Censorship in the pain thread...

[Aaron]

I dropped by the "Pain" thread, which had been renamed the "........................" and found that many of the posts had been removed, even though the comments didn't violate the terms of service or insult policy. I was wondering why this happened and if anyone can give me a straight answer about it. I feel as if this was edited so as to remove evidence of how some of the people involved were behaving. I wont name names (edit- I did later on), but apparently the "master" got his way and the thread was rewritten as he wanted. This is something I'd expect from the tea room, but not here. I think it's a dark specter on the horizon. Not good if this is a sign of things to come. Can we actually disagree with the powers that be here anymore?

 

Aaron

 

edit- All evidence of Ya Mu's childish actions, renaming the thread, something I didn't think you could do without mod approval, his reactionary comments to me, and anything that called into question medicinal qigong seems absent, or maybe I wasn't looking close enough. This really surprised me, as I thought this was one of the last bastions of freedom of speech in the Tao arena... the other sites on the web are notorious for modifying their rules on the fly, but here there always seemed to be a sense of freedom. I guess that's become a thing of the past.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Twinner

[C T]

Funny thing is that the original name has been reinstated!!

 

Seems comical, dont you think? I suppose having a couple of mods in one's corner does accord for some jingly perks!

 

And we are told mods are meant to be unbiased and equanimous. I know one or two who are most upright and objective in their role, but there are also one or two who are a bit dubious... perhaps out for personal gains. Its fairly obvious when mods openly show support towards this guy Ya Mu, to the point of attempting, simultaneously, to undermine some other poster's integrity, which i find to be quite unsavory.

 

Just thought i'd lend a very small voice here.

[Owledge]

(EDIT/CORRECTION)For informative purposes:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/23169-pain-killer-sales-soar-why-not-try-medical-qigong

(Ya Mu said he and others reported me to the mods. He called me a stalker and my writings potentially dangerous.)

Unlike Ya Mu, I take full responsibility for my contribution to the crisis and the consequences of moderator action. I voiced my disapproval though.

 

Unfortunately, the moderator remained anonymous. I don't know who I was dealing with.

 

The following is just an explanation of my viewpoint, so I hope the moderators can accept to keep this thread, since it is about what happened and thus not off topic. I am merely stating my personal viewpoint - like I did in said threads, which some people apparently take as personal attacks.

 

The whole dispute was, from my viewpoint, about Ya Mu not wanting to take responsibility for his actions, namely posting with an agenda of he vs. adverse forces preventing him from spreading medical qi gong in the speed that he desires. I tried a lot to point out how this is unhealthy and how with that mindset he will only get into trouble. You know, manifesting outer stuff that reflects the inner state. I started very gently and kindly, actually voicing understanding, but that was called passive-aggressive by him.

Also, his claims about being on a level of consciousness that I simply cannot understand were not sound. He said he energetically led the discussion so that Twinner would behave properly, when from what I've read, Twinner seemed a lot more relaxed and reasonable than Ya Mu. Furthermore, then why was Ya Mu so extremely unskillful in leading me energetically? My standpoint is that when someone loses his composure, it is not healthy; there is an emotional vulnerability that should be overcome.

My suggestions were met with complete and offensive denial and Ya Mu used a lot of preconceptions and stereotypes, potentially insulting whole groups of people in the process, and made a lot of assumptions about me, while reacting upset about any comment about his behavior.

 

To sum it up, I tried to show Ya Mu an imbalance between abilities and character. I pointed at the moon and he fought my finger.

I mean, he's a teacher of an energetic healing system, supposedly approaching problems from a veeeery high level. Where was his skillfulness there? When is character refinement taught in that system?

 

I stated to the moderator that I thought lively discourse on a personal level is part of the spiritual quest - that gives the forum depth and enriches it as a tool for the spiritual seeker, and that shying away from a dispute and 'calling the authorities' is disempowering the person doing it and the forum.

There is a difference between malevolent behavior for the sake of it and well-intentioned behavior that causes an aggressive reaction.

 

There were so many more or less basic spiritual lessons in the the whole dispute and Ya Mu chose to completely disregard the opportunity to overcome his super-sensitivity. Because funnily all I did was pointing at the very behavior that was evidenced by what he wrote, and he countered with freaking out even more. Eventually I thought he had realized what he did and really looked at himself, but it turned out it was another smokescreen - for himself in a way.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Owledge

[Ya Mu]

Yes we certainly know that you folks do not personally like me. That is no reason to come on a forum with personal attacks. Just like you are doing here.

CT - We already know you got pissed off at me in another thread where you added personal insults so you wanted to take another shot at me here. Bang!

 

Twinner - You have repeatedly made personal attacks against me because you too don't like me. If your desire here starting this thread to the mods was only wanting an answer to a question it would not contain your words of personal character attack. So we do know your intentions here, which wasn't really a question to the mods at all. You also came back on the pain thread and resumed your insults. When will this behavior stop?

 

And if you wished to learn something you could be instructed on how to edit your own words. But it appears you would rather complain about someone else knowing such a simple thing saying it was special privilege. It is called extremely simple knowledge, not special privilege.

If you read other threads you would have found your question already answered by a mod.

 

Owledge - Stalking me, adding personal insults, and your perceived attempts to practice medicine without a license is what got you in trouble to start with. How about ceasing your personal attacks here and how about ceasing your ill-informed attempts to diagnose and treat mental problems which don't exist in the first place but are a creation of your own mind.

 

Everyone of this forum has a choice between this type of unsociable behavior shown here in this thread or actually contributing to the forum. Just think how great a forum it could be if it was useful information rather than personal attacks here.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Ya Mu

[Aaron]

Yes we certainly know that you folks do not personally like me. That is no reason to come on a forum with personal attacks. Just like you are doing here...

 

Twinner - You have repeatedly made personal attacks against me because you too don't like me. If your desire here starting this thread to the mods was only wanting an answer to a question it would not contain your words of personal character attack. So we do know your intentions here, which wasn't really a question to the mods at all. You also came back on the pain thread and resumed your insults. When will this behavior stop?

 

And if you wished to learn something you could be instructed on how to edit your own words. But it appears you would rather complain about someone else knowing such a simple thing saying it was special privilege. It is called extremely simple knowledge, not special privilege.

If you read other threads you would have found your question already answered by a mod...

 

Everyone of this forum has a choice between this type of unsociable behavior shown here in this thread or actually contributing to the forum. Just think how great a forum it could be if it was useful information rather than personal attacks here.

 

I'm not going to comment on what you've said to CT or Owledge, it's not my business, but I will comment in regards to your discussion with me. I have yet to have anyone, aside from you, say that I behaved in a childish manner in the "Pain" thread, yet they have made comments, repeatedly that you've "lost your cool", "freaked out", and the list goes on. You are not special! You deserve no better treatment than anyone else. Yet you've been able to do things other members haven't, like change the title to your thread, delete posts that you didn't like, and defame other people without having to worry about the consequences. You insinuated that I was a troll because I differed in opinion with you.

 

 

I think this is clearly a sign of preferential treatment. I've seen how you've behaved in the past, lest we forget what's happened to other members that have disagreed with you, and I see it happening now as well. You are receiving special treatment from the mod team, that is in direct conflict with the treatment other members receive.

 

Lastly, in my opinion you are not a master, at least you do not present yourself as one. I've met masters before, and they do not speak or behave the way you do. If you want respect from others, you'll need to do more than tell me you've healed someone of pimples from a thousand miles away (that was sarcasm), in order to get it from me.

 

Aaron

Edited April 8, 2012 by Twinner

[C T]

Yes we certainly know that you folks do not personally like me. That is no reason to come on a forum with personal attacks. Just like you are doing here.

CT - We already know you got pissed off at me in another thread where you added personal insults so you wanted to take another shot at me here. Bang!

You seem bent on over-reacting quite often, Ya Mu.

 

What i said here was not motivated by our past exchanges. Having said this, reading of transpirations between Twinner, Owlege and your kind self did make me wonder why you have chosen to be predictable in your responses towards those who call into account some of your claims. You may not notice how personally you take what your critics direct at you. Instead of reflecting followed by acting from a wiser platform, your retorts are mostly very personal and quite childish at times.

 

Speaking for myself, i have no axe to grind - i am merely expressing my thoughts and also trying to find some reasonable ground to begin to understand how a 'high level master' like yourself could choose to react in set patterns, and not able to show magnanimity and the noblest qualities needed to rise above reactionary modes when you respond to your critics.

 

What you have said here, about me being pissed off, is another instance to substantiate my observation. Furthermore, the fact that i have remained silent till now lends more credence to the fact that i do not bear grudges, especially silly to anyways, with faceless people whom i sometimes choose to interact with over the net.

Edited April 8, 2012 by C T

[Ya Mu]

You seem bent on over-reacting quite often, Ya Mu.

 

What i said here was not motivated by our past exchanges. Having said this, reading of transpirations between Twinner, Owlege and your kind self did make me wonder why you have chosen to be predictable in your responses towards those who call into account some of your claims. You may not notice how personally you take what your critics direct at you. Instead of reflecting followed by acting from a wiser platform, your retorts are mostly very personal and quite childish at times.

 

Speaking for myself, i have no axe to grind - i am merely expressing my thoughts and also trying to find some reasonable ground to begin to understand how a 'high level master' like yourself could choose to react in set patterns, and not able to show magnanimity and the noblest qualities needed to rise above reactionary modes when you respond to your critics.

 

What you have said here, about me being pissed off, is another instance to substantiate my observation. Furthermore, the fact that i have remained silent till now lends more credence to the fact that i do not bear grudges, especially silly to anyways, with faceless people whom i sometimes choose to interact with over the net.

Glad to hear you don't bear grudges. Why you felt you had to add to inflammation in this thread does show a perceived continuance to hold a grudge. Why you actually did is beyond my guess but I don't particularly believe your explanation in the same way as you apparently don't believe mine.

Have a good day!

[Ya Mu]

I'm not going to comment on what you've said to CT or Owledge, it's not my business, but I will comment in regards to your discussion with me. I have yet to have anyone, aside from you, say that I behaved in a childish manner in the "Pain" thread, yet they have made comments, repeatedly that you've "lost your cool", "freaked out", and the list goes on. You are not special! You deserve no better treatment than anyone else. Yet you've been able to do things other members haven't, like change the title to your thread, delete posts that you didn't like, and defame other people without having to worry about the consequences. You insinuated that I was a troll because I differed in opinion with you.

 

 

I think this is clearly a sign of preferential treatment. I've seen how you've behaved in the past, lest we forget what's happened to other members that have disagreed with you, and I see it happening now as well. You are receiving special treatment from the mod team, that is in direct conflict with the treatment other members receive.

 

Lastly, in my opinion you are not a master, at least you do not present yourself as one. I've met masters before, and they do not speak or behave the way you do. If you want respect from others, you'll need to do more than tell me you've healed someone of pimples from a thousand miles away (that was sarcasm), in order to get it from me.

 

Aaron

Again, if you actually wished to know how to edit your own threads you would ask someone instead of accusing me of something that isn't true. It really is easy, and if you asked in a nice manner I am sure someone would explain to you how to do it.

Your other comments are simply an extension of your behavior in another thread and have noting to do with my comments and everything to do with continued behavior and personal dislike for me. I did ask you kindly to stop your personal character attacks and insults. I also did ask you kindly in the other thread to quit intentionally taking it off topic with these continued personal character attacks and insults.

 

I did say something not quite correct above. I said the mods had already answered your question in another thread. The answer was directed to owledge and not to you. It was only my understanding that it answered your question and I believe this is true, but the answer to which I am referring to the best of my knowledge was not directed personally to you. Did you see this answer?

 

edit: And if you wish for this thread to be about a question to the mods keep it that without your personal attacks and I certainly will not attempt to derail your thread. If you keep up your personal attacks I will then choose to say something or not. I do admit that this re-hashing has already gotten quite old and it would certainly be refreshing if this forum continued with relative topic information without the personal attacks.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Ya Mu

[Protector]

When a room is full of deadly gas, instead of going in and trying to pull it out with your hands, let in some clean air

[Ya Mu]

When a room is full of deadly gas, instead of going in and trying to pull it out with your hands, let in some clean air

Did you bring some of this clean air? Good for you.

[Protector]

Did you bring some of this clean air? Good for you.

 

I think I did

I hope no one else suffocated themselves yet

[C T]

Glad to hear you don't bear grudges. Why you felt you had to add to inflammation in this thread does show a perceived continuance to hold a grudge. Why you actually did is beyond my guess but I don't particularly believe your explanation in the same way as you apparently don't believe mine.

Have a good day!

It comes as no surprise your response. The past can be a strong dictator. It even caused you to see more than what is actually there. This sometimes is known as 'self delusion'. Inflammation? Hmm, and you really think you are completely absolved from what you perceive as a situation which has become inflamed? I have not seen anyone directly provoking your responses... you offered them the way you see fit, and one would assume you will take full responsibility for them, instead of alluding to unfounded notions that there are folks here who dislike you and are out to smear your good name. Why would someone even bother to come on a forum and tell some stranger that they are disliked is beyond me.

 

I think i will do the wise thing and cease hereon to respond any further lest i too get branded of being stalker-like as well.

(Although i may change my decision should the need arises).

 

You have a good day too.

[Trunk]

~~~ TTBs Moderation Team ~~~

 

This issue is under review.

 

In the mean time, suggest that everyone go eat chocolate, drink a beer, enjoy local life.

 

- Trunk

 

~~~ Mod Squad out ~~~

[thelerner]

Personally there are teachers and people with decades of learning and real world experience and imo they deserve more slack. On a few occasions the bums have chased them away. They get into arguments with armchair theoreticians and end up getting increasingly frustrated, take off and we lose a person with deep expertise.

 

That may sound elitist, one persons guru is another fraud, but still I think more slack and respect is due teachers here.

[Ya Mu]

It comes as no surprise your response. The past can be a strong dictator. It even caused you to see more than what is actually there. This sometimes is known as 'self delusion'. Inflammation? Hmm, and you really think you are completely absolved from what you perceive as a situation which has become inflamed? I have not seen anyone directly provoking your responses... you offered them the way you see fit, and one would assume you will take full responsibility for them, instead of alluding to unfounded notions that there are folks here who dislike you and are out to smear your good name. Why would someone even bother to come on a forum and tell some stranger that they are disliked is beyond me.

 

I think i will do the wise thing and cease hereon to respond any further lest i too get branded of being stalker-like as well.

(Although i may change my decision should the need arises).

 

You have a good day too.

And so you continue while saying you are not. Funny.

[idiot_stimpy]

What is it inside that is getting upset

[ralis]

I haven't read the thread in question. However, it seems to me that trolling is not being moderated as it should be. Also, paid members seem to be given an inordinate amount of slack. Thus, they are allowed more latitude to troll and disrupt threads.

 

Recently, moderators have reframed threads that are hijacked and disrupted, an 'evolution' of the OP. I disagree!

Edited April 8, 2012 by ralis

[Aaron]

Again, if you actually wished to know how to edit your own threads you would ask someone instead of accusing me of something that isn't true. It really is easy, and if you asked in a nice manner I am sure someone would explain to you how to do it.

Your other comments are simply an extension of your behavior in another thread and have noting to do with my comments and everything to do with continued behavior and personal dislike for me. I did ask you kindly to stop your personal character attacks and insults. I also did ask you kindly in the other thread to quit intentionally taking it off topic with these continued personal character attacks and insults.

 

I did say something not quite correct above. I said the mods had already answered your question in another thread. The answer was directed to owledge and not to you. It was only my understanding that it answered your question and I believe this is true, but the answer to which I am referring to the best of my knowledge was not directed personally to you. Did you see this answer?

 

edit: And if you wish for this thread to be about a question to the mods keep it that without your personal attacks and I certainly will not attempt to derail your thread. If you keep up your personal attacks I will then choose to say something or not. I do admit that this re-hashing has already gotten quite old and it would certainly be refreshing if this forum continued with relative topic information without the personal attacks.

 

Hell Ya Mu,

 

Well I was under the impression you couldn't rename a thread, unless you were a moderator, if that's not true, my apologies. I do however believe you cannot delete someone else's posts unless you are a moderator, so I will assume that a moderator removed my posts, because they were disparaging of you and your practice, even though they did not violate the insult policy, nor were they trolling, rather direct responses to your own questions. My question is why this happened and why it has not happened for other people. Unless a post is in violation of the insult policy or terms of service, I don't think they should be touched just because someone disagreed with them or they hurt someone's feelings.

 

You're not special, but someone apparently thinks you are. Don't let it go to your head though, I'm sure it's just a transient condition.

 

Aaron

Edited April 8, 2012 by Twinner

[Aetherous]

I thought it was the moderator's policy to not delete people's posts, unless they were porn, excessive swearing or something similar.

 

Also thought it was the moderator's policy to consult eachother for a hell of a long time before making moderation decisions.

 

Is it really a good idea to let individual mods make rash decisions that inevitably piss off multiple forum members? Something to look at.

 

Love to all in here.

[Apech]

Just posting as me not as a mod.

 

1. Anyone who starts a thread can go back and edit including the title if they so choose ... just as they can edit their own posts.

 

2. Nothing has been deleted just made temporarily invisible ... sorry for confusion.

 

3. I hope everyone agrees that the discussion about pain was very useful and hopefully will get back on topic.

 

4. I bashed my thumb with a hammer yesterday trying to force the lock a metal door ... ouch ... I am dealing with it without pain killers ... also decided not pursue career option as a petty thief ....

 

I think Keith will get back to you on mod issues.

[Owledge]

What I'm curious about: When someone pays the forum for advertising, is it limited to the ad banner, or does that also allow to advertise in the form of forum threads? And does Ya Mu pay for advertising?

[Moderator team]

1. All posts in the Pain thread are still there. They are just set to invisible at the moment while the issue is being reviewed.

 

2. Paid members are not given higher status over non-paid members.

 

- SereneBlue

[Birch]

Personally there are teachers and people with decades of learning and real world experience and imo they deserve more slack. On a few occasions the bums have chased them away. They get into arguments with armchair theoreticians and end up getting increasingly frustrated, take off and we lose a person with deep expertise.

 

That may sound elitist, one persons guru is another fraud, but still I think more slack and respect is due teachers here.

 

I reckon a lot of it comes from people's own (misguided?) ideas about what 'high-level' people are supposed to be like. I know that TTB's has really changed that for me. And I don't think it's a 'bad' thing.

 

I was saying this to someone else the other day that it probably wouldn't bother them if a really skilled surgeon or racing driver or musician or scientist was a bit of a jerk sometimes, but as soon as we hit 'spiritual' territory, suddenly it's much worse for some reason.

 

I reckon everyone on here ought to get (and give) respect regardless of who they are.

[Aaron]

I just wanted to make a statement that the creation of this thread wasn't meant as a personal attack on The Tao Bums, but rather a "look what's happening here, do we really want to set this precedent?" I think, overall, the mod team is wonderful and makes good decisions the vast majority of the time. I don't want people to use this thread as a "bash the mods" thread, since I don't think that's appropriate, nor is it beneficial to the community as a whole.

 

I had disagreements with Ya Mu, but I try very hard to be objective when I'm commenting on his beliefs and ideas, even though I will sometimes be sarcastic. I don't sense that Ya Mu is a bad person, just that we disagree on things, in particular the notion of pain. I admit that I have things I could apologize for, especially if he thought I was trying to disparage medicinal qigong or traditional Chinese medicine, because I'm not trying to make blanket statements regarding either, but rather that there are certain practices within those fields that I don't believe have been shown to have practical benefits in regards to healing ailments. I'm positive there are cures that do have medicinal value, in fact the use of certain peppers to treat stomach ailments, at least the chemical found within the peppers, actually came from their use in "folk" medicine and TCM. There are aspects that do work, but then again there has never been evidence that rhino horn or tiger penis was a treatment for impotence (thank God for Viagra, huh?).

 

So, I apologize now to anyone who I might've offended, that was not my intent, nor am I trying to say that one should not learn more about or practice TCM or medicinal qigong, if that's what you want to do, or find interesting, more power to you.

 

I think we've had enough incidents where things like this have happened, perhaps not even to the degree that it has here, that we should learn from this and look at it as blessing, because it was only by this happening that we can grow from this and hopefully be aware enough in the future to prevent it from happening again.

 

Aaron

Edited April 8, 2012 by Twinner

[PurpleHeaven]

I wanted to voice my disappointment as someone who only reads on this forum and usually doesnt contribute. It is a real shame to see so many threads getting off topic because different members have to play out their own little mind games. I know how tempting it is to "just" say what you think and that is your right, its just sad that a lot of teachers, who are only human, stop posting here because of that. We might say: look this teacher is getting angry, how can he be a spiritual person. just because we think we know how a spiritual person should behave. I also know how hard it is to find ones own way amidst such powerful teachers as their realizations might intimidate us and in an attempt to find our own way without being influenced we push them away. And I experienced that not in the comfortable position behind my computer screen on an internet forum but in a monastery in the chinese mountains and believe me the monks there were much less forgiving for such an attitude than Michael is here for example. That doesnt mean they hold any power over you, but you might have pissed off a teacher that you could have learnt a lot from and if not you, maybe someone else. And I think the teachers that are still here have a really great tolerance to continue contributing amidst such butting of heads.