Is violence justified

[Aaron]

So yesterday, for the first time in over eight years, I hit someone. The story goes like this, at the job I've been working at, there is a young man who has some martial arts training that constantly wants to fool around by hitting me or putting me in wrist locks, etc. I told him I boxed for awhile back in the day and apparently he wants to prove that martial arts is superior to boxing by trying to provoke a reaction.

 

Yesterday he kept punching me and I finally told him that he better stop or I'd hit him back. My comment must have pissed him off, because he hit me on the forearm as hard as he could and left a huge bruise, about 2 inches round, I reacted by punching him in the face and laying him out flat on the ground.

 

I'm not telling you this to present myself as a bad ass, because I'm not a bad ass. I have no martial arts training at all, again I boxed for about a year when I was younger, but otherwise nothing. I guess why I'm telling you this is that I realized that I am capable of violence, even though I thought I had passed beyond that need. My response wasn't so much out of a fear of death, but just plain old frustration. I had dealt with this kid's antics for around three months and I finally got tired of it. I feel a bit bad about hitting him, because I didn't mean to give him a black eye, but at the same time I feel justified in my actions.

 

Anyways I thought it might be a good topic for the thread, is violence justified and if so, when is it justified.

 

Aaron

Edited July 7, 2012 by Twinner

[Sloppy Zhang]

I'm not telling you this to present myself as a bad ass, because I'm not a bad ass.

 

Fuck that shit man, you're a badass, you laid him out!

 

I have no martial arts training at all, again I boxed for about a year when I was younger

 

What exactly is your definition of martial arts? Because let me tell you, you used some martial arts on someone.

 

 

Here's my experience with violence:

 

Some people only understand violence. Some people push, and the more you step back, the more they push, just because they can. Some people won't stop until they ARE stopped.

 

Sometimes it is a matter of actual "violence", in which they want to HURT you. And the only way they stop is if they know they're going to get HURT. That's when things get tricky because, well, that's how gang violence starts, and that's how people get killed.

 

Sometimes it's a matter of "respect". They just want to know that you can act because they feel that, hey, as a man, you should be able to act. Sometimes it's not even a matter of winning or losing, just a matter of whether you're "man" enough to compete.

 

 

I'd say that you pretty much exceeded the respect category!

 

Just hope he doesn't come back and stab you... you should probably take a gun to work, just in case...

[thelerner]

If you were a saint I'd have to chide you. But you're human, he provoked multiple times; in my book you acted appropriately.

 

Next, take your cue from his reactions. If he follows true to the bully/ape way, he'll be cowed, stop bothering you and act like it never happened, which is good. If he doesn't mention it, maybe you shouldn't either.

 

Otherwise be honest with the kid; try to stay away from anger and accusations, but tell him your side. In honesty there is strength.

[Marblehead]

In honesty there is strength.

I like that.

 

And I agree with what has already been said. Sometimes it requires violence to stop acts of aggression.

[steve]

I'm sorry he pushed you that far, Aaron.

It's unfortunate when we have to resort to violence but there are times when it's very difficult to avoid it.

I don't fault you for your action.

It doesn't sound like he gave you much choice.

[Aaron]

Thanks for the responses. I guess I've felt a bit hypocritical because I always tell people to do no harm to others or themselves, and here I went and lashed out. I'm not sure if I needed to lash out, but there was something that snapped inside me and I just hit him. I don't remember intending to hit him hard enough to knock him down, but I have thirty-five pounds on him, at most he's about 175 lbs and I'm 210 lbs. (That's why I say I'm not a bad ass, just big.) In the future I think I'll have to be more proactive with these types of things, set down the line early on, not let it get to the point that I have to resort to hurting someone.

 

I don't really feel unjustified, though I'm sure a monk would tell me there is no such thing as justified violence, but at the same time, when you're poked over and over there is a point where you just can't take getting poked one more time and I reached that point. Again, I think I'll try and stop it at the first poke next time, rather than let things get out of hand.

 

I still stand by the idea that the best thing to do is cause no harm to others and yourself, but it's also important to keep in mind that doesn't mean you allow others to harm you in the process.

 

Aaron

Edited July 8, 2012 by Twinner

[Aaron]

Fuck that shit man, you're a badass, you laid him out!

 

 

 

What exactly is your definition of martial arts? Because let me tell you, you used some martial arts on someone.

 

 

Here's my experience with violence:

 

Some people only understand violence. Some people push, and the more you step back, the more they push, just because they can. Some people won't stop until they ARE stopped.

 

Sometimes it is a matter of actual "violence", in which they want to HURT you. And the only way they stop is if they know they're going to get HURT. That's when things get tricky because, well, that's how gang violence starts, and that's how people get killed.

 

Sometimes it's a matter of "respect". They just want to know that you can act because they feel that, hey, as a man, you should be able to act. Sometimes it's not even a matter of winning or losing, just a matter of whether you're "man" enough to compete.

 

 

I'd say that you pretty much exceeded the respect category!

 

Just hope he doesn't come back and stab you... you should probably take a gun to work, just in case...

 

He called me this morning to make sure we were still buddies, so I'm not worried about him retaliating. He's not really the gangbanger type, just young (19) and because I was 42 and passive, I think he thought I'd just back down. I told him we're cool and we chatted a bit, so I think things will be fine.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

If you were a saint I'd have to chide you. But you're human, he provoked multiple times; in my book you acted appropriately.

 

Next, take your cue from his reactions. If he follows true to the bully/ape way, he'll be cowed, stop bothering you and act like it never happened, which is good. If he doesn't mention it, maybe you shouldn't either.

 

Otherwise be honest with the kid; try to stay away from anger and accusations, but tell him your side. In honesty there is strength.

 

We talked already, so I think things will be fine. I worry more about him than I do me.

 

Aaron

[Sloppy Zhang]

There is yielding, and there is compromise.

 

My first martial art was karate. Very hard, very rigid.

 

I visited a friend's Wing Chun school one day. The teacher told me to hold my arm at an angle to deflect blows, and to relax it, because in Wing Chun you don't get all tensed like karate people tend to be.

 

So he threw a bunch, it hit my arm, and my arm flew back and hit me in the face

 

The teacher said to me "relaxed, not limp."

 

It's a principle that's also in the internal martial arts. You want to be relaxed, supple, but not limp and flopping around.

 

Everyone hears the saying "the tree that bends does not break." Right. Well the tree bends. But the tree also has its own internal structure that keeps it upright.

 

You may yield, but in yielding you should never compromise your own "structure."

 

The problem that I see many people make when they start to apply their philosophy of yielding is they compromise themselves over and over.

 

Someone pushes them? They move back. Someone shoves them? They move back. Someone takes their cookie? They let them. Someone punches them? They turn the other cheek.

 

This just gives the bully another victim, and the bully doesn't care. This leads the person to repeatedly become victimized, and here they are thinking they're being all saintly and monk like.

 

I don't think there's anything respectable about that, and I don't think that's the "way." And if it is, it's a pretty shitty "way" that basically teaches you to get ass raped by a bully and just let it happen.

 

You've got to establish your boundaries. And you've got to show people that you're flexible, but you aren't going to compromise themselves. You'll bend but you'll never fold.

 

If you're around a guy who's like this:

constantly wants to fool around by hitting me or putting me in wrist locks, etc

 

It's pretty easy to "fool around" back. Don't just stand there and take it. Laugh and move and shove back and show him you're as fun a guy as anyone else, you'll play around, but you aren't going to let him get a hold on you, that you aren't going to just stand there like a punching bag and get hit.

 

Maybe learn some grappling, and learn a couple of good Judo throws. A guy comes around and puts his hands on you, tries to put you in a wristlock (hard to do if the other person sees it coming/you don't have a good set up), toss him to the ground.

 

And laugh when you do it and help him up and be like "oh haha, sorry man, must have tripped...."

Edited July 8, 2012 by Sloppy Zhang

[konchog uma]

lol sounds justified to me

[dawei]

Hey Twinner... so your ready for MMA now?

 

Your fetish is worrisome aspects of daoist action in life. How they play out and questioning their motive... this is really respectable about you. As an aside, I miss our getting together. Let's re-connect.

 

I think the only thing you could of done is to do it MMA style... Drop him to the ground and look him in the eye and say, "this is going to hurt me more than it is going to hurt you...". A little cliche but in fact this is the truth...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Sloppy made a very good point about internal structure. Even the water trigram is explained in this way, being flexible without loosing its essence. Don't forget that water must be respected as it will always be water and even a little can do a lot of damage. Sometimes we get small reminders of this which may prevent some of the more serious disasters that can happen when we fail to respect the nature of water. Expect it to be any different and it will quickly correct you.

 

As a side note, please be careful. There has been a record number of water related tragedies in Quebec this year, already, as of early June

[Brian]

He called me this morning to make sure we were still buddies, so I'm not worried about him retaliating. He's not really the gangbanger type, just young (19) and because I was 42 and passive, I think he thought I'd just back down. I told him we're cool and we chatted a bit, so I think things will be fine.

 

Aaron

 

 

Sometimes people need something to get their attention. You got his attention.

 

Now that you've got his attention and begrudging respect, for the moment, what are you going to do with it?

[Seth Ananda]

Aaron's attitude correctional facility is in full swing!

 

Knockin out fools, keepin the streets clean!

 

Respek!

 

 

Having grown up with violence, I have seen its destructive power, But I also got to see plenty of examples where it helped {knock} someone down off their high horse. Situations where nothing but violence would could have brought about a necessary change. Your story reminds me of footage of a Lion, where its cubs are at it and at it, and when they go to far, then Whap! No lasting damage, but respect has been instilled. lol.

[Aaron]

Hey Twinner... so your ready for MMA now?

 

Your fetish is worrisome aspects of daoist action in life. How they play out and questioning their motive... this is really respectable about you. As an aside, I miss our getting together. Let's re-connect.

 

I think the only thing you could of done is to do it MMA style... Drop him to the ground and look him in the eye and say, "this is going to hurt me more than it is going to hurt you...". A little cliche but in fact this is the truth...

 

Hey Dawei,

 

I'll shoot you an email tomorrow. I don't live in Orlando anymore, but I do plan on coming back for a few days in August, maybe we can hook up then.

 

Aaron

Edited July 9, 2012 by Twinner

[Everything]

Justification is violent

[Stosh]

I figure you posted about it for three possible reasons

Youre proud of knocking him down

Youre ashamed over it

Youre not sure how it fits with your philosophical Taoism

 

Justification is subjective , I dont know the circumstances,

and you couldnt explain them thorough enough ,with enough lack of bias

that I can judge your behavior accurately.

 

The eternal Tao , the big one , the one that laughs at us

doesnt give a hoot one way or another

You just have to live with the consequences hoping you chose correctly.

Which includes how you see yourself,

and how you will relate to folks going forward,

are you more at peace etc ?.

 

Most folks find it rather easy to be nice to the nice

and find it difficult to work things out with someone being obnoxious

At the first sign of trouble they dive for the gutter

and drink a bellyful of filthy water.. claiming they are 'justified'

and then sometimes they let it build a bit first

and THEN they say they are justified.

It doesnt say much in favor of your personal convictions

What does say something about our personal convictions is

what we do when we have options.

 

But then again

The eternal Tao laughs at all of us

while we write our stories.

Stosh

Edited July 9, 2012 by Stosh

[thelerner]

 

The eternal Tao , the big one , the one that laughs at us

doesnt give a hoot one way or another

You just have to live with the consequences hoping you chose correctly.

Stosh

I like this.

[Mokona]

Yesterday he kept punching me and I finally told him that he better stop or I'd hit him back. My comment must have pissed him off, because he hit me on the forearm as hard as he could and left a huge bruise, about 2 inches round, I reacted by punching him in the face and laying him out flat on the ground.

 

Aaron

If you won't protect yourself, someone will have to do it for you. If no one will protect you, for you - then you die.

 

Yes, if you don't defend yourself - you get bullied, beaten or worse. I feel that at times violence is justified, but now-a-days so much legal is involved in protecting ones self.

 

I'm glad you knocked that idiot out.

[Birch]

Yep, good for you Aaron, standing up for yourself.

I don't know about generalities as far as justifying anything goes but this situation sounds right to me.

 

---opinion etc--

[Harmonious Emptiness]

It sounds like you also gave him exactly what he was literally asking for, on top of everything else. It's not like you tried to injure him afterwards. He wants to know what boxing's like - this is what boxing's like: You get punched in the face. Fun hey?

[ChiDragon]

Anyways I thought it might be a good topic for the thread, is violence justified and if so, when is it justified.

 

Aaron

 

'Violence' was not the right word to be asked for justification. Is your action justifiable was in question....!!!

[Aaron]

I figure you posted about it for three possible reasons

Youre proud of knocking him down

Youre ashamed over it

Youre not sure how it fits with your philosophical Taoism

 

Justification is subjective , I dont know the circumstances,

and you couldnt explain them thorough enough ,with enough lack of bias

that I can judge your behavior accurately.

 

The eternal Tao , the big one , the one that laughs at us

doesnt give a hoot one way or another

You just have to live with the consequences hoping you chose correctly.

Which includes how you see yourself,

and how you will relate to folks going forward,

are you more at peace etc ?.

 

Most folks find it rather easy to be nice to the nice

and find it difficult to work things out with someone being obnoxious

At the first sign of trouble they dive for the gutter

and drink a bellyful of filthy water.. claiming they are 'justified'

and then sometimes they let it build a bit first

and THEN they say they are justified.

It doesnt say much in favor of your personal convictions

What does say something about our personal convictions is

what we do when we have options.

 

But then again

The eternal Tao laughs at all of us

while we write our stories.

Stosh

 

Okay so this is what I call "Lazy Taoism". The Eternal Tao can't be defined as big, nor can it be defined as having any kind of reaction towards us, because it is beyond description. So how can the "Big Tao" laugh?

 

I meet a lot of people that believe Taoism allows you to do whatever you want, even though half the book is dedicated towards the principles of virtue. I'm not one of those people. I believe that the Tao Teh Ching encourages us to live virtuous lives so that we can live in harmony with those around us and through this connection to others we can achieve a reconnection to Higher Virtue.

 

Stosh, I've said this before and I'll say it again, you've got a skewed understanding of Taoism, one that has a bit too much new age stuff in the mix imo. I'd recommend reading the Tao Teh Ching and studying it so you can get a better understanding of what it says. Most of what you say isn't actually Taoist, but more along the lines of Wayne Dwyer pseudo-Taoism and psycho-self help guruism.

 

With that in mind, there are numerous passages within the Tao Teh Ching that tell us to avoid violence, but none that say that we can't defend ourselves when others are violent. I tend to take the platform that Lao Tzu encouraged others to walk away or avoid conflict unless it can't be avoided or puts others in danger. Also keep in mind that the Eternal Tao is undefinable, so trying to attribute human qualities and emotions to it is a bit absurd. What I'm saying is that you can't really say that the Eternal Tao laughs at us, because you really can't even define it. Once you start defining it, that's not the eternal Tao. Get it? I know it gets complicated because we like to talk about it a lot, just remember the problem starts when we try to define the characteristics of the Eternal Tao, because it can't be done.

 

Also my question regarding justification was directed more at the Buddhist and Hinduist than it was the Taoist. I think that the underlying negativity you present in your replies to me might be something you might want to examine. You seem to have a bit of repressed, or perhaps unrepressed, anger towards me. If so you might want to diminish this desire to harm me verbally and look at how you can live more in harmony with me.

 

Aaron

Edited July 10, 2012 by Twinner

[chi 2012]

Me personally, I would be extra alert at work for the next couple of months - watch out for the cheap shot.

[konchog uma]

Also my question regarding justification was directed more at the Buddhist and Hinduist than it was the Taoist.

 

I wondered, since taoists are (monastically speaking) a notorious bunch of martial artists.

 

I think the important thing is, did you lose control? Did you emotions get the best of you? Or was it an act of will, carried out in a state of equanimity? or something in between.

 

I personally see losing control in a violent way as pretty poor behavior, but sometimes, as seth and others mention, people need a beating, especially if its administered with an intentin that is for their own benefit.