Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[Jonesboy]

That is not what Norbu taught me back in 1989. I can still see and hear him discussing this point. Thoughts liberate into their own energy, but that does not mean no thought is the goal. He specifically stated that to have no thought is an error.

 

Perhaps you are confusing Dzogchen with Advaita.

Other Dzogchen teachings say differently as has been posted in this thread.

 

It is entirely possible that you didn't understand what you were being taught. After all you don't believe in transmissions and the retreat was just one lesson after another like you said.

 

Do you have anything from Norbu that you could quote that agrees with your views?

[ralis]

Other Dzogchen teachings say differently as has been posted in this thread.

 

It is entirely possible that you didn't understand what you were being taught. After all you don't believe in transmissions and the retreat was just one lesson after another like you said.

 

Do you have anything from Norbu that you could quote that agrees with your views?

 

I didn't understand and therefor am ignorant in your opinion? On what factual basis are you making this judgement? Were you there in 1989? Actually, I understand more than you could possibly imagine! 

[Kar3n]

That is not what Norbu taught me back in 1989. I can still see and hear him discussing this point. Thoughts liberate into their own energy, but that does not mean no thought is the goal. He specifically stated that to have no thought is an error.

 

Perhaps you are confusing Dzogchen with Advaita.

 

The occasions of being in rigpa took no induction of thought to get to it.  There was no sitting saying, "Hey, going to try to induce rigpa today." When it has happened the mind was quiet. The quietness of the mind and no thought or attachment to thought are what was experienced. There was no need for thought, only to be. There is little doubt that thought is needed in rigpa, especially as a constant state, but attachment to thoughts or thinking would not be rigpa. 

 

The only goal is to help others.

 

Much love.

[wilfred]

seems like the calmness that is present when abiding in the ground of awarness is being misunderstood if its being narrowed down to thought-no thought. you can be in this state and still think about things, if you chose to. it's just the motivations and volition behind these thoughts won't be rearing up from the subconscious mind. we can still use our judgement faculties to get things done in the present, however awakened.

[already]

Zoom ...

do you still combine housework with thogal ?

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/37912-my-first-thodgal-vision/?p=615308

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Apech]

No-thought is a complete dead end.  And I think it was Ralis who said that there is both no-thought and thought simultaneously ... and indeed this is the basis of good practice.

 

In fact the translation of no-thought and no-mind etc. from Zen does not mean absence of mental activity ... or a state in which you don't think ... this is a little misleading I grant but you have to study the topic properly.

[steve]

The problem is that very few in this world will ever have a personal relationship with a teacher that allows time for in depth discourse. 

 

Reasonably little in depth discourse is necessary unless you want to be a geshe.

The Bön methods are highly experiential, at least those of tantra and dzogchen.

[Jonesboy]

seems like the calmness that is present when abiding in the ground of awarness is being misunderstood if its being narrowed down to thought-no thought. you can be in this state and still think about things, if you chose to. it's just the motivations and volition behind these thoughts won't be rearing up from the subconscious mind. we can still use our judgement faculties to get things done in the present, however awakened.

You are right Wilfred. I was not being clear with my no thought posts.

 

Rigpa is not getting lost in them, not attaching to them as they flow through as one is thinking.

 

For example one will have a thought during a conversation, Rigpa is not thinking about what to say or getting lost in the daydream of trying to relate to someone's experience.

 

When one is not having a conversation one can just reside without thoughts, in the flow of that which is.

 

Forgive me for no making that clearer in my previous statements.

[Apech]

Reasonably little in depth discourse is necessary unless you want to be a geshe.

The Bön methods are highly experiential, at least those of tantra and dzogchen.

 

 

I agree - it is perfectly possible to develop a relationship with a teacher in depth an dover time.  I see my Lama once a year and go to occasional teachings.  The relationship is one of slowly developing confidence.  Most of the time I am a rhinoceros and not a parrot (sutra expression for lone practitioner and not in sangha) - it works.

[Apech]

You are right Wilfred. I was not being clear with my no thought posts.

 

Rigpa is not getting lost in them, not attaching to them as they flow through as one is thinking.

 

For example one will have a thought during a conversation, Rigpa is not thinking about what to say or getting lost in the daydream of trying to relate to someone's experience.

 

When one is not having a conversation one can just reside without thoughts, in the flow of that which is.

 

Forgive me for no making that clearer in my previous statements.

 

Where did you receive your Dzogchen teachings from?

[Jonesboy]

I am just sharing my experience .

 

You will notice I don't comment on techniques within Dzogchen. I have no experience with them.

 

All I have ever posted about on this forum is that which I experience. The above post is a perfect example.

 

When I talked about all thoughts arising from the heart. I experienced that first then much later and only because members disagreed with me researched the topic and found that Ramana said the same thing.

 

The same thing with people first saying it was physically impossible for someone to have no thoughts. I know it is possible and shared teaching on it from Dzogchen masters.

 

All the best to you,

 

Tom

[Apech]

I am just sharing my experience .

 

You will notice I don't comment on techniques within Dzogchen. I have no experience with them.

 

All I have ever posted about on this forum is that which I experience. The above post is a perfect example.

 

When I talked about all thoughts arising from the heart. I experienced that first then much later and only because members disagreed with me researched the topic and found that Ramana said the same thing.

 

The same thing with people first saying it was physically impossible for someone to have no thoughts. I know it is possible and shared teaching on it from Dzogchen masters.

 

All the best to you,

 

Tom

 

 

I'm just curious why you use terms like Rigpa and so on when you are neither a Buddhist or Bon practitioner - especially when you tell people what is and what is not rigpa.  

[Jonesboy]

Does one have to be a Buddhist to understand it?

 

The Buddha wasn't a Buddhist after all

Edited January 6, 2016 by Jonesboy

[Apech]

Does one have to be a Buddhist to understand it?

 

The Buddha wasn't a Buddhist after all

 

 

Oh please, of all the answers - not that one

[ralis]

I am just sharing my experience .

 

You will notice I don't comment on techniques within Dzogchen. I have no experience with them.

 

All I have ever posted about on this forum is that which I experience. The above post is a perfect example.

 

When I talked about all thoughts arising from the heart. I experienced that first then much later and only because members disagreed with me researched the topic and found that Ramana said the same thing.

 

The same thing with people first saying it was physically impossible for someone to have no thoughts. I know it is possible and shared teaching on it from Dzogchen masters.

 

All the best to you,

 

Tom

 

Again may I remind you that the discussion is in regards to Dzogchen and not Advaita.

[ralis]

Other Dzogchen teachings say differently as has been posted in this thread.

 

It is entirely possible that you didn't understand what you were being taught. After all you don't believe in transmissions and the retreat was just one lesson after another like you said.

 

Do you have anything from Norbu that you could quote that agrees with your views?

 

Obviously you have not taken any Dzogchen teachings and have no right to critique the OP.

Edited January 7, 2016 by ralis

[Jonesboy]

I jumped into the conversation because you were saying mindfulness was Rigpa.

 

From your previous comments you only believe what you want to believe from your teachers.

 

Go to Dhramawheel and start on how transmissions are fake and your idea of what Rigpa is.

 

You would not last long over there I assure you.

 

One does not need a Dzogchen teacher to understand emptiness, oneness or Rigpa.

 

When you know you know and you know when others don't.

 

All the best.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Jonesboy

[ralis]

I jumped into the conversation because you were saying mindfulness was Rigpa.

 

From your previous comments you only believe what you want to believe from your teachers.

 

Go to Dhramawheel and start on how transmissions are fake and your idea of what Rigpa is.

 

You would not last long over there I assure you.

 

One does not need a Dzogchen teacher to understand emptiness, oneness or Rigpa.

 

When you know you know and you know when others don't.

 

All the best.

 

Never once did I state anything regarding mindfulness. Pointing out is different from what one believes is a transmission. A Dzogchen teacher points out.

[Apech]

...

 

One does not need a Dzogchen teacher to understand emptiness, oneness or Rigpa.

 

When you know you know and you know when others don't.

 

All the best.

 

Well there we have it.

[Jonesboy]

If you go all the way back to page 7.

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/40023-dzogchen-superior-to-tantra-really/page-7

 

Wells actually was saying the Witness was the same as Rigpa and I said no it is not and you started to jump in arguing the point. One would assume you were agreeing with him since you kept telling me I was wrong.

 

A transmission is something that one can feel. Can you not feel them in books by teachers? When I had a Mahamudra transmission I had dreams of learning for 3 days afterward and experienced some pretty cool states during my sits.

 

When you open yourself up it is pretty amazing what one can experience.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Jonesboy

[ralis]

If you go all the way back to page 7.

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/40023-dzogchen-superior-to-tantra-really/page-7

 

Wells actually was saying the Witness was the same as Rigpa and I said no it is not and you started to jump in arguing the point. One would assume you were agreeing with him since you kept telling me I was wrong.

 

A transmission is something that one can feel. Can you not feel them in books by teachers? When I had a Mahamudra transmission I had dreams of learning for 3 days afterward and experienced some pretty cool states during my sits.

 

When you open yourself up it is pretty amazing what one can experience.

 

You feel I know nothing? There are many of my posts on that page and I stated that one can witness and still be in the natural state.

 

To repeat, the OP is in regards to Dzogchen, not Mahamudra. There are differences between the two.  The pointing out instructions in Dzogchen have nothing to do with receiving a 'big vibe'.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

 

A transmission is something that one can feel. Can you not feel them in books by teachers? When I had a Mahamudra transmission I had dreams of learning for 3 days afterward and experienced some pretty cool states during my sits.

 

...

 

 

From whom did you receive a Mahamudra transmission? A recognized lineage? What were the preliminaries?