free will is BS

[nine tailed fox]

ok guys this could be a long read but it will be worth

 

i think the concept of free will is BS

 

i will try to prove it

 

so lets start

 

first of all get this book if you can

 

http://www.amazon.com/Plant-Spirit-Shamanism-Traditional-Techniques/dp/1594771189

 

this book opened my eyes

 

if you cant , dont worry i will quote it for you

 

we will take the most talked about topic regarding Free Will

 

it says

 

"you cant get a girl/guy if she/he choose from his FREE WILL to not be with you"

 

so basically if you love someone , it doesnt matter because its her free will to either be with you or not be with you

 

you cant make her love you

 

in the book there is a chapter named

 

PUSANGAS AND PERFUMES: AROMAS FOR LOVE AND WHOLENESS

 

pusanga is kid of a perfume which can get you any girl/guy

 

so lets quote it

 

 

How does perfume magic like this work?

 

AAC: A smell has the power to attract. I can make smells to attract business, people who buy. You just rub it on your face and it brings in the people to your business. I also make perfumes for love, and others forflourishing.^d

These plants are forces of nature; they contain spirit. I watch for what that spirit attracts: maybe bright birds or butterflies, maybe many different animals come to feed from it. A plant that draws bright birds will also draw beautiful women; a plant that is popular and has many “customers” will also be good for business. So these are the plants that I use to help my patients

 

. . .

 

 

 

In the West, people often look down upon such magic as manipulative—they may even see it as evil because it takes away a person’s choice and free will, so he or she has no option but to love you. In the Amazon, however, it is considered normal practice to use pusanga in this way. And, in fact, despite Western morals around the issue, when it comes right down to it, in the United States and Europe, people are often willing to use love magic to find or return a lover as well. Once we get past the “ethical” considerations, we can be just as “manipulative” as the people of Peru.

Ross relates, for example, how he is approached for pusanga by people who even provide a detailed “shopping list” of the qualities their man or woman should have when the fragrance draws this lover to them, like this one from Judy, in 2005: “I would like to bring in someone who is very kind, generous, loving, loyal, near my age, likes travel, country walking, and has a nice speaking voice. He should have lovely qualities and be successful and professional at work, a good sense of humor, make me laugh, and treat me like a queen or princess. He should enjoy travel and discovering new adventures. He should be my best friend and someone that I adore too.” It seems that no matter what our stated morality on this matter, we have very clear ideas where love is involved.

Perhaps, like Judy, the people of the Amazon are in general more honest and upfront about their needs? Or perhaps they carry a less Christianized concept of “right” and “wrong” so are less afraid to ask for what they want? We asked Javier to comment on the moral question:

 

JA: Yes, we shamans understand there is an ethical concern, but put it this way: what if it happened to me? Let’s say I found a woman ugly and she did pusanga magic to make me marry her. Of course, if I found out I’d be outraged and it would be awful if I only discovered it after having children and making a home with her!

But the truth is, I would never know! I would be hopelessly in love with her, and because I had seen beneath her physical appearance, into her soul or her personality, my love for her would be genuine and deep! She would be the mother of my children! My wife! So the pusanga has not taken away my freedom, it has given me more: it has freed me from my prejudice and let me find real happiness.

That is also why pusanga is a secret. You should never tell someone you have used it on them, otherwise its work is undone.

 

 

But [we persisted] does anyone have real freedom if everyone is using pusanga?

 

JA: Does anyone have freedom anyway? We are all taught what to believe, what is right and wrong, from when we are little. Are our minds really free? Pusanga is just a different freedom.

 

 

But we all like to think we are free. If people are using pusanga on us, though, surely we become slaves to their will and victims of magic?

 

JA: [Laughing] You think you are not subject to magic every time you are with a woman or, if you are a woman, with a man? You think the woman you met tonight at the dance wears the same pretty dress every day, the same makeup, the same scent, when she is scrubbing the kitchen or at her factory job? You think that man dresses in a smart suit or wears that expensive aftershave when he is working in the fields? No!

They are doing those things to present themselves in a certain way, a way which is more attractive, but obviously not always true! We all use magic every day in order to make people like us and get what we want. Pusanga is just another way. Underneath everything we are all just looking for love.

 

 

GUYS MUST READ THIS STORY, IF YOU WANNA SEE THE POWER OF PUSANGA

 

 

 

JA: When I was apprenticed to my grandfather, I was told to practice with the pusanga to gain experience. I began by preparing the medicine without any particular intention, but one day a senorita came to me in my vision and said that to use pusanga effectively I must also learn what love is.

Who was this senorita? She was a mermaid. That’s how I can tell you that mermaids exist. She taught me about love and showed me how to prepare pusanga with proper intention and she sang to me, a very sad song. “That is how your lover will come to you, very sad,” she said.

Then there was a fiesta one night in the pueblo because it was someone’s birthday. I was invited and I took a little bottle of pusanga in my pocket. I was dancing with all the girls and I saw a girl who was pretty but she was arrogant and wouldn’t let me get near her. She had long fingernails.^e She said she wouldn’t dance with me because I was unattractive. “Go and find a chola!” [a lower-class Indian], she said, insulting me and hurting my heart.

“If you don’t dance with me tonight, tomorrow you’ll sleep with me,” I said, and I went to the toilet and rubbed myself with pusanga. Then I went back to dance with her and she said “What’s the matter with you, damn it? You know you can’t touch me!” She got nasty and wanted to hit me so I left the fiesta and went home.

The next day I went into the forest to work for three days. On the fourth day I came out and people told me, “Senorita Suzana is looking for you.”

“Why is she looking for me if she hates me and threw me out of the fiesta?” I asked. They replied, “No, she has been round every half an hour asking after you.”

When she finally caught up with me she said, “Javier, forgive me for insulting you in the fiesta.” I said “No. You are very arrogant and I don’t want to talk to you.” I went home and wouldn’t open the door. She waited outside my house all the while I slept, and she was crying.

I knew it was the pusanga that was working so the next night I said to her, “You want to be with me?” “Yes, from the depths of my heart,” she replied. “But you are pretty and I am ugly,” I said. “No, I want to be with you,” she said again.

That night we made love and she didn’t want to go back to her home anymore. I went again into the forest and she followed me. I went to bathe in the river and she jumped in too to play with me. She became my girlfriend for six months.

Later, when the love had passed and the pusanga weakened, she went back [to her home] as though the whole thing had been a dream. I asked myself, “How did I actually live with this girl?” but of course I knew the truth: it had been the pusanga working. And the woman had come to me in sorrow, just as the mermaid said.

The pusanga drew her to me but I made her happy and cured her sadness for that time, and she also learned a lesson: that love has nothing to do with status and it is in the power of any of us to love anyone, regardless of their class or even their looks. It is their heart and their soul that matters.

 

 

AND HERE IS THE SECRET

 

 

The truth about pusanga and Hoodoo attraction oils is, of course, more complicated than a simplistic moral definition of right and wrong allows. Although some might regard these formulas as manipulative, what really gives them their power is not the magic you use on others, but the magic within yourself. Self-belief—“without an atom of doubt”—empowers the fragrance to work for you. It is the spirit—your spirit—that “gives you the force to pull the people.”

What takes place when we use pusanga is not a direct change in other people, but a change in ourselves. We are not so much interfering with the freedom of others or putting a number on them as giving freedom to something within ourselves. It is our own power, charisma, confidence, and self-belief that is enhanced and brought out by the sympathetic magic of the plants; our charm, notthe charm that does the work.

The women of Iquitos, for example, are feared throughout Peru for the power of their pusangas, which mean they could steal any man they wanted from another woman. Watching these women of Iquitos walk down the street, they have a radiant, self-assured quality to them. They know they are powerful and attractive, and this translates into skills of love, the end result being that they can, indeed, have any man.

Where the real power lies, though, is with—or, rather, within—themselves. Because of their belief in the pusanga, their own powers of attraction are increased. The manipulation of others, if it occurs at all, is through their self-confidence, their love of (rather than shame at) their own bodies, and their relaxed sexuality. They are happy and comfortable in their skins in a way many Westerners are not. With the spirit of the plants on their side, the women of Iquitos are able to be all that they naturally are, and their inner beauty can shine.

Pusanga, then, along with the oils of attraction, are completely natural forces that allow us to free our minds from the conditioning that says We cannot have, We are not worthy, We should feel guilt at having this, so we can find our spirit and achieve balance once again. The mystery of pusanga is the mystery of ourselves, and the magic it amplifies is our own.

Edited May 28, 2013 by nine tailed fox

[Maddie]

I agree. Unless one is totally enlightened the will isn't completely free

[DragonsNectar69k]

Hahahaha. The topic should have been about influence and deceit. Not free will.

 

I remember when I was fasting and meditating a lot last year, there was one day where my sense of smell was extremely heightened. I remember a family friend came over and I could literally smell his perfume within the hall and he was all the way in the living room. The smell gave off a dominant signature of a male, and yep sure enough when I went to check to see who it was this friend was male.

 

Fragrances are powerful concerning influence. Perfumes are a multimillion dollar business, because one's sense of smell is not only wired so close to the brain, but the heart and mind rely on it to breath. There is no escaping the aroma of another person, unless you breath through your mouth and even then you might taste this smell. This is why it may seem that one does not indeed have 'free will'. But indeed one still does, it simply comes down to what one truly believes within.

 

From a retrospection position, no one likes to smell bad right? You wouldn't not go to a dump and rub trash all over yourself thinking your going to attract wealth or females or power would you? How could you influence another person by smelling like crap? I actually have a story concerning this...

 

Once I was on a train going back home from work one day and a homeless man entered onto my train car. He smelled as if he had not taken a bath for weeks! He was going around asking others for money and people were not willing to give him any money. So this homeless man then decided to sit in the middle of the train and not move. Mind you, his stench was so strong I almost threw up. I got up and gave him 5$ to leave and go to another part of the train and not come back, he happily obliged. hahaha. He influenced this situation by simply taking advantage of the fact that he was use to this stench while others are use to be clean of body odor. This stench was over powering and no one could escape it besides the homeless man himself.

 

If a prostitute smelled like a bakery, sure I might give her the time of day, not because I want to have sex with her but because I enjoy the smell of a bakery. If a prostitute knew this, it would be simple to ploy me along for sex. There is a reason why prostitutes and whores wear skanky clothing as well, one cannot escape their eyes. But you can chose your thoughts, that is where one can find their free will.

 

Not to be a bible thumper here.. But you might find this verse enlightening..

 

"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:28

 

To master one's self, is to master one's thoughts, reactions, beliefs, etc.

Edited May 28, 2013 by DragonsNectar69k

[nine tailed fox]

Hahahaha. The topic should have been about influence and deceit. Not free will.

 

well i could but the story where the shaman literally attracted that women and had sex with her , against her will ,actually shattered my conception of free will

Edited May 28, 2013 by nine tailed fox

[xor]

well i could but the story where the shaman literally attracted that women and had sex with her , against her will ,actually shattered my conception of free will

 

Yeah regular people can be like that because they live in a trance, reacting to everything. Free will isn't automatic.

[ragamor]

Free will is a bit funky, But it does exist. You just have to learn to deal with influences.

Free will and influences are like yin and yang, they can neglect each other, boost each other, direct each other.

 

Once you discover how strong influences is then you might freak out a bit, as before you where thinking that 100% of what you do is "you", but that is one of the many illusions that needs to be shattered.

 

Influences are not a ugly thing, but a natural thing, even if they makes you desire a woman because of her smell. The smell is just her way of saying: hey look at me, im a female. In a way she is pulling your awareness onto her body, and her body might resonate with your desires and knock you off your shoes.

 

It is true that influences may turn you into a pervert, or it can make someone eat themself to death. But still, the sooner you stop fighting you nature and putting up blockades the sooner you can transcend yourself. Being at a conflict with yourself is not the way to stop doing what you want to stop, just think of how many fat people who have tried everything to go down in weight? Some influences are just to strong and to long lasting to be tamed by brute force alone.

 

Influences are constant, and everpresent. Just being alive is a influence in itself, but it is only you and your free will that can in the end thrust you into higher awareness and being.

[Marblehead]

i think the concept of free will is BS

But you had the free will to join this board, The Tao Bums, didn't you?

 

And you had the free will to post or not to post this opening post for a new thread.

 

Now, when you attain awareness you will realize that, because of your free will, you no longer need free will because you will do whatever is the most natural thing for you to do at any given point in time. But only free will will get you to that state of existence.

[hydrogen]

Not to be a bible thumper here.. But you might find this verse enlightening..

 

"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Matthew 5:28

 

yep, better learn how to look at a woman appreciably.

[thelerner]

Is the moral of the book not to do business with manipulative shamans who use magic to control people? Have you gotten any Pusunga and tested it to take away others free will? Or can you name instances where you or a friend had there free will taken away by the use of pusunga or magic?

Edited May 28, 2013 by thelerner

[gendao]

well i could but the story where the shaman literally attracted that women and had sex with her , against her will ,actually shattered my conception of free will

Even then, some believe that such would have been the choice of her soul for her to experience getting seduced by some "pusanga" plant.

Free will is proportional to how conscious you are of our full Consciousness...

Edited May 28, 2013 by vortex

[Seth Ananda]

Some would say that only an adept has free will, as it is not a quality that one is born with and must be developed.

 

Mundane people simply follow their compulsions {made up of thoughts, beliefs, feelings and desires}, and whichever compulsion is the strongest in a given moment is the one that wins out in the so called 'decision making' factor.

 

This is why people are considered barely human, or 'cattle like' or herd beings in many teachings.

They do not govern themselves, they just mindlessly follow the heard towards whatever they are told will give them pleasure, and away from whatever will be uncomfortable.

And say a glimmering of free thought emerges, then one may start looking for ones dose of comfort in more unusual ideologies, or start to see some 'normal' things as a source of suffering...

 

Just because one made it to the Taobums doesnt mean it was free will that got one here... You could also say that the compulsions in the people here have become slanted towards a 'spiritual' or 'philosophical' perspective in their search for pleasure and freedom from discomfort...

 

[Vmarco]

Some would say that only an adept has free will, as it is not a quality that one is born with and must be developed.

 

Mundane people simply follow their compulsions {made up of thoughts, beliefs, feelings and desires}, and whichever compulsion is the strongest in a given moment is the one that wins out in the so called 'decision making' factor.

 

This is why people are considered barely human, or 'cattle like' or herd beings in many teachings.

They do not govern themselves, they just mindlessly follow the heard towards whatever they are told will give them pleasure, and away from whatever will be uncomfortable.

 

 

That's a good way to broach the subject of the 6 senses,...which do not, and cannot, see things as they are,...thus only an illusion of free will. People who live solely out of the 6 senses for their identity are indeed "cattle like" or Sheeple,...barely human,...compared to one who has birthed Human Beingness, by ascending as it were, to the 7th or higher consciousness,...no longer attached to thoughts, feelings, beliefs, etc.

 

The 6 senses (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, and thinking) only occur in the past,...and thus what real "will" is invoked through reactions to the past, in the past. The 6 senses do not interact with a world that surrounds them, but merely a world that surrounded them.

 

Awareness of how things are, only arises from beyond the 6 senses/consciousness'. For those inquiring about "free will",...good for them,...for such is a step to uncover what the 6 senses conceal.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Vmarco

[JustARandomPanda]

Don't do what you want.

 

Then you may do what you like.

 

[Vmarco]

Don't do what you want.

 

Then you may do what you like.

 

 

GI Gurdjieff used to say (from what I've read)...the most difficult thing in life is to "do." In his opinion, less than .2% ever "do" anything their entire life. He called those who have done at least one thing, the five of twenty of twenty.

 

Of course,...everyone on this forum may believe they are among the ,2%. As for myself, from my observations, that number is far too high,...at least in the USA, where I've spent much of this life. In the USA, I'd suggest a number closer to .02%

 

"Five of twenty of twenty" according to Gurdjieff, suggests that only 20% of humanity ever consider higher realities, and of those just 4% of humanity consider it seriously. Thus, only .2% of humanity ever make the committment to actually realizing how to Do. This is explained (how to "do" something) fairly well in the book In Search of the Miraculous.

consciousness and thus human beingness.

[Rara]

You might enjoy this ...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf9eGUWGtyo

[Marblehead]

For some reason I have the desire to post this in this thread:

 

 

LESSONS IN STONE

 

Performed by Longview
Written By: Dixie Hall (BMI), Tom T. Hall (BMI), Ken Irwin (BMI)

 

　

VERSE 1:

I STOOD IN A QUIET OLD GRAVEYARD
WHERE LIFETIMES ARE CARVED INTO STONE
TELLING THE TIMES OF THE BIRTHDAYS
AND WHEN WE ARE CALLED TO GO HOME
I READ OF THE BIRTH OF A BANKER
WHO DIED LATER ON THE SAME DAY
AND A STOCKBROKER BORN AT A QUARTER TO THREE
AT SEVEN O'CLOCK PASSED AWAY

 

VERSE 2:

I FOLLOWED THE SOUND OF A HAMMER
TO A MOSS COVERED WORKSHOP OUT BACK
I SAID TO AN AGING STONE MASON
SIR, I HAVE A QUESTION TO ASK
THE LIFETIMES OF ALL THOSE WHO SLEEP HERE
YOU SAY WERE A FEW HOURS LONG
COULD IT BE THAT YOU WERE MISTAKEN
OR AM I JUST READING IT WRONG

 

CHORUS:

A QUIET OLD GRAVEYARD WHERE I WALKED ALONE
WITH LESSONS CARVED INTO STONE

 

VERSE 3:

HE BECKONED ME INTO A CHAPEL
HIS CREAKING OLD BONES LED THE WAY
HE SAT DOWN AND GAZED IN THE DISTANCE
AS HE SEARCHED FOR THE WORDS HE WOULD SAY
HE SAID WHEN THESE PEOPLE WERE CHILDREN
THEY HURRIED TO CLIMB DOWN AND PLAY
THE YEARS PASSED THEM BY IN AN INSTANT
THEY WORKED ALL THEIR GOOD YEARS AWAY

 

VERSE 4:

UNNOTICED THE YEARS CREPT ON BY THEM
AS THEY SEARCHED FOR FORTUNE AND FAME
THE ONLY TIME THEY COULD BE HAPPY
WAS WHEN THEY WERE MAKING A GAIN
SO WE COUNTED THEIR LIVES AS THEY LIVED THEM
WE TOOK OUT THE TROUBLE AND STRIFE
WE COUNTED THE TIMES THEY WERE HAPPY
AND THAT'S ALL THEY GOT OUT OF LIFE

 

CHORUS:

A QUIET OLD GRAVEYARD WHERE I WALKED ALONE
WITH LESSONS CARVED INTO STONE

[Vmarco]

You might enjoy this ...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf9eGUWGtyo

 

Excellent commentary on the subject,...thanks for sharing it.

[hydrogen]

That's a good way to broach the subject of the 6 senses,...which do not, and cannot, see things as they are,...thus only an illusion of free will. People who live solely out of the 6 senses for their identity are indeed "cattle like" or Sheeple,...barely human,...

 

I always wonder what you think of your mom?

[JustBHappy]

Sorry to be so blunt, but it's silly to say free will is BS.

Will is something that all great masters train. Yes train, it doesn't develop on it's own without slowly and patiently working on it. The important thing is to understand that it can be trained, and has tremendous benefits to those who commit to it.

The common man on the other hand, weakens his will day by day and has no understanding of the jewel he has lost.

Make no excuses, and don't buy into anyone's negativity and pre-made excuses for failure. We all have free will, but most of us do not value it nor develop it. Instead some of us use the silly "there's no such thing as free will" as an excuse, a crutch towards mediocrity and failure. In some sense, it's better this way because the few that do develop their will to a high degree wield an enormous power and with power comes responsibility which clearly those who cannot or do not develop their will wouldn't be able to handle wisely.

[Marblehead]

Sorry to be so blunt, but it's silly to say free will is BS.

 

Will is something that all great masters train. Yes train, it doesn't develop on it's own without slowly and patiently working on it. The important thing is to understand that it can be trained, and has tremendous benefits to those who commit to it.

 

The common man on the other hand, weakens his will day by day and has no understanding of the jewel he has lost.

 

Make no excuses, and don't buy into anyone's negativity and pre-made excuses for failure. We all have free will, but most of us do not value it nor develop it. Instead some of us use the silly "there's no such thing as free will" as an excuse, a crutch towards mediocrity and failure. In some sense, it's better this way because the few that do develop their will to a high degree wield an enormous power and with power comes responsibility which clearly those who cannot or do not develop their will wouldn't be able to handle wisely.

I just wanted to repeat this post because it is so very valid, in my opinion.

 

Thanks JustBHappy!

[Flolfolil]

correct me if you believe i am wrong, but isn't the will just an aspect of the non existent self?

 

also i don't believe partially getting rid of your will has to necessarily mean being a slave, it is more like eradication of expectations and desires. imho

 

obviously will exists in some manner and will always exist because there are things happening that will always happen whether our thinking mind wants them to or not. Will is the spark of life that makes the heart beat, but let it beat too fast and your free will might start stepping on other peoples toes.

[Marblehead]

Are you sure you want an answer to that from a Materialistic Taoist?

[Flolfolil]

Are you sure you want an answer to that from a Materialistic Taoist?

yes i am

Edited May 29, 2013 by Flolfolil

[manitou]

How bout a maternalistic Taoist?

 

It's simple.

We are One.

Most of us don't know it.

Look back over your own life. Doesn't it fit together rather like a puzzle, to this point?

Can you look back and see why some things that happened to you happened to you?

Can you see how it brought you to your path?

Can you see that it was exactly what you needed, not necessarily what you wanted?

Can you see that free will in an unenlightened one is merely reaction to stimulus?

Fear of not having enough is a powerful stimulus to accumulate things in life.

Most of us, until learning that we are One and have nothing to worry about

Are most concerned about accumulating.

We don't have free will

Until we truly learn to think.

 

Find out what's worth keeping

then blow the rest away.

[Flolfolil]

Can you see that free will in an unenlightened one is merely reaction to stimulus?

this is beautiful, and pretty much the only reason i think there is a possibility that i could suddenly start caring