What is the best martial arts?

[rain]

u probably have a best tooth also.

[Bum Grasshopper]

Because the vast majority of the "artists" who enter the octagan haven't appropriately learned their art to begin with.

 

 

Sure would be great to see one of these "masters" demonstrate their art against someone who is really trying to do some damage while keeping from getting hurt themselves. Since the popularity of no holds barred competition, the only "master" that has been willing to do so using only their respected art was Royce Gracie.

 

Even Bruce Lee got his ass beat when he put too much faith in Wing Chung. I'm not saying these arts don't have their merit, they also have their shortcomings that a sensible Taoist must realize.

 

In my opinion, the best MA is consistently changing like the flux of yin and yang. If there was one that was any better than the others, we would all be learning that style. Until another style exploits it's weaknesses.

 

look at BJJ. Everyone thought it was the best. Now we know it's weakness and can defeat a BJJ artist who is not proficient at other arts as well.

Edited December 9, 2008 by Bum Grasshopper

[Starjumper]

Referring to Yueng Chuan:

 

Yeah i see what you mean by the systema method i didnt get to see them all is there any full out sparring with gloves on clips?

 

There's never any sparring and never any gloves. The puncher gets ONE chance to punch, ONE only, and they NEVER connect, then they go DOWN. If they never connect then there is no need for gloves. In fact the puncher is usually already going down at about the time their punch is suppsed to land. Please refer back to the videos to look for this aspect. Systema is the same way, the puncher never connects, ideally, of course. I suspect you've seen enough of the real internal arts to have seen this 'never connect' stuff, it's how real tai chi is supposed to work too. I've seen some of the fastest punchers in the West try to hit Dave, he just stands there calmly with his hands in front of his belly, and the results are the puncher gets his ass handed to him 6000 different ways!

 

In our opinion sparring is like learning to do it wrong so there is never sparring. However, if by sparring you mean the high speed methods, all I can say is that the faster the puncher punches, the better it works. I think the only way you will see high speed stuff that is similar might be by looking at Russian Systema.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bJ1_0EIDpk

 

 

 

http://www.wuji.com/Harris%20Sensei/tribute.htm

 

 

 

Anyway, seriously here, there is no best art. It depends on the artist, BUT some arts can take the best artists a lot farthur than others. Yueng Chuan and Systema are two of the best, as far as depth goes, and that's because the use the same rules as the other taoist internal arts, Tai Chi, Pa Kua, and Shing Yi. That is all.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Taiji Bum]

Starjumper, who are these guys who say they have instructed Army Special Forces and Navy SEALS? I was at Ft Bragg stationed at the Special Forces Command Headquarters for many years and not once was an outside instructer allowed in, not once.

[Starjumper]

Secret Service and Seals came to Dave's seminars, which were held for them, closed doors. I don't know if they came on their own time or were payed to come. Another master I know, a Shaolin grandmaster, teaches CIA the killing arts and some very spooky psychic abilities. He doesn't go to them, they come here.

[Spirit Ape]

Starjumper,

 

No disrespect my brother but doing that training is more about sensitivty and not true fighting they are striking from distance outside of range and the person has way too much time to adjust and use there skills. One strike also is not good enough for my books as usually no decent fighter will over extend there strikes and will follow up as fast as the punch is leaving.

 

The clips of the systema type i also teach as part of loosening up and letting go of fear as we use knife and what not to get the body to move better but when it comes to fist fighting complete different ball game IMHO.

 

Like i said no disrespect mate, ive fought alot full contact and also grappling and teach it and i think i do have a idea in some of this stuff. Its a good way to understand movement but close range fighting i think its alittle different especially against a skilled fighter that continously strikes with all body parts.

 

Hope you dont take this the wrong way!?

 

Ape

[Starjumper]

Ya ... I have just started training systema. Kinda humbling to have my arse handed to me in 6000 different ways.

 

Systema Demo

 

Systema Serbia - June 2007 seminar highlights

 

 

Congratulations Stig. It's pretty mind blowing stuff, isn't it? ... and fun to!

 

Here's some more Systema videos, for those of you who want to see what the best looks like. Yueng Chuan is basically the same. Both very internal and both came from the Tien Shan mountains. One went west and became Russian, via the Cossacks and the other went East and ended up in Seattle via my teacher, who was also Bruce Lee's main teacher, but Bruce didn't learn the these internal things because they don't look good in the movies. There are a few times when Systema uses blocks, which are a hard style, and Yueng Chuan doesn't have these because a hard block gives you 'away'.

 

Systema:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCRGK1NJfl4

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...stema&hl=en

 

Starjumper,

 

No disrespect my brother but doing that training is more about sensitivty and not true fighting they are striking from distance outside of range and the person has way too much time to adjust and use there skills. One strike also is not good enough for my books as usually no decent fighter will over extend there strikes and will follow up as fast as the punch is leaving.

 

The clips of the systema type i also teach as part of loosening up and letting go of fear as we use knife and what not to get the body to move better but when it comes to fist fighting complete different ball game IMHO.

 

Like i said no disrespect mate, ive fought alot full contact and also grappling and teach it and i think i do have a idea in some of this stuff. Its a good way to understand movement but close range fighting i think its alittle different especially against a skilled fighter that continously strikes with all body parts.

 

Hope you dont take this the wrong way!?

 

Ape

 

Not at all, I'm an amateur at this stuff and can only report what I've seen and had done to me. I know you have much more experience than I do. We also do some close in stuff, tai chi is good training for close in work, and multiple high speed strikes are also dealt with. In fact if you notice in the videos, a lot of the techniques end up being done in a very close in manner, and so if the attacker is already close it just saves time, I think

 

Normally the technique which deals with the first strike will throw the second strike off and/or set up for it. A lot of times the technique which deals with the first strike is used as a decoy to trick the second strike into a predetermined path, which is already prepared for.

 

Also, keep in mind that these arts are really for the battlefields and back alleys, not for the ring. The ring always has rules to keep the killing arts away.

 

BTW: the Tien Shan kung fu system from Taiwan has not connection to or similarity to these arts or to my chi kung, all of which originated in the Tien Shan mountains.

 

More =) Ape, concerning your comments about multiple high speed strikes, all I can say is that experts in these methods have gone against my teacher and the results were the ass handing 6000 ways thing. They can do a one/two, but the one/two punch is all they get to try.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Sloppy Zhang]

Sure would be great to see one of these "masters" demonstrate their art against someone who is really trying to do some damage while keeping from getting hurt themselves. Since the popularity of no holds barred competition, the only "master" that has been willing to do so using only their respected art was Royce Gracie.

 

Even Bruce Lee got his ass beat when he put too much faith in Wing Chung. I'm not saying these arts don't have their merit, they also have their shortcomings that a sensible Taoist must realize.

 

In my opinion, the best MA is consistently changing like the flux of yin and yang. If there was one that was any better than the others, we would all be learning that style. Until another style exploits it's weaknesses.

 

look at BJJ. Everyone thought it was the best. Now we know it's weakness and can defeat a BJJ artist who is not proficient at other arts as well.

 

I really don't think it has to do with style.

 

Royce Gracie succeeded because he was a good individual. He used his style, his skill, and his experience to do the techniques that worked best for him and he was able to consistently with.

 

A lot of people saw that success and hopped on the BJJ bandwagon, then BJJ guys started to lose. Was it because of BJJ's inherent weaknesses? Well giving a cursory look at the style, it does appear to have some weaknesses... does this just mean that no one knew how to exploit Royce's weaknesses until just now?

 

I don't think so.

 

A good fighter knows how to change and adapt, how to minimize their weaknesses and maximize their strengths. A good fighter can come from most any style (assuming that style is, say, relatively complete, as in it teaches all different types of fighting or at least addresses how to defend in situations). The problem is that when people see a good fighter they don't see the fighter, they see the LABEL "oh he's BJJ" "oh he's MT" "oh he's collegiate wrestling"

 

It's not about the style. I think that an increase in BJJ loss PROVES it's not the style. Royce Gracie was BJJ and he won a lot, even against wrestlers. Now all these other guys are BJJ and they don't win a lot. Well both are BJJ so we can eliminate BJJ from the list of potential reasons for success/failure.

 

I mean look at a guy like Toshitsugu Takamatsu. Sure, not everyone likes the Bujinkan, and everybody is all like, "oh well there's no video evidence just stories blah blah blah", but I mean really let's grow up and not be so petty. He was successful but did not come from the "mainstream good arts" you see today. Then look at Mas Oyama.

 

Heck, as long as we're talking about it, let's look at Lyoto Machida. I have to say he's my favorite fighter, he strikes where he can, pulls back where there's not an open shot. Everyone likes to call him a coward and whatnot, but it's about fighting smart. All of the fighters I've listed had great records but they all come from different styles. You have hundreds or thousands of people from the same style that do NOT reach that level of fame and success in fighting.

 

So it's not the style. It's not about the "best MA fluxing with yin and yang", it's about the best INDIVIDUAL fighter understanding certain unchanging principles, such as yin and yang. Even in a fight you can see it. Look at Lyoto Machida again, at once attacking, at once retreating, heck that's even starting to sound like Taijiquan. But that's also from Art of War, that's also from the Book of Five Rings, even Bruce Lee talks about this stuff. All of the serious martial arts (like I said in my earlier post, the ones really meant for REAL fighting) talk about fighting principles. Those principles DO NOT CHANGE. They are like Yin and Yang, the names change but what they are do not. It's so much more than the whole Yin/Yang dynamic, but you get the point.

[Trash Filter]

I think it depends on the purpose, this is important.

 

Most people do martial arts for sporting purpose, rather then self defense purpose. The two have significant differences.

[mianguo]

it depends a lot about those who practice martial arts.

 

If someone practice just for sports and fun I could think they aren't able to become so good martial artists as those who practice martial arts for self-defence purposes because most likely they don't practice so strictly (more likely they are to skip lessons, because they aren't so interested in mastering the techniques).

 

I myself practice a Korean martial art called Hoi Jeon Moo Sool. Really enjoy it. I do practice it for self-defence purposes. And I'm not going to tell it's the best martial art because there ain't no BEST martial art. The differences just are in those who practice martial arts.

[Smile]

For life or death situations - Target Focus Training.

For street fighting - The Keysi Fighting Method

[Guest sykkelpump]

For life or death situations - Target Focus Training.

For street fighting - The Keysi Fighting Method

 

I train keysi,it is made for street fighting.but I am not sure how effective it is.Your guard is to high and leaves body and legs to easy targets.The moves are also a little unatural and doesent generate enough power.But we train with many opponents and in real settings and with no rules.thats good.I think the best is using mma fighting and add no rules to it.That is the best fighting method imo

[ghost dancer]

There is no correct answer to this. If you want to learn a few moves quickly use Krav Maga, for the external arts Hung Gar is effective, Shaolin also but it takes a long while to learn, Wing chun can be learnt quickly.Military arts Systema is excellent , other esoteric arts-Indonesian is very deadly. Jnternal: again they take longer to learn but you are able to use them later in life. I specialise in Hsing yi which I can still use as a senior. Then of course there are the weapon arts where I would recommend the Phillippine Kali

[Mal]

[Vajrasattva]

Good Pencak Silat or Kuntau, or Ninpo, or Internal MA (Bagua, Tai Chi, Xing Yi).

[Spirit Ape]

White Eyebrow and Internal Kung fu

[minkus]

Look at Lyoto Machida again, at once attacking, at once retreating, heck that's even starting to sound like Taijiquan. But that's also from Art of War, that's also from the Book of Five Rings, even Bruce Lee talks about this stuff. All of the serious martial arts (like I said in my earlier post, the ones really meant for REAL fighting) talk about fighting principles. Those principles DO NOT CHANGE. They are like Yin and Yang, the names change but what they are do not. It's so much more than the whole Yin/Yang dynamic, but you get the point.

 

Yep, principles !

 

Art of war is a great book btw

[Trash Filter]

If the self defence school is a good one, then they will drill you to attack lethal targets from neutral positions. This is an advanage of the way sporting people train...However, sporting people often train far harder due to their preparations for their next fight.

 

Unless You can really inspire yourself in self defence, you cannot easily match the amount of effort that some sportsmen train of 6-8 hours per day.

[Mal]

White Eyebrow

 

Cool, don't know anyone who does that. I'm told it's pretty much the same as Tong Long. What do you think?

 

And like Tong Long isn't there internal stuff as part of it's system (chi gungs etc)

[Baguakid]

Cool, don't know anyone who does that. I'm told it's pretty much the same as Tong Long. What do you think?

 

And like Tong Long isn't there internal stuff as part of it's system (chi gungs etc)

 

Northern Mantis or Southern Mantis? It depends on the mantis style as to how internal it is.

[Sloppy Zhang]

If the self defence school is a good one, then they will drill you to attack lethal targets from neutral positions. This is an advanage of the way sporting people train...However, sporting people often train far harder due to their preparations for their next fight.

 

Unless You can really inspire yourself in self defence, you cannot easily match the amount of effort that some sportsmen train of 6-8 hours per day.

 

Yeah, training your body is really overlooked in a lot of self defense stuff.

 

Sure you can know a few techniques, but have you got them drilled into your memory? Will you have the stamina to use them? Maybe you get attacked right as you get out of the gym or something, are you going to be fit enough to go one more round? Maybe you have an encounter as you are trying to carry groceries into your apartment, will you be able to react appropriately? Maybe things won't go as planned and you have to wrestle him around a bit, are you strong enough to handle that?

 

So I'm with the sports guys on this one, you gotta maintain your shape and factor that into your training.

[Mal]

[Spirit Ape]

Hakka Mantis (SPM) should have internal (soft and Hard Qi Kung) for instance your opening with tension is hard qi kung. But Ip Siu also did meditation and i think some soft work to balance it all out!

 

Bak Mei also has soft and Hard Qi Kung, My Bak Mei has Min Fa Gung (Cotton Body skills) not the same as Iron Body. Bak Mei wasnt really Hakka untill CLC the guy to spread it made it Hakka as he was Hakka. But originally Bak Mei Pai comes from Ngnor Mei (Omei) Shan and is Daoist system mixed with Shamanic and Nomadic arts from the tribes in the mountain ranges.

 

Spirit Ape

[Mal]

also did meditation and i think some soft work to balance it all out!

 

Yes, it had some chigungs for golden bell, but my Sifu also has us doing Tai Chi to balance it out. Something his Sifu recomended. A lot of my Sihing's do meditation also.

[Spirit Ape]

Ive seen pics of Ip Sui doing full lotus and doing eye training (3rd eye) this is what i was refering to. Maybe there is more internal stuff inside the Chow Gar ill ask my friend that teachers here he also is into jooklum from hongkong.

 

Ape