Is the only reason not to commit suicide - Fear-based, shame-based, or guilt-based?

[The Way Is Virtue]

People can get into a mental space where their personal view of things can be very limited, closed in, and distorted, and they may really lose sight of how much of this limited viewpoint is actually of their own creation. Everyone goes through ups and downs in life, and pretty well everyone runs into very tough times or difficult situations at some point or points in their life as well. Why is that some people can get through these tough situations or times OK while others just seem to think they can't get through it and they may want to just give up? It is because some people realize that attitude and viewpoint is much more under our personal control than we might think, and they take steps (whether consciously or not) to keep their attitude and viewpoint as postive and open as they can manage, as they also realize that no matter how difficult things may seem to be at any given moment that this will definitely change over time. We can get ourselves into very dark frames of mind if we let ourself and we can also just do our best to let such things go as much as we can manage and adopt a more positive frame of mind with the understanding that things will eventually get better.

 

A person should realize that where they are or where they think they are at some point in time is only temporary and the situation will continue to change. If we do our best to keep a positive and open attitude we start opening ourself up to and becoming more aware of various ways to help change our situation that we may not have been able to see at all when we closed and limited our view, and only focused on this very closed in view that we have made for ourself. No matter how difficult or undesirable things may seem at some point in time, things will not remain stuck there unless we keep ourself so closed to all the actual possibilities and potentials that really exist for us in any given moment. There are always at least some ways to help improve our situation if we stay open to them and at least allow ourself to start considering them and exploring them to see where they might lead.

 

If one looks at the tai chi symbol one can see that the idea being put across is that everything is in a state of constant change and cycling, and no matter how difficult a situation we may think we are in, this will change to better situations if we don't fight the natural change and keep open to all the new possibilities that go along with it. There is unlimited potential in this world and that is why it is so special. The more we explore this potential the more we see that there are so many choices for us to pursue if we are just willing to try, and willing to loosen our control and just see where things may lead...

Best wishes to you...

 

Edit: BTW infinityTruth, regarding the tai chi symbol and its meaning, since we all have the ability to choose and make decisions in this world, we have the abiltiy to make at least some choices that either bring us more towards the positive or more towards the negative in the overall scheme of things. If we stay open to and pursue those possibilities that bring us more towards a positive direction as much as we can then we tend to keep moving more towards positive things over time. If we tend to only limit ourself to a negative view of things we will be more likely to only see negative possibilities for ourself, and we may tend to keep moving more towards the negative or at to least feel stuck in the negative. So keeping our viewpoint and attitude as open and positive as we can opens us up to and allows for much more opportunity to keep moving in a positive direction through all the change and flux and cycles in life. Things may be in a constant state of flux around us but by staying open and focusing on the positive we keep moving forward in a positive direction. We are always changing too, but we do have a lot more choice and control than we may think over whether that change is positive or negative.

Edited July 28, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[InfinityTruth]

 

So, there's a good reason for you to stick with it; because you're growing, and (I think) you're growing fast. Stick with the process, brave the uncomfortable, and I believe you will find a great deal of relief, in the not-too-distant future.

 

 

I like the idea of being dedicated to growth over all else. I had thought about that a while ago. It makes all the negative lose its power. Because anything negative you can grow right out of or change.

[suninmyeyes]

What would you really love to do?What would really open your heart and make you feel good?There must be something.

Find out and work towards achieving it.

IMO pot is not such a good companion if you suffer from depressive states,it messes with your mind.

Joining some volountary organisation and helping out or travelling to a third world country or doing something what you dont usually do could be a good way to help yourself as it would break the pattern and give a fresh perspective on life.

Edited July 30, 2011 by suninmyeyes

[Otis]

I like the idea of being dedicated to growth over all else. I had thought about that a while ago. It makes all the negative lose its power. Because anything negative you can grow right out of or change.

Yes, that's how I feel.

 

Life is not always fun or easy for me, but I love the feeling that I'm in training. Not for something in particular, just training to be greater. Becoming lighter, becoming more generous, more loving, more open, more accepting, more willing to help, etc., etc.

 

Where I am right now is never wrong. It's just an accident of where I've been thus far. What is useful from the past, is the practice it has given me, and what is useful right now, is always trying to do my best, including my best at accepting who and where I am, right now.

 

And likewise, of course, I try not to see the outside world (or parts of it, like people) as the enemy. They are not what's against me. They are merely the path of life, that I have to learn to be balanced and clear upon. My resistance to, and discomfort with events and people defines the path of growth, that I still have yet to do. Practice is the act of doing my best, while not taking offense, when life and I bump into each other.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I suggest checking out this website that explains the role of the 5 elemental spirits to our spiritual/mental health:

 

http://fivespirits.com/hun.php

 

It has some good pointers to note as to whether there are certain things that we can do to reinvigorate our lives and our spirits.

 

When I was 13 I had a martial arts teacher who often said that the most important thing was "to have endeavor." Now, this was a bit of a language issue, since endeavor is not like an emotion that you have, but we say "She endeavors to do this.." Still, the way he put it speaks well to the five spirit health reality. When our spirit is weakened, we lose that "endeavor", and that is one of the most central and basic foundations to the spiritual health of an individual especially in traditional shamanic cultures. Most people in western culture overlook the power that they have over people, because it is so easy to destroy this spirit in people and to LOSE this spirit to other people. To be able to bring that spirit into someone is one of the greatest healing functions a laymen, shaman, or anyone can have. Music is a powerful tool in this way. So are sports, exercise, and everything that breaks down barriers put there by others, put there by ourselves, and put there by ourselves by acquiescing to others.

 

Tony Robbins -- out!

 

-edit: Another thing I should add here too is that, though other's might put barriers in front of/on us, to blame other people for our problems is one the most dis-empowering things we can do, so don't fall into that either. It might be other people's fault, but it's really wrong for our own sake to fall into this default view. Hopefully you'll see what I'm saying by that. Blaming ourselves for everything is not the best approach either, but acknowledging that we can change things... good..-

Edited July 29, 2011 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Birch]

I like the idea of finding a reason to live for myself. I have never thought of that. I'll have to make a list or something.

 

 

A list is a really good idea (IME). I still do it sometimes, but it does seem to work, which is kind of scary I don't know 'how' it works. I guess practice hasn't yet revealed that one to me, yet. In fact, I think I love living because it's so damn interesting. And the more you do it, the more it seems to do you back. Which is also quite strange.

[steve]

Dear InfinityTruth,

 

One reason to not commit suicide is the absolute beauty and wonder of being alive.

All of our problems arise from our illusion that we are not good enough.

No matter what we have or don't have, it is the nature of our mind to desire more of what we like and less of what we don't.

With practice it is possible to see how the brain works in always judging, creating preferences, and telling itself that this (here and now) is not good enough, that we must become something else, rather than just be.

Once we see that clearly, it is possible to find a place where it is OK to just be, for a while.

Nothing is needed, nothing is missing, I am just here, now, and that is enough.

When you reach this place, there is an amazing awareness of just how precious this gift of being is and it is worth the game.

You should not live because of fear, shame, or guilt.

Life is a gift that you may cherish or throw away, it is your choice.

I agree that your posts have been reflective of insight and growth.

Pleasant experiences make life delightful, painful experiences stimulate us to grow.

I genuinely hope you find your way, wherever it may lead.

 

With genuine love and support

[deci belle]

Guilt for your family, fear of coming back and reliving the life over. Shame of what others will say. Those are the main reasons.

 

All I can say is I've hit an extremely low mood(As well as I kind of got an insight...all suicide prevention is based on fear, shame or guilt). And I've been thinking about it. I honestly don't see suicide prevention based on anything other than fear, shame, and guilt control methods.

 

All the reasons are based on fear, shame or guilt. Give me one example that is not.

 

Why should i live for my family's happiness when being alive is putting me through hell? Wjy is my family's happiness based on me being alive in the first place?

 

I just can't think of any actual reason to go on anymore. I want to quit playing this character. Maybe, it's just this sad mood I'm in.

 

I'm going to give it plenty of time to think about this before doing anything. I just want to know one genuine reason that is not based on fear, shame or guilt to keep going on as a sad drone. What is the honor in that? And what do you really get from honor? Nothing.

 

Think it through before you give an answer. Make sure that it is not based on fear, shame, or guilt.

 

Not everyone is strong enough to overcome their obstacles. Or drag through the mud with their obstacles.

 

I find that kind of funny since I used to be anti-suicide. I understand their perspective now.

 

Creation is causeless, non-origination is already your essential nature. What could possibly be accomplished by suicide? Can you laugh at that?❤

[Seth Ananda]

Potential is a Very good reason to live.

 

Often when we are down it can seem like there is no option's available, and that we are the worst/lowest specimen alive, that we cant deal with our past actions, our memories, that we have no qualifications, skills or options that are useful or wanted by anyone.

 

That is the mind set of the pit.

 

No matter how bad it is, if you look at others, you can find people who were in far worse situations, with far worse memories, and who had maybe done far worse things, and who also felt they had nothing to live for, no coping strategy's, no sense of meaning in their life.

 

The fact is many of these people probably killed themselves, but also, there are many who have found ways through the hardest sets of life experience that a human can be given. Many who asked for help [as i take this thread] or somehow found a way to create a meaningful existence. Some have become great helpers of others.

 

I personally feel there is something very special about the severely damaged.

They have a potential to develop very deep compassion and wisdom, and to be of great benefit to society.

 

 

I do think you could benefit from many of the suggestions already made here, meditation, self Inquiry, and definitely finding something to 'stand for' that gives you a sense of joy and meaning.

 

But a good psychologist or counselor can be very useful while you do this. The trick is knowing what a therapist can offer.

A therapist who uses cognitive behavioral therapy {CBT} will [hopefully] be very good at helping you develop strategy's for dealing with your mind and perceptions. Like How your family life causes you Hell, like how having to work with people make's you feel shit or hated. CBT can give you different ways to deal with whatever comes up.

 

CBT is not so good at dealing with deep emotional Issues and Traumas. For that you need more process oriented sessions, Like Gestalt, Voice dialogue and trauma counseling.

 

I obviously do not know what you personally need but I am sure you have an Idea.

 

If you are burdened by past actions of yourself or others, you need someone who you can talk too safely, but with complete honesty.

Starting to open your mouth starts to open the wounds. Out comes all the puss and noxious stuff, and then healing begins.

 

Also, I do not know what your family situation is, but at a very last resort, if it came down to you or them, choose you. Leave. Even if you are the provider, this happens in many family's, and they will survive. what if you went somewhere completely different, sorted your shit out, then came back? It would be hard on all involved but possibly not as hard as having you kill your self {sorry to use guilt}. They might even hate you for a while, but you are alive still and can help, if that is a role needed from you.

 

Anyway that's my piece. Blessings on your Journey.

Seth.

[tragblack]

Creation is causeless, non-origination is already your essential nature. What could possibly be accomplished by suicide? Can you laugh at that?❤

 

I can!

 

I wonder if, in past lives, I committed suicide...

[paulno]

Fear, shame,and guilt all suck. Art, love, and games yay!

[InfinityTruth]

-edit: Another thing I should add here too is that, though other's might put barriers in front of/on us, to blame other people for our problems is one the most dis-empowering things we can do, so don't fall into that either. It might be other people's fault, but it's really wrong for our own sake to fall into this default view. Hopefully you'll see what I'm saying by that. Blaming ourselves for everything is not the best approach either, but acknowledging that we can change things... good..-

 

Yes, I absolutely do not blame others completely for the shit going on. It just sucks that this keeps happening to me. I have seen that part of it is definitely the default programs I'm running in my head that built up over time.

 

When I'm stoned I'm no longer running those 'awkward' programs that create this reality. I'm my old self somewhat. I'm more comfortable. The problem is not only becoming aware of it, but also changing it, and not changing back when I get attacked.

[InfinityTruth]

In fact, I think I love living because it's so damn interesting. And the more you do it, the more it seems to do you back. Which is also quite strange.

 

It's very interesting. They say that real life is often stranger than fiction. I definitely agree.

 

There's always something new to do or an art to master. Thank god for infinity, or we'd all be bored off our asses.

[Thunder_Gooch]

"What's your rush now, everyone will have his day to die" - A Perfect Circle - Outsider

 

You've got something you are supposed to do before you die, find out what that is.

[tragblack]

I don't know if everyone consciously knows what they came here to do before they die "naturally."

[Birch]

I don't. Do we have to?

[tragblack]

No

[Pu-erh]

FWIW, I was really depressed for a while from age 15-16, and seriously contemplated suicide. I think the main thing that kept me going was the hope that I would someday get laid. Laugh if you will, but sexual desire can be a strong chain to bind us to this life. A little later, I read Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse and became interested in Eastern thought, especially Zen, and then after seeing Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon I rediscovered my childhood love of martial arts. In other words, I found other things that I loved and no longer had any desire to die.

 

So, what do you want? What do you love? What do you authentically care about? I think making a list is a great idea. Also, Kate Bornstein has a book called Hello Cruel World: 101 Alternatives to Suicide for Teens, Freaks, and Other Outlaws. I have not read it, this recommendation is from my sister who has gone through some serious depression in her life and is still kicking.

 

Personally, I also recommend seeing a psychotherapist if you are really that depressed. I did 3 years of therapy when I was in college and it helped me a lot.

 

Cheers.

 

PS: I have a lot of experience with drugs and I DO NOT recommend taking MDMA, LSD, mushrooms, salvia OR ayahuasca (yes I have done all of them) when you are depressed. That is just dangerous. This is coming from my personal experience as both a former drug user and as a graduate student/trainee in psychotherapy.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Pu-erh

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Yes, I absolutely do not blame others completely for the shit going on. It just sucks that this keeps happening to me. I have seen that part of it is definitely the default programs I'm running in my head that built up over time.

 

When I'm stoned I'm no longer running those 'awkward' programs that create this reality. I'm my old self somewhat. I'm more comfortable. The problem is not only becoming aware of it, but also changing it, and not changing back when I get attacked.

 

The weed thing sort of sounds like when I quit smoking. I felt really odd not having a cigarette in my hand, until I realized that the cigarette (maybe for you the buzz) was a social crutch that allowed me to distance myself from the situation or lack of conversation. What worked for me was to involve myself in conversation -- to get into the situation and make it something rather than avoiding it. It took some effort but I quit a 7 year habit cold turkey and never went back.

 

It sounds like part of your pressures also comes from haters. This one simple fact has made haters pretty much a non-issue for me: Haters try to make fun of people for shit that they themselves would be embarrassed about. When I thought about it, I soon realized "I'm not the one that gives a shit about this. They care, and so they make fun of me for it, but they are the ones that care, not me." Realizing this with compassion for them is better than laughing at them, btw

 

k. I got some work to do.

 

Peace..

[Birch]

" I DO NOT recommend taking MDMA, LSD, mushrooms,..."

 

Sounds sound enough to me. I can't talk to any of the other things though. I suppose if there were a scale of things NOT to do, those would probably be at the top of my list. But my question is WHY? Not because those things are illegal. Although I'm sure that doesn't help to elucidate it much. I read a book the other day about substances that mimic or 'switch in' for others in the human body. There was a post or 2 about different types of salts a few weeks back. Oh, then Vmarco's milk post. I'm figuring we might have something similar going on with the products you mentioned.

[Aetherous]

PS: I have a lot of experience with drugs and I DO NOT recommend taking MDMA, LSD, mushrooms, salvia OR ayahuasca (yes I have done all of them) when you are depressed. That is just dangerous. This is coming from my personal experience as both a former drug user and as a graduate student/trainee in psychotherapy.

 

Speaking on salvia, it is dangerous (if you don't have someone watching you while you take it...otherwise it's completely not dangerous), yet:

 

However, a report has been published detailing an individual case of Salvia divinorum use as self-medicated treatment for depression,[87] and Baggott's survey of 500 people with firsthand experience of salvia found that 25.8% of respondents reported improved mood and "antidepressant-like effects" lasting 24 hours or longer. Only 4.4% reported persisting (24 hours or more) negative effects (most often anxiety) on at least one occasion.

 

Source: Wikipedia

 

At least personally, I found that it renewed my appreciation for life as it is. I stopped taking drugs, including salvia itself, and started valuing sobriety. Plus it was a temporary escape, which is sometimes needed in today's workaholic society. I can say that despite it being a rough and sometimes scary trip, it was an overall healing experience for me to take the plant.

 

Not to put down your education, but just because you're a psych student and you've done these drugs, doesn't mean that you are qualified to speak on them. Do you know what results a depressed person will have from salvia, versus a non-depressed? No, of course not. There haven't been any studies on that. Have you done any studies on the drug, yourself? Nope.

 

The drug itself is not harmful in any way...the ONLY occasion it may prove to be dangerous is if the person taking it ends up hurting themselves while on the drug. If there is a sitter (person watching), then there is no danger.

 

The other drugs listed are known to be dangerous, though...

[Desert Eagle]

logical thinking about potential for improvement and getting away from it all being a better fate. objectively seeing my emotions and what causing them and then transforming them. psychotherapy or NLP.

 

but if only the drugs talk then Scotty is right to use stronger and better drugs with positive effects such as salvia, ayahuasca, San Pedro Cactus, or ibogaine. better to use them with shamanic guidance though.

 

there is a chinese recipe to quit drugs where you eat a lot of red raddish and vinegar.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Desert Eagle

[InfinityTruth]

Speaking on salvia, it is dangerous (if you don't have someone watching you while you take it...otherwise it's completely not dangerous), yet:

 

 

 

At least personally, I found that it renewed my appreciation for life as it is. I stopped taking drugs, including salvia itself, and started valuing sobriety. Plus it was a temporary escape, which is sometimes needed in today's workaholic society. I can say that despite it being a rough and sometimes scary trip, it was an overall healing experience for me to take the plant.

 

Not to put down your education, but just because you're a psych student and you've done these drugs, doesn't mean that you are qualified to speak on them. Do you know what results a depressed person will have from salvia, versus a non-depressed? No, of course not. There haven't been any studies on that. Have you done any studies on the drug, yourself? Nope.

 

The drug itself is not harmful in any way...the ONLY occasion it may prove to be dangerous is if the person taking it ends up hurting themselves while on the drug. If there is a sitter (person watching), then there is no danger.

 

The other drugs listed are known to be dangerous, though...

 

Everyone has had different experiences and has different standards(Live your own standards), which gives a variety of different opinions of drugs on this thread alone. I think that's why you have to listen mostly to yourself on this subject over anyone else. Or you'll be thrown all over the place.

[Adishakti]

Ok, I'm chewing on this bit.

 

In Taoist terms the last quarter might be called yin of yin (new moon yang of yang, 2nd quarter yin of yang, 3rd quarter yang of yin, 4th yin of yin)

 

Can you now explain what happens to the other 10 % who menstruate during / around the full moon?

 

Thank you

[Josama]

Most drugs can really be either bad or good(I say most because there are some that are always bad) what's important is that you use them wisely.Used in the right situation it can be a life changing experience in a good sens altough used in the wrong situation it could also end really bad.What drugs do is enhance they may enhance your loving side,they may enhance your hateful side or any other subpersonnality of yours or they will enhance your mood.

 

What makes a different between a bad and a good experience is the people you take them with and the mood you are in prior to taking them.

 

Also when talking about depression you need to talk about 2 kinds.One is a feeling of emptiness feeling like your are only living for the sake of society and all the time your are just mentally tired,in this situation your body may have a chemical imbalance which could really be helped with the right meds,that is the kind of depression I had.

 

And then the other kind is being sad most of the time,most people may call this depression(doctors included) but it really isn't,when you are sad that's an emotion coming from one of your subpersonnalties.If you fall in the second categorir,well then your are lucky."All" you need to do then is find the reason of the emotion arising and resolving it.