Further discussion

[steve]

Dudjom Rinpoche (the head of the Nyingma school, supreme terton, rainbow body etc.) says that Buddhadharma is the only way to liberation.

I see Dudjom Rinpoche sitting around a table with Laozi, Ramana Maharshi, Anthony Demello, Isaac the Blind, and Uwais al Qarani. In their conversations I see them discussing the common truth underlying their varied words and methods. I see them finding warm camaraderie and mutual support and love. I don't see Dudjom Rinpoche telling them they have no hope of liberation.

 

 

Dudjom Rinpoche's legs would often be disappearing.

 

He had the ability to go full light body if he wanted.

 

Sounds a bit like anime to me...

God only has Count Chocula power but Dudjom Rinpoche's got full-on Rainbow Body!

Put that way, I'll go Buddhism all day long!!

 

[Apech]

Apech, thank you! Do I owe you anything for the instructional?

 

 

If you google around you'll probably find better versions of that book cover ... that was the first one I found as an example.

 

Do you owe me anything? Hmmm yes your immortal soul ha ah ah aha *wicked laughter rings out*

[Tibetan_Ice]

Jesus had only a physical body, even after resurrection.

 

Dudjom Rinpoche's legs would often be disappearing.

 

He had the ability to go full light body if he wanted.

 

Alwaysoff

If the only criteria you have for being a 'valid religion' is that you have rainbow body, or that the legs were disappearing, think again. And thank you for pointing this out, for it surely serves to unite, not divide.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtle_body

 

A subtle body is one of a series of psycho-spiritual constituents of living beings, according to various esoteric, occult, and mystical teachings. Each subtle body corresponds to a subtle plane of existence, in a hierarchy or great chain of being that culminates in the physical form.

It is known in different spiritual traditions; "the most sacred body" (wujud al-aqdas) and "supracelestial body" (jism asli haqiqi) in Sufism, "the diamond body" in Taoism and Vajrayana, "the light body" or "rainbow body" in Tibetan Buddhism, "the body of bliss" in Kriya Yoga, and "the immortal body" (soma athanaton) in Hermeticism.^[1] The various attributes of the subtle body are frequently described in terms of often obscure symbolism: Tantra features references to the sun and moon as well as various Indian rivers and deities, while Taoist alchemy speaks of cauldrons and cinnabar fields.

 

So Buddhism isn't the only one with a 'rainbow body' or 'light body'.

 

So let's begin.. Here is a recount of the light body (if you want to call it that). The hindus, are very familiar with it. There are all kinds of stories, and this one is from Yogananda Paramhansa Yogi:

“Why, that man, Swami Pranabananda, has not left my sight a moment since I first came about an hour ago.” I blurted out the whole story.

 

His eyes opened widely. “Are we living in this material age, or are we dreaming? I never expected to witness such a miracle in my life! I thought this swami was just an ordinary man, and now I find he can materialize an extra body and work through it!” Together we entered the saint’s room.

 

“Look, those are the very sandals he was wearing at the ghat ,” Kedar Nath Babu whispered. “He was clad only in a loincloth, just as I see him now.”

 

As the visitor bowed before him, the saint turned to me with a quizzical smile.

 

“Why are you stupefied at all this? The subtle unity of the phenomenal world is not hidden from true yogis. I instantly see and converse with my disciples in distant Calcutta. They can similarly transcend at will every obstacle of gross matter.” It was probably in an effort to stir spiritual ardor in my young breast that the swami had condescended to tell me of his powers of astral radio and television. But instead of enthusiasm, I experienced only an awe-stricken fear. Inasmuch as I was destined to undertake my divine search through one particular guru-Sri Yukteswar, whom I had not yet met-I felt no inclination to accept Pranabananda as my teacher. I glanced at him doubtfully, wondering if it were he or his counterpart before me. The master sought to banish my disquietude by bestowing a soul- awakening gaze, and by some inspiring words about his guru.

 

“Lahiri Mahasaya was the greatest yogi I ever knew. He was Divinity Itself in the form of flesh.” If a disciple, I reflected, could materialize an extra fleshly form at will, what miracles indeed could be barred to his master?

 

Yogananda, Paramhansa (2013-05-20). Autobiography of a Yogi: (With Pictures) (Kindle Locations 496-514). . Kindle Edition.

 

And here, he says this:

 

I fetched a broom; Master, I knew, was teaching me the secret of balanced living. The soul must stretch over the cosmogonic abysses, while the body performs its daily duties. When we set out later for a stroll, I was still entranced in unspeakable rapture. I saw our bodies as two astral pictures, moving over a road by the river whose essence was sheer light.

 

“It is the Spirit of God that actively sustains every form and force in the universe; yet He is transcendental and aloof in the blissful uncreated void beyond the worlds of vibratory phenomena,” Master explained. “Saints who realize their divinity even while in the flesh know a similar twofold existence. Conscientiously engaging in earthly work, they yet remain immersed in an inward beatitude. The Lord has created all men from the limitless joy of His being. Though they are painfully cramped by the body, God nevertheless expects that souls made in His image shall ultimately rise above all sense identifications and reunite with Him.”

 

Yogananda, Paramhansa (2013-05-20). Autobiography of a Yogi: (With Pictures) (Kindle Locations 2711-2719). . Kindle Edition.

 

Next, moving right along...

 

Dissolving legs.. ? Gee, Kan San can dissolve his whole body, and there are pictures too! Kunlun.

 

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.131731546897753.24177.131724956898412&type=3

 

These pictures were taken after Max showed Kan-san a new method. Here, Kan-san is activating the "Golden Dragon Body", which is the highest attainment in the KUNLUN NEI GUNG system. It is similar to the "Returnable Rainbow Body" in Tibetan Tradition

 

Do you think they are lying? Do you still think that your argument is even valid?

 

Thousands of people see Jesus every day. Do you think he is making the trek with his physical body? Gee, it must be ragged and torn up by now.. maybe he should take a helicopter or something, to protect his physical body..

 

Actually, this is kind of a waste of time. It seems that each religion/non-religion has their own rendition of the same phenomenon. Even taoists. I don't have to prove that, just expand your knowledge base a little and you will come to the same realization.

 

[rene]

.

Edited August 15, 2013 by rene

[RongzomFan]

Dudjom Lingpa had 12 or so disciples that went rainbow body.

 

Feel free to laugh and dismiss.

[RongzomFan]

I see Dudjom Rinpoche sitting around a table with Laozi, Ramana Maharshi, Anthony Demello, Isaac the Blind, and Uwais al Qarani.

 

Absolutely not.

[RongzomFan]

Holy things like rainbow body are lost on Mara people. Don't expect me to talk about rainbow body again.

Edited August 14, 2013 by alwayson

[RongzomFan]

Yogananda Paramhansa Yogi:

 

I don't believe anything Yogananda has to say. Most Hindus never heard of him.

 

The famous saint in India is Ramakrishna.

[3bob]

I 2nd that

[steve]

Don't expect me to talk about rainbow body again.

I appreciate that.

The way you use it to claim some sort of spiritual superiority both cheapens and desecrates what is truly holy to some.

[steve]

Absolutely not.

I don't think you'd be invited.

Hopefully that will change some day.

[RongzomFan]

I don't think you'd be invited.

Hopefully that will change some day.

 

To this imaginary meeting in your own mind?

[RongzomFan]

I appreciate that.

The way you use it to claim some sort of spiritual superiority both cheapens and desecrates what is truly holy to some.

 

Yet you compared it to anime

[RongzomFan]

I didn't say that all paths are one, did I?

 

Yes

 

And yet, in truth they are.

[RongzomFan]

Alwayson -

Transmission may be permission to study but it can and will be revoked if one treats other people as you do.

 

Perhaps it already has...

 

Comments of Mara

[RongzomFan]

I see Dudjom Rinpoche sitting around a table with Laozi, Ramana Maharshi, Anthony Demello, Isaac the Blind, and Uwais al Qarani.

 

And you are at the head of the table right?

[RongzomFan]

Only if we let him.

 

Cognitive dissonance on both your parts?

 

Steve compares rainbow body to anime:

 

Sounds a bit like anime to me...

 

Maras everywhere

Edited August 14, 2013 by alwayson

[Tibetan_Ice]

I don't believe anything Yogananda has to say. Most Hindus never heard of him.

 

The famous saint in India is Ramakrishna.

 

And you speak for most Hindus?

 

Ok, here is a bit about the Golden Body from Raja Yoga:

from "Merging With Shiva"

 

http://ebooks.gutenberg.us/HimalayanAcademy/SacredHinduLiterature/mws/mws_ch-48.html

 

Sunday

LESSON 336

Birth of the Golden Body

The golden body, svarnasharira, is a body made of golden light. After many experiences of Parasiva, it gradually descends from the seven chakras above the sahasrara into the ajna chakra, which then becomes the soul's muladhara, then down into the vishuddha chakra, which then becomes its muladhara, and then down into the anahata, which then becomes its muladhara.

All seven chakras above the sahasrara slowly come down and down and down until the entire astral body is psychically seen, by mystics who have this sight, as a golden body. The astral body slowly, slowly, slowly dissolves into the golden body. That is what I have seen happen. That is what our parampara and our sampradaya know from experience. Experience is the only true knowing -- a knowing that can be verified in books, through others who have the same knowing, but a knowing that no others know who have not had the same experience. To them it is only a concept, a nice one maybe, but just a concept or written off as an opinion.

When the golden body fully enters the physical, having taken over the astral, the knowing that is known comes unbidden. It is beyond reason but does not conflict with it. It is a living scripture but does not conflict with those written by seers of the past who have seen and their records have become scripture. So great is the Sanatana Dharma that it defies all who doubt it, all who disdain it, all who disregard it, all who degrade it, with personal realization of its Truth.

This golden body, which begins to build into a golden body after the experience of nirvikalpa samadhi, is connected to the sahasrara chakra. In other words, the sahasrara chakra is the home base in the physical body for the golden body. There are twelve basic unfoldments to this chakra as the golden body grows. When the realized sannyasin travels in high states of contemplation, he moves freely in his golden body and can help and serve mankind. Over time, he gains a conscious control of the sahasrara chakra as a force center which propels him into inner space.

It is this golden body, as it refines and refines and refines itself within the Sivaloka after moksha, that finally merges with Siva like a cup of water being poured into the ocean. That same water can never be found and put back into the cup. This truly is svarnasharira vishvagrasa, the final, final, final merging with Siva.

 

 

And, here is Ramana's recount of his rainbow body:

http://www.mountainrunnerdoc.com/articles/article/2291157/130847.htm

 

Even Ramana Maharshi admitted such a possibility as the rainbow body when he said that, inasmuch as the body is a condensed form of mind, when the mind resolved into the Self, the body might itself do likewise.

 

Indeed, a similar phenomenon occured to Ramana:

 

"On several occasions Sri Bhagavan had had an unusual experience in which his body would disappear in a flash and disperse into its component atoms. A little later a smoke-like form would appear and the atoms would come together in a form that resembled particles of mist. Finally, the body would reappear in its normal form. Sri Bhagavan used to have this experience whenever he remained in the same position for a long time or when his body got emaciated because he was not taking enough food. This state, in which the body disintegrates into atoms and merges with the five elements, is known as 'pranava body'." (4)

 

 

So there.

 

TI

[steve]

Yet you compared it to anime

No, you misunderstand me - the way you throw a beautiful and rare miracle around as if it were a superpower and as if Dudjom Lingpa were a super hero, that reminded me of anime. I'm pointing out your infatuation with and grasping at superpowers.

 

 

And you are at the head of the table right?

 

 

I'd just be a fly on the wall... it's my fantasy, after all!

[manitou]

I think the reason we're getting stuck in this circle is because it's all maya. To describe the ineffable cannot be done. There aren't a lot of different 'gods' at the end of everyone's path floating around out there. There is only one, and its name is Awareness.

 

I also think that the ineffable cannot be spoken of. But it can be lived and shine through our words and actions. The one who places himself atop all others needs a considerable amount of inner work on ego.

[RongzomFan]

The one who places himself atop all others needs a considerable amount of inner work on ego.

 

As is common knowledge, Vajrayana practitioners are not supposed to befriend "ordinary people."

 

"Sign that the demons that have entered us are that....we keep the company of ordinary people" - Dudjom Rinpoche

 

I see great wisdom in this now.

[Tibetan_Ice]

As is common knowledge, Vajrayana practitioners are not supposed to befriend "ordinary people."

 

"Sign that the demons that have entered us are that....we keep the company of ordinary people" - Dudjom Rinpoche

 

I see great wisdom in this now.

 

Alwaysoff,

What is the reference for that quote from Dudjom Rinpoche? I could not find those exact words. Are you making this up?

 

Do you think Dudjom Rinpoche met lots of 'ordinary people' when he was erroneously put in prison?

 

Are you saying that you now have demons from associating with these 'ordinary people' here? LOL I thought it was the other way around..

 

Gee, it's so hard to tell if someone is possessed by a demon or evil spirit.. I mean, even the Sakya and Gelug traditions couldn't tell that they had been worshipping an evil spirit for the past 300 years..

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorje_Shugden_Controversy

The Dalai Lama stated during a Buddhist Tantric initiation that Shugden was 'an evil spirit' whose actions were detrimental to the 'cause of Tibet'

 

Now, I realize that this topic is highly controversial, and I don't take sides because I don't know much about it, but it does serve as an example of the difficulty of determining whether you are worshipping the real thing or an evil demon, let alone declare that ordinary people cause demon possession.

 

So, once again, you surpass my wildest expectations with your arrogancy and pomp. Such entertainment!

 

 

 

PS. On another note, demons sometimes are referred to personal traits that propagate the hinderences, as I've seen Dudjom Rinpoche refer to them as such, but since you failed to distinguish, I see no point in pursuing that angle.

[Jetsun]

Its quite common with the internetbuddhists these days but I don't know how they can't see that trying to turn one select branch of Buddhism such as Dzogchen into a superior elitist path is just another manifestion of ego, it is a highjacking of the Dharma by the ego. Its so obvious its right in your face for everyone to see! Yet they don't see it, such is the power of our minds to fool us I suppose.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Jetsun

[Bubbles]

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[RongzomFan]

What is the reference for that quote from Dudjom Rinpoche?

 

A Torch Lighting the Way to Freedom:

 

"Signs that the demons have entered us are that we find fault in the spiritual friend, our teacher; we see defects in Dharma practitioners in general; we keep the company of ordinary people; we have less diligence in the practice; we indulge in pleasure heedlessly, without any moral principles; and our devotion and respect for the Three Jewels fades."

 

"we should think: “I have entered the sublime Dharma and am undertaking the training of a Bodhisattva, so I must never be like ordinary people.”"

 

"Remind yourself of the defects of the pleasures of the senses, and avoid befriending ordinary people."

 

 

Its quite common with the internetbuddhists these days but I don't know how they can't see that trying to turn one select branch of Buddhism such as Dzogchen into a superior elitist path is just another manifestion of ego, it is a highjacking of the Dharma by the ego.

 

Nope, its just normative Nyingma view.

 

"The eight lower levels have intellectually fabricated and contrived

that which is changeless solely due to fleeting thoughts that

never experience what truly is. They apply antidotes to and reject

that which is not to be rejected. They refer to as flawed that in

which there is nothing to be purified, with a mind that desires

purification. They have created division with respect to that

which cannot be obtained by their hopes and fears that it can be

obtained elsewhere. And they have obscured wisdom, which is

naturally present, by their efforts in respect to that which is free

from effort and free from needing to be accomplished. Therefore,

they have had no chance to make contact with genuine, ultimate

reality as it is (rnal ma’i de kho na nyid)." - Wisdom Nectar, p30-31

Edited August 15, 2013 by alwayson