Trunk

LDT method: hui yin <-> navel

Recommended Posts

I'd like to extract & discuss this one part of method: developing the lower dan tien by repeatedly connecting hui yin up to the navel level (towards the center is how I interpret it), back and forth, fostering that connection, interaction.  This is mentioned commonly in the yt videos (ex,

), seems a simple and major key, but if that part of the practice (people's experience with it) has been discussed much here I've missed it.

 

- Trunk

 

p.s.

Please don't devolve this into some mo pai argument.  And if it does become that, then I'd welcome moderators acting quickly and decisively, either towards specific posts or - if need be - pitting and locking the thread.  If we could stay to method and personal experience, :) .

Edited by Trunk
  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re:

-----

"I'd like to extract & discuss this one part of method: developing the lower dan tien by repeatedly connecting hui yin up to the navel level (towards the center is how I interpret it), back and forth, fostering that connection, interaction."

-----

 

In the video the guy is making a very general comment about this, probably because the details would take too long for the video and would not actually be very informative for a general audience.

 

Going further would assume the audience is trying to learn this rather than learn about it or learn of it.

 

I would think just about any traditional Qigong or Gongfu school would be able to teach about LDT and qi cultivation - is there no school of this type near you? The idea discussed in the video is very basic, a generality, but the details are also quite common.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

when he does the thing with the mans hand, is he inbreath or outbreath?

 

also facial expressions would give additional hints

Edited by allinone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is the Hui yin point what is commonly referred to as the perineum (between anus and genitals) in English?  If not what is the more accurrate spot for it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is the Hui yin point what is commonly referred to as the perineum (between anus and genitals) in English?  If not what is the more accurrate spot for it?

 

Ren-1 hui yin is the spot half way between anus and genitals.  The opposite is Du-20 bai hui, which is at the top middle of the head.  Run a line straight between them and that's the central channel (sushumna), at least the section between those points (also goes above the head and below the torso).  Ren-8 shenque is the umbilicus, but we are talking about the point in the center, halfway between the umbilicus and Du-4 ming men. 

 

So, the exercise (as I've understood it and have been working with it, happily) is to work with a section of the central channel, from hui yin to the level of the umbilicus, back and forth.  As those polarities engage and integrate, triggers further integration.  :)

 

p.s.

Note that the most major physical landmarks of lower torso are on either side of those two center points:

- genitals and sacrum

- umbilicus and ming men (twixt the kidneys)

Edited by Trunk
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re:

-----

"So, the exercise (as I've understood it and have been working with it, happily) is to work with a section of the central channel, from hui yin to the level of the umbilicus, back and forth.  As those polarities engage and integrate, triggers further integration."

-----

 

Sorry - I am confused - what "exercise" are we discussing?

 

The guy in video was just making a general comment about what he is doing to some filmmakers, yes?

 

His comment is about charging and discharge, but not about cultivation - he is just trying to briefly explain how he is projecting qi and doesn't discuss how he cultivated what is discharging.

 

Are people interested in doing this kind of qi projection? It is not uncommon even in many schools mainly considered as martial art gongfu schools.

 

Or, is this about something else that I am not understanding in these posts?

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember Michael Winn had a version of an orbit that just went from the yin-hui point to the dan tien.  As I recall he used the colors red and white, kind of a liquidy mix circulating.  Red for blood, white for..I forget (semen?).   Just doing a miniature orbit.

 

Personally I think you need to begin with concentration on one point at a time, breathing into it, developing 'feel' for it, spending significant time, before moving on to circulation. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would think that anyone who has done the MCO w/ synchronized huiyin movement to the LDT was developing a similar connection... knowingly or not.

 

There was a time when I was doing that quite a bit and I put most of my focus on that synchronization...  I believe that kick-started a temporary kundalini (at the time I didn't know what to call it); and since then, my energetic awareness of my huiyin is rather strong.  

 

But I will say that I didn't really think so much about the exact connection as related here.  I saw them as parts of a whole doing their part.   It would be interesting to take it in the direction as the video suggests:  Huiyin (negative) connection to the LDT (positive).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry - I am confused - what "exercise" are we discussing?

 

First of all, what I've been doing is inspired by his (John Chang's) breif description. A number of simple ways to go about it:

- simply focus your attention (yi) on hui yin, slowly move yi up to level of navel, slowly back down. Repeat.

- could make the focus of yi a 'pearl' (empty and luminous) and repeat the same exercise with the pearl. could also spin the pearl.

- could combine either of the above with breathing. I find it natural to do the up movement on the exhale, down on inhale.

 

These are just simple variations, based on common tools (breath, yi, pearl) that show up over and over in the internal arts.

 

enzo-18txt-s50.jpg

(edit 4/24 to add image)

 

The guy in video was just making a general comment about what he is doing to some filmmakers, yes?

 

His comment is about charging and discharge, but not about cultivation ...

 

That's not how I see / interpret it. The way he gestured while saying "meditation every day" seemed to me that he was working on that basic process regularly. Generally, what gets expressed in outward demonstrations is a product, and a small fraction, of internal cultivation.

 

The aspects of esoteric anatomy engaged:

- potent points along the central channel

- adjacent front/back points of genitals/sacrum, navel/mingmen .. which ime begin to get very engaged after a while as hui yin & navel level gradually integrate more powerfully...

 

Those aspects of anatomy are very very commonly cultivated in the Taoist internal arts. (Navel ~ mingmen integration is part of embryonic breathing, for instance.) This seemed to me (and it's holding up as a matter of experimentation and experience) a very succinct way to bring those parts together.

 

Personally I think you need to begin with concentration on one point at a time, breathing into it, developing 'feel' for it, spending significant time, before moving on to circulation.

 

I saw them as parts of a whole doing their part.

 

Both correct.  Often step by step then things integrate to a more fluent whole.  If you're lucky enough to just be put together well in the first place then you're ahead of the game.  :)

 

I find that engaging opposites (the + & -) back and forth (often in relation to a neutral center) tends to be a concise way of integrating a polarity, two points, activating and strengthening both in a simple gesture.

Edited by Trunk
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven´t specifically worked the lower part of the central channel in this way but it strikes me as a really great idea.  There´s this general push people often have to go up too far too fast.  To concentrate on the third eye etc.  And I´m sure there´s a time and appropriate place for all that, but seems to me this lower area is potent and, all too often, neglected.

 

Liminal

Edited by liminal_luke
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to extract & discuss this one part of method: developing the lower dan tien by repeatedly connecting hui yin up to the navel level (towards the center is how I interpret it), back and forth, fostering that connection, interaction. 

 

I think the challenge for most of us is in limiting the movement specifically to this area, and not going higher. It's not simple.

 

It's eaiser to rise up to the diaphragm and back down to huiyin.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just throwing this out there...how about integrating this portion of the central channel with the MCO at this level.  Starting at hui yin split the pearl into two.  Both pearls go up, one following the front portion of the MCO to the navel, the other following the back portion of the MCO to ming men.  At that point the pearls travel inward until they merge in the center and go down the center to arrive again at hui yin where they split and follow the circuit once again.

 

Liminal

Edited by liminal_luke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just throwing this out there...how about integrating this portion of the central channel with the MCO at this level.  Starting at hui yin split the pearl into two.  ..

 

My experience is that as the two central points increase in power, magnetism, that they then spontaneously draw the distal (front/back) points into the mix.  Some version of the "little orbit" gets created spontaneously as a natural progression; you don't have to deliberately do anything extra.

 

... but hey, if you are drawn to it, experiment away.  :)

People vary.  What's right for me... etc.  ;)

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re:

-----

"First of all, what I've been doing is inspired by his (John Chang's) breif description."

-----

 

I understand now. I just hadn't seen any reference to an "exercise" in the OP and didn't see one in the video, and unaware video inspired such a thing.

 

-----

"The way he gestured while saying "meditation every day" seemed to me that he was working on that basic process regularly. Generally, what gets expressed in outward demonstrations is a product, and a small fraction, of internal cultivation."

-----

 

"Meditation" doesn't need refer to his description of the qi charge/discharge LDT process. In fact, what he says about LDT/perineum usually has very little to do with what most call meditation. Unless stuff like martial-arts type qigong is "meditation".

 

Am I correct in assumtion that the reason for this examination of what he says in the video is that people would like to do the same things he demonstrates in discharge qi?

 

So, when he shows sending charge to others, making spark from his hand - the real thing is to know how he does these things and do them?

 

In any event, I will add that I am enjoying the discussion of this exercise, and central channel, LDT, etc.

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wondered about his comment there - the perineum is where you take in "yin chi" from the environment. The lower tan tien is where you bring down and build up "yang qi."

 

The details of this technique and the connection to the MCO is explained in the Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality book.

 

So the "heart's fire" is the yin spirit energy referred to in the video - but it's connected to "yin qi" - the fire is the yin qi of the heart that descends as part of the small universe - by descending it turns the yin jing into more yin qi of the perineum - aka the "cavity of vitality" which is actually below the lower tan tien.

 

So then that "cavity of vitality" gets ionized and sublimated - through Emptiness meditation which is really the "immutable thought" of the pineal gland - emptying out the monkey mind, and so the Cavity of PreNatal Vitality is creating more "yang qi" then - which then increases the spirit - the yin spirit of the heart - as light energy. So that is the descent of the yang qi which then turns the yin qi of the perineum into more yang qi.

 

That's the basic cycle of the small universe - if you read Taoist Yoga it describes how when the real MCO opens up as a kundalini awakening - what that means is that the yang qi descends down the front channel from the lower tan tien - so that it feels like it will be lost out as ejaculation - but in fact then it goes into the governing channel after being increased from merging with all the yin qi in the cavity of vitality - converting the jing into more qi - and then goes up the spine to open up the pineal gland as the Cavity of Original Spirit, the Tai Chi.

 

So you notice in the video - the narrator translates John Chang conflating "yin qi" with "yin spirit" - and this is why - because of that small universe connection of the two through the heart's fire and how that actually is part of the cycle with the yang qi from the pineal gland through meditation - the descent of the yang qi - and how it then merges with the jing energy which he calls yin qi.

 

But also we can assume the main source of yin qi is John Chang taking it in from the earth by meditating on the ground - or as people said he actually used a grounding wire when he is in his house - so he takes the Earth's yin qi energy very seriously. That would be a purer and stronger source of yin qi energy - than other sources.

 

As far as the exercise - I would say to build up the lower tan tien energy then the Quick Fire method is the best which is the horse stance with thighs horizontal to the ground to activate strong deep fast breathing - and so this raises up the jing energy to the lower tan tien and above so it is purified into qi energy.

Edited by Innersoundqigong
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wondered about his comment there - the perineum is where you take in "yin chi" from the environment. The lower tan tien is where you bring down and build up "yang qi."

 

The details of this technique and the connection to the MCO is explained in the Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality book.

 

So the "heart's fire" is the yin spirit energy referred to in the video - but it's connected to "yin qi" - the fire is the yin qi of the heart that descends as part of the small universe - by descending it turns the yin jing into more yin qi of the perineum - aka the "cavity of vitality" which is actually below the lower tan tien.

 

So then that "cavity of vitality" gets ionized and sublimated - through Emptiness meditation which is really the "immutable thought" of the pineal gland - emptying out the monkey mind, and so the Cavity of PreNatal Vitality is creating more "yang qi" then - which then increases the spirit - the yin spirit of the heart - as light energy. So that is the descent of the yang qi which then turns the yin qi of the perineum into more yang qi.

 

That's the basic cycle of the small universe - if you read Taoist Yoga it describes how when the real MCO opens up as a kundalini awakening - what that means is that the yang qi descends down the front channel from the lower tan tien - so that it feels like it will be lost out as ejaculation - but in fact then it goes into the governing channel after being increased from merging with all the yin qi in the cavity of vitality - converting the jing into more qi - and then goes up the spine to open up the pineal gland as the Cavity of Original Spirit, the Tai Chi.

 

So you notice in the video - the narrator translates John Chang conflating "yin qi" with "yin spirit" - and this is why - because of that small universe connection of the two through the heart's fire and how that actually is part of the cycle with the yang qi from the pineal gland through meditation - the descent of the yang qi - and how it then merges with the jing energy which he calls yin qi.

 

But also we can assume the main source of yin qi is John Chang taking it in from the earth by meditating on the ground - or as people said he actually used a grounding wire when he is in his house - so he takes the Earth's yin qi energy very seriously. That would be a purer and stronger source of yin qi energy - than other sources.

 

As far as the exercise - I would say to build up the lower tan tien energy then the Quick Fire method is the best which is the horse stance with thighs horizontal to the ground to activate strong deep fast breathing - and so this raises up the jing energy to the lower tan tien and above so it is purified into qi energy.

 

When you say -Quick Fire Method- Can you be more detailed in what that entails? From what I gather you are speaking of horse stance along with a form of bellows breathing.

 

Bellows breathing pumps the Hui Yin....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both yang and yin flow within the body. One enters from the baihui point, one from the hui yin.

The heart ☲ is the postnatal yang.  The yang's yang is the prenatal yin hidden within postnatal, the true yin. This is the one that enters the body via hui yin.

The kidneys ☵ are the postnatal yin. The yin's yang is the prenatal yang hidden within postnatal, the true yang. This is the one that enters the body via bai hui.

The body needs both those energies to live and both are harnessed automatically via the interaction between the kidneys and heart. The type of interaction determines whether one gathers yin qi or yang qi.

 

So by "yang's yang" = "prenatal yin"  you mean the "yuan shen"? And then the "postnatal, true yin" is the "yin qi." So that is the heart's fire as yin qi and heart as yuan shen or prenatal spirit.

 

So then the kidneys are yin qi, that is with meditation converting the yin jing into yang jing (yin qi) and then the "prenatal yang" is the yuan qi.

 

To be specific as detailed in Taoist Yoga book - the yuan qi originates from the heart also - the yuan shen and yuan qi originate unified from the heart but then split at birth and so then the heart yuan qi is activated by the pineal gland - the "Cavity of Prenatal Qi."

 

The Cavity of Prenatal Qi at first does not contain the "wondrous light" of the third eye (the Cavity of Original Spirit) and so with any evil thoughts from heart's fire (yin qi) attracted to "forms of love" through the twinkle of the eyes - this causes the pineal gland to shoot qi down the spine to activate the "sea of chi" - actually the stored up yin jing energy that is then turned into fluid for reproduction.

 

So the Quick Fire breathing is yeah to activate the alchemical bellows - deep fast breathing.

 

For example in Taoist Yoga the student says he is doing the small universe MCO but he keeps having nocturnal emissions - why? The teacher says it is b/c he is just using his mind for meditation as the MCO and he is not doing the Quick Fire deep breathing with the MCO - as only the deep breathing has the power to drive up the yin jing energy to convert it to yin qi energy.

 

So first you have deep breathing as Quick Fire which converts the yin jing into yin qi.

 

Then you have descent of heart's fire (spirit yin qi) which converts the yin jing into more yin qi.  Those two work together.

 

By the breathing driving the yin jing up above the fire of the heart which descends down - then you create more yang qi.

 

Yang qi is created only by the Emptiness focus of the pineal gland - the mind concentrated on "immutable thought" - a mantra or logical inference of the source of the I-thought or visualization of fire light, etc.

 

So that prenatal qi of the pineal gland then increases the spirit light of the heart.

 

That is how the energy cycles.

 

Alchemically the shen-qi-jing are combined so when you take in yin qi through the pernineum you also take in yin shen too.

 

For example from my over 7 years of wrong tantra practice I took in a lot of lustful yin qi and yin shen energy from having mutual climaxes with females.  I also lost a lot of my prenatal yuan qi.

 

So then the qigong master was healing me when we were in the car and I was driving and I felt this very strong electromagnetic qi all through my nether region. He just commented to himself, "interesting." I didn't want to disturb him nor really know since obviously it was a bit embarrassing situation and I figured he should just keep doing the healing. I just tried to ignore it but when he was done I said I felt, "lighter" because I really did. I felt cleaned out.

 

So then about half a year later - just a few weeks ago - i asked the qigong master what he had picked up when he said, "interesting." He said, "All the women."

 

So the point is that type of tantra - only Taoist Yoga explains specifically why it is wrong -  it says "bad air" goes into the body.

 

Whereas taking in "yin qi" from the Earth is what is called the Earthing or Grounding practice - like people walking barefoot say they experience an internal tingling. Scientifically that is the electromagnetic energy of the Earth from the Schumann resonance and it neutralizes free radicals in the body - so if you feel the tingling that is the neutralization process. I get this same internal tingling if I eat any sugar since sugar creates free radicals and so my qi energy  - my "yin qi" energy is neutralizing it.

 

So the idea is you have to fill up the lower tan tien with yin qi energy first but only through the Emptiness meditation will it then convert to yang qi or vice versa - the prenatal yuan qi will build up the heart's spirit energy which will convert the yin qi into yang qi.

 

This is also why the left hand is yuan shen - the dragon prenatal spirit and yin qi heart fire and the right hand is the tiger yuan qi the prenatal qi and yang qi.

 

My understanding is that whether the left hand or right hand is used it changes the push/pull effect of the yin qi or yang qi.

 

The other thing for facial expression - is tongue against the roof of the mouth and you can roll the eyes since the left eye is the prenatal yuan shen and the right eye is the prenatal yuan qi. So by rolling the eyes you then put the fire energy below the water energy since the two eyes are the only connection to the original heart energy with the unified yuan qi and yuan shen.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re:

-----

"This is also why the spiritual masters - by looking into someone's eyes - they can see a person's past lives."

-----

 

Actually, you can see whole family history in structure of eyes. Person's right eye is showing mother's side, left eye is showing father's.

 

On either side of iris, inner part near nose is showing grandmother, outer part is showing grandfather.

 

If part is expanded, that person's constitution was weaker. If contracted, constitution was strong.

 

Other features in these areas can show congenital conditions passed through generations to offspring - black or red dot, yellowing, various structure changes, etc.

 

I just pass this along as more info about seeing past life and living - not all is "spirit" seeing, and much is there to see physically that people have forgotten now.

 

Whole body is like an encyclopedia showing just visually very much about past living, and even trajectory of future.

 

-VonKrankenhaus

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds similar to a method I was taught to 'find' the location of the LDT. Once you lower your gravity to the LDT level, you trace your awareness from the perineum upwards until you feel a subtle pull or push.

 

I'm not sure to what end you'd be moving qi there as a practice, though. In general using your mind to directly move energy in the central channel is at best a waste of time and at worst a recipe for disaster imo - especially if you're limiting it to that small part of the channel. This is, of course based on my level of experience and development. I guess if you've cleared your channels and heart-mind, then it's fine - although in that case you'd probably be consulting the wisdom of your energy body, not the wisdom of an internet forum at that stage :P

Edited by freeform
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Shen is actualy the yin-yang's yang. Yin Shen is the part of the Yuan Shen that creates dreams and visions and cannot be mastered or subdued into submission.Neither is it gathered, it is part of yourself. Yang Shen is the part of the Yuan Shen that can be controlled and that can extend outside the body. It is used when we see things, "the light of the eyes", and it also manifests the light of Ling. It is also part of yourself.

When we gather qi in meditation, before the qi enters the dantians to become ZhenQi is is undifferentiated. it is just "pure yang" or just "the true one prenatal", it is the dantians  that acts like a battery that transforms the liquid inside into the two poles + and -  or Zhen qi. The body does take in differentiated qi via the ends of the taiji pole but it also extends differentiated qi from those two points .The bai hui and hui yin are means of balancing the internal yin-yang, more than anything else. I know John Chang speaks of yin-yang fusion but I must admit I do not know what exactly he is speaking about and that kind of bugs me. I suspect either misunderstanding, mistranslation or false information.

 

 

Yin Yang pole is that a jerry alan johnson reference?

 

What do you train in?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites