Trolling and Off-topic disruptions

[Marblehead]

Oh so all these discussions are a game or competition to you ... is that right ... very interesting. I think you have to bear in mind that a lot of people come here to discuss and learn from each other and are interested in the subject matter. Give it a thought.

Hi Apech,

 

Look a little deeper into what he said, please. What he said is not off the mark. But your return is on mark as well. I'm not saying "right or wrong" here but there is truth in what he said.

[Marblehead]

TTB's, in allowing injustice to go unchecked, is becoming corrupt in its soul. {the mods are the soul}

I won't deny the truth in your post as there is much truth there.

 

But, I don't agree that the Mods are the soul of this board. It is we, the members. We are a very mixed bunch of people with just about every belief system represented here.

 

There are many here who were raise to be anti-gay. Mostly a result of their religion. I was raised that way and it was very difficult for me to discard my prejudices against gay people. I'm not gay but I know that there are many who are and I have no right whatever to place my personal values on anyone else. If is person is gay or choses to be gay that is their personal preferrence and has nothing to do with anyone else.

 

But let's be honest. People who have been brainwashed to believe that homosexuality is wrong are truely speaking the truth as they understand it. It is all subjective. Objectively, it doesn't matter.

[Marblehead]

I just reported the problem. Vortex has joined the thread in question with outrageous remarks obtained on a religious site.

I'm considering reporting you for reporting Vortex. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

I was having more fun when we were talking about squirrels and hawks.

[gatito]

If you can't defeat your opponents and keep your own threads in the direction you want them going, then that is a personal shortcoming within in you, and it means you have lost the conversation and your opponents have owned you.

 

Running and crying to the mods is weak, and the last resort of someone who can't win.

 

To a large extent, I agree with this, however, I prefer to think in terms of finding common ground for discussion or choosing to walk away from the problem.

 

There is a place for moderators here and we could do our best to help them out in the first place - or not.

 

It cannot be easy both to moderate and to take part in discussions and enjoy membership of the forum.

[gatito]

The Homophobia on this forum is disgusting.

 

The mods continue to refuse action on curtailing Homophobia, which is wrong.

 

When a thread gets 'out of hand' on Homophobia Issues, the Mods simply send it to the pit, without reprimanding anyone.

 

Can you Imagine how different it would be if it was Racism they were preaching? 6 month suspension!

But no, its not racism, its homophobia. That seems to be all well and good on this forum. A Mods thumbs up!

 

 

Known homophobic hate speech advocates: ETthoughts, WhitewolfrunningonAir and Gaito, continue to spread viscous and slanted anti gay propaganda, unrepromanded.

 

WWROA should be sitting on 3 to 6, for numerous of his postings, unless of course Homophobia is not an important social justice issue our society is facing right now.

 

 

Ralis continues to bring up this 'non Issue' and is met with ridicule and derision, mostly by the offenders here.

 

 

TTB's, in allowing injustice to go unchecked, is becoming corrupt in its soul. {the mods are the soul}

 

Liar!!

 

Speak to me directly - this is libel!

 

What homophobic comments have I made specifically.

[gatito]

I'm waiting!!

[gatito]

EVIDENCE?????????

[gatito]

Put up or STFU!

[Birch]

I won't deny the truth in your post as there is much truth there.

 

But, I don't agree that the Mods are the soul of this board. It is we, the members. We are a very mixed bunch of people with just about every belief system represented here.

 

There are many here who were raise to be anti-gay. Mostly a result of their religion. I was raised that way and it was very difficult for me to discard my prejudices against gay people. I'm not gay but I know that there are many who are and I have no right whatever to place my personal values on anyone else. If is person is gay or choses to be gay that is their personal preferrence and has nothing to do with anyone else.

 

But let's be honest. People who have been brainwashed to believe that homosexuality is wrong are truely speaking the truth as they understand it. It is all subjective. Objectively, it doesn't matter.

 

Most of this was a great post Mr MH, however the very last part isn't exactly IMO helpful as the people who express hatred for gay people or other people they have been taught to dislike tend to impose their dislike on them through active prejudice (e.g. workplace, social spheres etc) so while their opinions are wholly subjective, their actions and words are not. I think it's tricky to use the 'entirely subjective' card when that same subjectivity is to one set of people's benefit and others' detriment. To check whether this is the case, turn the tables on the 'subjective' qualities you're referring to and see how that works for you.

[Apech]

Hi Apech,

 

Look a little deeper into what he said, please. What he said is not off the mark. But your return is on mark as well. I'm not saying "right or wrong" here but there is truth in what he said.

 

Well you may be right but if you have a thread which is deliberately hijacked then going to the mods or reporting is a reasonable thing to do ... to do this is not a personal weakness but a legitimate way of using the rules of the board. After all if you report it does not mean the mods have to act on it ... it is then up to them to judge the situation which is what they are there for.

[Apech]

I won't deny the truth in your post as there is much truth there.

 

But, I don't agree that the Mods are the soul of this board. It is we, the members. We are a very mixed bunch of people with just about every belief system represented here.

 

There are many here who were raise to be anti-gay. Mostly a result of their religion. I was raised that way and it was very difficult for me to discard my prejudices against gay people. I'm not gay but I know that there are many who are and I have no right whatever to place my personal values on anyone else. If is person is gay or choses to be gay that is their personal preferrence and has nothing to do with anyone else.

 

But let's be honest. People who have been brainwashed to believe that homosexuality is wrong are truely speaking the truth as they understand it. It is all subjective. Objectively, it doesn't matter.

 

 

I agree with 90% of what you are saying ... especially that its the members not the mods who are soul of the board.

 

I think there are some issues where hatred is expressed ... like racism and homophobia where I think it is right to make a stand. I would accept that there are people whose sincerely held belief system makes them not able to accept being gay as ok ... but really its the hatred that needs to be addressed. You might I suppose hate what someone does but you should not hate the person.

[Marblehead]

Most of this was a great post Mr MH, however the very last part isn't exactly IMO helpful as the people who express hatred for gay people or other people they have been taught to dislike tend to impose their dislike on them through active prejudice (e.g. workplace, social spheres etc) so while their opinions are wholly subjective, their actions and words are not. I think it's tricky to use the 'entirely subjective' card when that same subjectivity is to one set of people's benefit and others' detriment. To check whether this is the case, turn the tables on the 'subjective' qualities you're referring to and see how that works for you.

I can't argue with you here -K-. But I can't change anyone. They will continue to be who they are and will continue to support their beliefs regardless of the flaws. And the only way we can help them see the flaws in their belief is to talk with them. Suspending or banning helps nothing.

[Marblehead]

Well you may be right but if you have a thread which is deliberately hijacked then going to the mods or reporting is a reasonable thing to do ... to do this is not a personal weakness but a legitimate way of using the rules of the board. After all if you report it does not mean the mods have to act on it ... it is then up to them to judge the situation which is what they are there for.

No arguement. What you say is valid.

[Marblehead]

... but really its the hatred that needs to be addressed. You might I suppose hate what someone does but you should not hate the person.

Excellent observation!

[Birch]

I can't argue with you here -K-. But I can't change anyone. They will continue to be who they are and will continue to support their beliefs regardless of the flaws. And the only way we can help them see the flaws in their belief is to talk with them. Suspending or banning helps nothing.

 

I've found IME that talking (see my PPF on 'justification') generally leads nowhere. Consequences lead somewhere. One could definitely say to a poster who is actively putting the 'hate gays' stuff on here (for example), 'I understand this is your position but expressions of hate towards other groups of people are banned by TTB forum rules (I think this would come under them anyway) and if you persist in posting this stuff, you will receive a (whatever the sanction is). So it's not as if the person wouldn't be 'talked to'.

[Marblehead]

I've found IME that talking (see my PPF on 'justification') generally leads nowhere. Consequences lead somewhere. One could definitely say to a poster who is actively putting the 'hate gays' stuff on here (for example), 'I understand this is your position but expressions of hate towards other groups of people are banned by TTB forum rules (I think this would come under them anyway) and if you persist in posting this stuff, you will receive a (whatever the sanction is). So it's not as if the person wouldn't be 'talked to'.

Hi -K-,

 

I moderate at the other forum I am a member of. One time, and only this one time, I editted a member's post and removed an offending sentence in his post. When I did this I stated what I had done and why I did it in that individual post and then I sent that member a PM and requested that they do not make any more offending statements else I would have to edit them as well.

 

I understand what you are saying. I understand that many others feel the same way. Bottom line, whatever is best for the board.

 

No personal threats or insults. That is the most important consideration Sean had, in my opinion, when he decided to have moderators. Of course, statements of hatred, I would think, would have been included in with the insults category.

[Birch]

I dunno about the editing part. I'd leave the person to post whatever they post and deal with it as is. The editing part wouldn't sit well with me. However someone pointing out what's hateful or insulting about what I'm posting would.

[Aetherous]

Seth,

Vilifying and targeting a demographic of people with hatred has no place on any forum outside of the westborough baptist church forums.

 

I agree with you. But who is doing that here, and how? I know you already named some names...but I don't think they have crossed the line into Westborough territory.

 

Yes you can. Racism here has received swift mod reactions {at times} in the past. People have the right to be Racist or Homophobic within the sanctity of their own minds, but not to spread that shit on a forum.

If someone started referring to blacks as 'niggers' or slave monkeys here, and began posting 'science' sourced from the Klan websites, they would be banned by the mods as fast as they could say "Ni..!"

 

Well, no one has come onto this forum calling people "faggots" (sorry) or anything. No one has posted info from websites of people who have historically been murderers of gay people. I really don't think a rule has been broken here.

 

But if its about Gays it seems like its just fine to source all kinds of 'science' from conservative websites, as long at it helps you paint them all as being STD ridden perverts, who are not really Gay, but are merely choosing live that life style.

 

Conservativism has no absolutely comparison to the KKK, unless a Conservative would somehow be in the KKK. I say that as an Independent and someone who is generally anti-Conservative.

But if a website with information is questionable, then it can simply be pointed out. It's not against the rules to post from websites that have a bias, is it? Unless the poster knew they were spreading false information. In this case, I think they believe the information is completely true...

 

(Maybe there needs to be a Taobums court of law....?)

 

I was brought up in an Intensely Homophobic environment. My family believed that Gay men should be publicly stoned - Literally.

Once I had left that toxic environment, I knew I still had many prejudices towards homosexuals, so I endeavoured to meet them and ask them about their actual experiences.

 

I didn't tell them what they were like, from the christian 'science' I had been indoctrinated with, but I said "I have always been told that... about you guys. Is that true?"

 

No one here is saying they should be publicly stoned. And at least personally, I wasn't using "Christian science" to share the idea that homosexual men tend to be STD-ridden. I used my experience in a health care setting, as well as the CDC website.

And to be clear...being gay doesn't mean you are STD-ridden. A person can probably lead a safe lifestyle while being gay, if they're smart.

 

I think it is fine to ask questions. But it is not fine at all to take a stand on the subject, with ones little list of links and publicly declare that they are un-natural filthy things.

 

But if those little links show actual facts (statistics for instance) regarding the point they're making, then it's also fine, because it's truth.

 

Think of Bullying in schools. The schools with the best anti bullying policies, and a Zero Tolerance for bullying stance are the ones that have the least bullying, and are the ones that are the safest to go to.

 

Coincidentally, my elementary school had that policy. One day suddenly the principal walked up to me after recess and grabbed my arm forcibly. Apparently someone said that I had pushed a girl from behind. I didn't recall doing it, and neither did the girl, who was my friend. The punishment was rather severe for a little kid who likely didn't actually do it...

 

the next time WWROA opens his mouth with anti Gay propoganda, he should be dished 6 months. Zero Tolerance on these Issues.

 

Of course If the board thinks these Issues are not really 'Important' cultural and social issues, and is happy to allow hate speech and ignorance to fester here at the TTB's, then nothing should happen.

 

If there is actual hate speech, rather than just slightly biased sources of information, then moderation should definitely happen.

The issues are really important.

[Aetherous]

Hiding posts/threads is usually a temporary measure pending final action. if for instance the mod team are discussing what to do.

 

Is it possible for it to not happen at all?

[Apech]

I dunno about the editing part. I'd leave the person to post whatever they post and deal with it as is. The editing part wouldn't sit well with me. However someone pointing out what's hateful or insulting about what I'm posting would.

 

 

Sean is against editing so we didn't do it as mods. We asked the poster to change it and if they did that was fine if they didn't then a suspension ... and the post if extreme might be hidden but usually left with a comment. Sometimes moved to the Pit. for most things - because most TBs are decent people I didn't mind putting it in the Pit. But of course if its in the Pit its still on the board ... still part of TBs ... so I had a real problem with racist material which I thought should be deleted entirely ... and I see no difference between discriminating against people for race or sexuality. But the content I'm talking about here would be hate attacks and not just religious/political views because at heart I believe in freedom of expression ... I defend peoples right to post even if I violently disagree with what they are saying.

[Apech]

Is it possible for it to not happen at all?

 

 

Of course its possible but it exists as a mod facility so sometimes its used. I don't think it should ever be permanent but it is up to the mod team to decide on a case by case basis.

 

I understand now that I am no longer a mod that the sudden disappearance of content can be disconcerting ... if you are a mod you can still see it pinked out ... so the effect is more like highlighting ... and I think maybe there is a case for for a general explanation as to when this might happen and why. Timescales can be difficult especially now as the mod team is so small (3) i think you need about 5/6 active mods to get reasonable coverage otherwise long delays will occur.

[Birch]

 

 

Sean is against editing so we didn't do it as mods. We asked the poster to change it and if they did that was fine if they didn't then a suspension ... and the post if extreme might be hidden but usually left with a comment. Sometimes moved to the Pit. for most things - because most TBs are decent people I didn't mind putting it in the Pit. But of course if its in the Pit its still on the board ... still part of TBs ... so I had a real problem with racist material which I thought should be deleted entirely ... and I see no difference between discriminating against people for race or sexuality. But the content I'm talking about here would be hate attacks and not just religious/political views because at heart I believe in freedom of expression ... I defend peoples right to post even if I violently disagree with what they are saying.

 

I agree with this. I think what some pit contributors don't realise is that both their pit postings and their 'regular' board postings are both available to let people come to some kind of personal understanding of that poster overall. So not being 'modded' beyond the pit doesn't necessarily mean there's no awareness. This being said, there are a few people who don't seem to have noticed how much of their posting goes on in the pit. Those people get the ignore button from me more often than others and it's not simply because I don't agree with them.It's because I don't want to read through badly substantiated posts. Mine could probably do to be better upheld hmmm.

[JustARandomPanda]

I hid the LGBT thread temporarily while waiting for the opinion of other mods to see what kind - if any - action needs to take place (I've never modded hate speech before). If I just acted on the spot that's being a bit dictatorial and as Apech himself knows that's not the way the modding has evolved at TTBs. Any mod who does act on the spot without further input from other mods had better be ready for a shit-storm coming their way from the other mods unless the evidence is blatantly clear it was a ToS violation (someone posting porn, actual threats of violence - very obvious stuff like that).

 

And as we can see from the disagreements within this very thread the posts in the LGBT thread are NOT blatantly obvious. There's genuine disagreement as to whether it was 'hate speech' or whether it was posting unpleasant data.

 

There's a reason the modding evolved the way it has.

 

Most of all it's to try to prevent the very thing this thread is all about. Dictatorial modding. It's meant to preserve as much freedom as possible by the mods having a light hand as much as possible. Believe me...this is very much a case of be careful what you wish for. Because right now if we started to mod the way some in this whole thread say we are being derelict in doing the atmosphere here would change. Big time. And I'm willing to bet a lot of people here would be hugely unhappy with the way it would change.

 

Let me give you an example I had of a discussion within the past 3 weeks with the other 2 mods over a TTB who's posts are strongly disliked and even hated by a rather consistent round-up of the same other TTBs. It's instructive because it follows a consistent pattern that goes on here by many TTBs...not just the one in this particular example that sparked the discussion.

 

 

Condescension

 

 

Let's look at what Meriam-Webster Dictionary defines it as

 

 

 

Definition of CONDESCENSION

1

: voluntary descent from one's rank or dignity in relations with an inferior

2

: patronizing attitude or behavior

See condescension defined for English-language learners »

See condescension defined for kids »

Origin of CONDESCENSION

Late Latin condescension-, condescensio, from condescendere

First Known Use: 1647

 

and here's how Dictionary.com defines it

 

 

 

con·de·scen·sion[kon-duh-sen-shuhn] Show IPA

noun

1.

an act or instance of condescending.

2.

behavior that is patronizing or condescending.

3.

voluntary assumption of equality with a person regarded as inferior.

Origin:
1635–45; < Late Latin condēscēnsiōn- (stem of condēscēnsiō ). See con-, descension

Related forms

con·de·scen·sive [kon-duh-sen-siv] Show IPA , adjective

con·de·scen·sive·ly, adverb

non·con·de·scen·sion, noun

 

 

In both cases the real idea behind the word is that someone is 'talking down to' someone else with the implication that other person is inferior.

 

This word describes quite well actually what most posts that the mod team doesn't act upon are doing.

 

But you'll notice that word is not in the ToS. But most passive-aggressive posts from one TTB to another are described by the above word. Note that such can be attacks yet not fall into the category of ad hominem. Ad hominem may be condescending but it's not always the case that condescension is necessarily also an ad hominem. Condescension attacks fly under-the-ToS radar.

 

So I wondered if maybe the word condescension should be added to the ToS. Cat then pointed out (and I agree) that the majority of passive-aggressive attacks from one TTB to another fall under this very word and that if we added it to the ToS we'd all have to give up our day jobs to start modding diligently to make sure no one was posting anything that could be interpreted as being condescending. The tone at TTBs would change. But it wouldn't be an organic change. It'd be a top-down change. Something I'm not in favor of. And it'd still be a top-down change that would rely upon mod judgement calls. That part can not be gotten around.

 

If you don't like office politics and you don't like what your own governments are doing and you don't like the judgement calls often made by your supreme courts why in the world do you expect you'd like what is essentially the same thing here at TTB?

[Mal]

^ Well said SB

 

So 22 pages (so far) of posts on "Trolling and Off topic discussion" perhaps show what TTB actually is, a diverse collection of people with very different views. Yet generally managing to express their views in their own personal way - insight, personal experiences, squirrels! - while being aware that others may or may not agree with them and being mindful of their feelings and personal views.

 

While I find it disappointing in a "spiritual" forum that some want to analyse the past, label others, demand punishments, or (in my view most disappointing of all) perhaps even be posting with the intent to cause harm to other TTB members.

 

- that's just me and others may not agree and that's cool as long as we are trying to communicate with each other.