Further discussion

[Apech]

As you know, I always defend Pure Land Buddhism against stefos.

 

 

Well good ... I read a paper recently which said there was an Eastern Akshobya pure land before the Amitabha one. Any way I am always prepared to defend Pure Land practice ...

[Apech]

Does that mean the same thing as "I will pray for Jesus to come to you, heathen" ?

 

 

I think its a bit better than that.

[rene]

I think its a bit better than that.

 

That's what I thought, too. All kinds of concepts cross cultures/religions... some more intensely than others. As I'm not totally familiar with 'tonglen practice' , I was curious if that action rose to a similar level.

Edited August 15, 2013 by rene

[Apech]

That's what I thought, too. All kinds of concepts cross cultures/religions... some more intense than others. As I'm not totally familiar with 'tonglen practice' , I was curious if that action rose to a similar level.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonglen

 

all us Buddhists do it at some time or other (except Therevadans).

[rene]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonglen

 

all us Buddhists do it at some time or other (except Therevadans).

 

From the link -

"In the practice, one visualizes taking onto oneself the suffering of others on the in-breath, and on the out-breath giving happiness and success to all sentient beings.^[3][4] As such it is a training in altruism.^[3][5]""

 

***

Ah, I see. So...Steve including the lamas that know alwayson in his Tonglen practice don't feel they need 'saved', just relieved of 'suffering'. Yes, that is a lesser degree. Gotcha. Thanks! (-:

[steve]

Does that mean the same thing as "I will pray for Jesus to come to you, heathen" ?

 

 

Any self respecting Jew, Christian, or Muslim would probably categorize me as a heathen if we had a few minutes to discuss theology together.

I practice tonglen periodically (not everyday day) and think it's a beautiful practice.

[steve]

From the link -

"In the practice, one visualizes taking onto oneself the suffering of others on the in-breath, and on the out-breath giving happiness and success to all sentient beings.^[3][4] As such it is a training in altruism.^[3][5]""

 

***

Ah, I see. So...Steve including the lamas that know alwayson in his Tonglen practice don't feel they need 'saved', just relieved of 'suffering'. Yes, that is a lesser degree. Gotcha. Thanks! (-:

No saving involved. In fact, I think the practice does alot more for me than for the objects of my affection.

 

On a related note, I recently listened to Allan Wallace talk about what we mean by "all sentient beings."

It can be difficult to genuinely visualize "all sentient beings" and can feel a bit contrived.

He suggests that we begin with visualizing everyone we personally have come into contact with in a finite period of time.

That can then be gradually extended in space and time to encompass as many beings (and it's not limited to peopled) that we care to include. I thought it was a nice little helpful hint.

[rene]

 

Any self respecting Jew, Christian, or Muslim would probably categorize me as a heathen if we had a few minutes to discuss theology together.

I practice tonglen periodically (not everyday day) and think it's a beautiful practice.

 

Excellent! Next time you do, kindly feel free to include me in your Tonglen thoughts.

[rene]

No saving involved. In fact, I think the practice does alot more for me than for the objects of my affection.

 

That seems to be the case when 'forgiveness' is undertaken as well. (-:

 

On a related note, I recently listened to Allan Wallace talk about what we mean by "all sentient beings."

It can be difficult to genuinely visualize "all sentient beings" and can feel a bit contrived.

He suggests that we begin with visualizing everyone we personally have come into contact with in a finite period of time.

That can then be gradually extended in space and time to encompass as many beings (and it's not limited to peopled) that we care to include. I thought it was a nice little helpful hint.

 

It is! Similar to everything that's in the heart, when every breath is one of gratitude.

 

Thanks for your reply.

[manitou]

I would go even further than to include all sentient beings. the earth, for example. Is it not an act of love to pick up a piece of trash on the street and walk over to the dumpster, to honor the Mother? If one sees the All as One, this includes all matter, realizing that all of this is one big play that goes on with or without our consent. I've always wondered at the emphasis that some sects place on the importance of relieving suffering. Surely it is important to relieve suffering of every living thing, whether it be a bird with a broken wing, or to give money to a wino that is panhandling. He too needs to have his 'suffering' removed, even if that means he's going down the street to buy a bottle of wine. But I still give the money. My hope is that that bottle of wine will bring him one bottle closer to his bottom, his turnaround point. Or he may die, in which case his suffering will be removed as well. After all, the Tao considers us all as straw dogs, and I don't think it cares one way or the other who dies when or where.

 

It seems that sometimes there is an overemphasis on relieving one's own suffering. That seems a little on the selfish side to me. But then again.....I'm not a Buddhist and I may be looking at this all wrong. When we find the place where all paths meet, there is nothing left but love. The only thing at that point that gets in the way is ego. I don't know if we can ever fully transcend that. I would guess the Dalai Lama has his good days and bad days too. He too has to have enough ego to stay out of oncoming traffic (assuming he's doing the driving) and my guess is that he too must periodically struggle with this as we do.

[C T]

Shantideva said it was foolish to try to find enough leather to cover the entire earth's surface.

[Creation]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonglen

 

all us Buddhists do it at some time or other (except Therevadans).

I've never heard of Tonglen being practiced in East Asian Buddhism.

[3bob]

"I would go even further than to include all sentient beings. the earth, for example. Is it not an act of love to pick up a piece of trash on the street and walk over to the dumpster, to honor the Mother?... " Manitou

 

My take: She (the Earth soul) is one of the most sentient, true and beautiful beings there is (along with her helper souls), just of a far different order or scale of being compared to us humans -her little guests/children.

[rene]

After all, the Tao considers us all as straw dogs, and I don't think it cares one way or the other who dies when or where.

 

You are right, it does not, and to me that is the greatest gift of all.

[Mark Foote]

"Buddhahood without meditation"- s'interesting. There's a line in Gospel of Thomas:

 

"(29) Jesus said: If the flesh has come into existence because of the spirit, it is a marvel; but if <the> spirit (has come into existence) because of [the body], it is a marvel of marvels. But I marvel at how this great wealth has made its home in such poverty."

 

(coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 18-19 log. 22, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

The other day I wrote this over on Brad Warner's blog:

 

“Moreover, any attempt to bridge the gap through the use of words such as “god” or “universe” or “mystic consciousness” in my experience tends to condition people to ignore the discrete reality from which the sense of continuity arises in favor of an affirmation of continuity apart from discrete reality which is entirely mental, and to suffer as a result.”

 

Folks like the idea of something continuous and ineffable, and they don't look for its source in the body. That's the lesson Jesus was gently suggesting, at least to me. One more thing that Fred on Brad's blog put me up to:

 

"The sense of location and the freedom of the sense of location to move are really a part of the movement of breath; if they are constricted, the breath is cut off. That is why Bodhidharma said, "have no coughing or sighing in the mind-- with your mind like a wall you can enter the way" (Denkoroku, translated by Thomas Cleary, 3 pg 111). Through his use of the words "coughing" and "sighing", Bodhidharma points to the intimate relationship between self-awareness, or mind, and continuity in the movement of breath; his direction only really makes sense when the exercise of equalibrioception and proprioception, the senses most identified with the physical awareness of self, is experienced as inherent in the movement of breath, as necessary to the continuity of breath.

Setting up a mindfulness of proprioception, or the freedom of awareness to move, in connection with equalibrioception, or the sense of balanced movement wherever my awareness is now, helps me to relax into my own experience, even if the only result is that I fall asleep." (the full post is here).

 

You could say that lately I practice as I describe above, yet I am fully aware that the real practice is unintentional, that only the inherent activity can make such a great wealth out of such poverty.

 

Pardon me while I touch my head to the floor.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Mark Foote

[C T]

I've never heard of Tonglen being practiced in East Asian Buddhism.

Yes, they do, but in a real way. Just that they dont call it tonglen, they call it 'the art of being fully human'.

 

Its customary (speaking broadly and generally), not only among the buddhists in East Asia, but across cultures there, to be quite generous and open. (with the exception of Hong Kong... this place has 2 faces, one appears during commercial hours, and the other after dark)

[Bubbles]

Yes, they do, but in a real way. Just that they dont call it tonglen, they call it 'the art of being fully human'.

 

I have nothing special to say axcept that I like very much this.

[Jetsun]

I think Tonglen can be just a natural extension of logic in that there are billions of other people and just one of you, so the welfare of billions is logically of more important concern than the welfare of one person; plus your individual life is finite but there will be potentially infinite generations of people who will live after you so working for their benefit is logically more of a concern than your own. So I understand that many cultures and individuals can practice Tonglen naturally without ever hearing of the official practice.

[C T]

I have nothing special to say axcept that I like very much this.

im reporting you to the mods.

 

for being gracious.

[manitou]

Its customary (speaking broadly and generally), not only among the buddhists in East Asia, but across cultures there, to be quite generous and open. (with the exception of Hong Kong... this place has 2 faces, one appears during commercial hours, and the other after dark)

 

Boy, isn't that the truth? When I traveled to China (especially in the rural towns) those night markets are scary.

[manitou]

Folks like the idea of something continuous and ineffable, and they don't look for its source in the body. That's the lesson Jesus was gently suggesting, at least to me. One more thing that Fred on Brad's blog put me up to:

 

 

I couldn't agree more. Our source is the sun. We are stardust. We have a piece of the sun at the core of our planet. We develop the flame within us when it appears. This tells me we manifest from the inside to the outside - we are One and we are the mind of the ineffable but it is found by the process of elimination of the blockages within us. I'll go so far as to say I think we actually manifest the weather too. I think the current crazy weather (stemming from global warming and the melting of the polar ice caps), changing the world weather by the very cold melting of fresh water (not salt water) being introduced into the system and maintaining its own current separate from the salt water currents already in existence; consequently all the currents are affected. If one believes that the upshot in the earth's temperature is man-made, it is Greed that continues the trend. My feeling is that the incredible political unrest, the bipolarity within governmental systems, and the need for the wealthy oil barons to have even more than they have (disregarding the rest of us) is what is generating this current condition.

 

But I'm not pessimistic about this. I realize that only the negative conditions make the news. For every action there is an equal and opposing reaction - only the equivalent reaction doesn't make the news. There are those of us, many on sites like TTB's and others, who sit at the top of the cloud, and we will be part of the solution in the long run. But currently the obvious thing is the dark underside of the cloud, not the beautiful loving top of it.

 

We, the earth, the atmosphere, the melting of the ice caps are all One. The great giant mind knows what it's doing - but as it says in the TTC, things must be inflated before they are deflated. I think all the unrest in the world is the 'meek inheriting the earth' . The 'meek' in this sense does not mean those who are timid; I think meek in this sense is the common man, not the high riders.

[steve]

I have nothing special to say axcept that I like very much this.

I think that's pretty special...

[Creation]

Yes, they do, but in a real way. Just that they dont call it tonglen, they call it 'the art of being fully human'.

 

Its customary (speaking broadly and generally), not only among the buddhists in East Asia, but across cultures there, to be quite generous and open.

If an attutude of being generous and open and humane is equivalent to tonglen, I imagine devout Theravdins practice Tonglen as well. Also, devout Christians, etc.

 

I assume you would know if the formal practice of Tonglen existed in East Asian Buddhism, so I'll take this as a confirmation that it does not. I actually wasn't 100% sure.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Creation

[Apech]

If an attutude of being generous and open and humane is equivalent to tonglen, I imagine devout Theravdins practice Tonglen as well. Also, devout Christians, etc.

 

I assume you would know if the formal practice of Tonglen existed in East Asian Buddhism, so I'll take this as a confirmation that it does not. I actually wasn't 100% sure.

 

 

Similarly I mistakenly thought this was a general Mahayana technique but it looks like it is specifically Tibetan (from Atisha though so I guess originally Indian).

[3bob]

Manitou, said: "After all, the Tao considers us all as straw dogs, and I don't think it cares one way or the other who dies when or where".

 

Rene said: "You are right, it does not, and to me that is the greatest gift of all."

 

3bob said: Could you gals qualify (and contextualize) your thoughts above? (thanks)