioners in the West have realized Rainbow Body so far...?

 

If Chatral Rinpoche didn't do it, I wouldn't worry about that too much...

[Wells]

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Edited January 12, 2016 by Wells

[already]

He changed his name well before you became a member here. Have you been here under another name?

Must i be a member to read old threads and recognise similarities between Zoom dude and Wells dude ?

[Kar3n]

You are confusing the whole one with Brahma trip with universal individuality. 

No sir, no confusion. Brahma is foreign territory, so no trips there.

 

Separating from the me and I, realizing there is no difference in anything or anyone that strives to sustain life has played a role in awareness.

 

I happen to think for myself and refuse to be a parrot.

That is wonderful news; you think for yourself! I do as well, but in this context it is all about being and residing in emptiness which requires no thought or effort.  As for parrots, they are better left in the ecosystem of the rainforests and other tropical settings.

 

Much love

[ralis]

No sir, no confusion. Brahma is foreign territory, so no trips there.

 

Separating from the me and I, realizing there is no difference in anything or anyone that strives to sustain life has played a role in awareness.

 

That is wonderful news; you think for yourself! I do as well, but in this context it is all about being and residing in emptiness which requires no thought or effort.  As for parrots, they are better left in the ecosystem of the rainforests and other tropical settings.

 

Much love

 

One can engage in thought and no thought at the same time. If you had correct instruction from Norbu you would understand that. I guess you have two contexts for your life. One is normal everyday mundane thinking. Lastly, on the weekend you switch into the being mode

 

Much love? This is a public forum so please refrain from sweet and sugary feel good stuff.

Edited January 6, 2016 by ralis

[forestofemptiness]

The Bonpos are the ones putting all this information in the public, but they are also the ones who put warnings on all their practice manuals along the lines of "don't try this yourself" and "you need to connect to an authentic lineage to practice this."

 

Here on the Taobums, people like to obtain and even post restricted materials --- in effect saying listen to what this teacher says about Dzogchen, but don't respect what this teacher says about keeping the teaching materials secret. In other words, we turn to a teaching for guidance and rather than listen and apply the teaching, we pick and choose according to what we already think we know. The issue is that if we are ignorant, how do we have the wisdom to pick and choose?

 

I will bet an obscene amount of money that if anyone bothered to ask Lopon Tenzin Namdak his opinion, he would say you shouldn't learn from books. In fact, most of his materials are restricted. The reason for this, according the Garland of Views, is because people are just going to get it wrong. Connecting with a lineage is no guarantee, but at least it means you're willing to receive feedback from others to make sure you're on the right track. 

[Apech]

One can engage in thought and no thought at the same time. If you had correct instruction from Norbu you would understand that. I guess you have two contexts for your life. One is normal everyday mundane thinking. Lastly, on the weekend you switch into the being mode

 

Much love? This is a public forum so please refrain from sweet and sugary feel good stuff.

 

 

I agree with your first point.  But your last a bit harsh is it not?

[Bindi]

I agree with your first point.  But your last a bit harsh is it not?

 

 

 

Being sarcastic and scoring points, and then ending all warm and sugary, is a passive aggressive trait, and I for one find it disingenuous and manipulative.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is wonderful news; you think for yourself! I do as well, but in this context it is all about being and residing in emptiness which requires no thought or effort.  As for parrots, they are better left in the ecosystem of the rainforests and other tropical settings.

 

Much love

[ralis]

The Bonpos are the ones putting all this information in the public, but they are also the ones who put warnings on all their practice manuals along the lines of "don't try this yourself" and "you need to connect to an authentic lineage to practice this."

 

Here on the Taobums, people like to obtain and even post restricted materials --- in effect saying listen to what this teacher says about Dzogchen, but don't respect what this teacher says about keeping the teaching materials secret. In other words, we turn to a teaching for guidance and rather than listen and apply the teaching, we pick and choose according to what we already think we know. The issue is that if we are ignorant, how do we have the wisdom to pick and choose?

 

I will bet an obscene amount of money that if anyone bothered to ask Lopon Tenzin Namdak his opinion, he would say you shouldn't learn from books. In fact, most of his materials are restricted. The reason for this, according the Garland of Views, is because people are just going to get it wrong. Connecting with a lineage is no guarantee, but at least it means you're willing to receive feedback from others to make sure you're on the right track. 

 

The problem is that very few in this world will ever have a personal relationship with a teacher that allows time for in depth discourse. It is not going to happen unless one is a trust fund baby (I know a few that have). Vows limit most Lama's as to what they can discuss unless of course one conducts a three year retreat.

 

 

The assumption coning from the hierarchy is that all are somehow ignorant. I refuse to accept that.

 

The issue is that if we are ignorant, how do we have the wisdom to pick and choose?

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

edit

Edited January 6, 2016 by ralis

[Kar3n]

One can engage in thought and no thought at the same time. If you had correct instruction from Norbu you would understand that. I guess you have two contexts for your life. One is normal everyday mundane thinking. Lastly, on the weekend you switch into the being mode

 

Much love? This is a public forum so please refrain from sweet and sugary feel good stuff.

 

 

In the context of rigpa, there is no thought. There has been no proclamation made that riga is a constant state of being at this point. So yes, there are periods of thought and no thought. There is work yet to be done. 

 

Yes, much love. Rather than sugary and sweet, think of it as genuine and given freely to you and anyone who reads this. Acceptance is up to the individual.

[ralis]

In the context of rigpa, there is no thought. There has been no proclamation made that riga is a constant state of being at this point. So yes, there are periods of thought and no thought. There is work yet to be done.

 

That is not what Norbu taught me back in 1989. I can still see and hear him discussing this point. Thoughts liberate into their own energy, but that does not mean no thought is the goal. He specifically stated that to have no thought is an error.

 

Perhaps you are confusing Dzogchen with Advaita.

Edited January 6, 2016 by ralis

[ralis]

One thing about Norbu that some may not understand is that he said, that the Dzogchen master that transmits the natural state is always in the natural state by default. Norbu was a professor at the University of Naples for years and is now retired. If he was always in the natural state without fail and was able to carry on his professorial responsibilities, then I rather doubt that he was in a state of permanent no thought.

Edited January 6, 2016 by ralis