How do you measure meditation progress?

[hagar]

I will never tire of your posts Hagar. You really bring a wonderful perspective to our forum.

How to measure progress in something that, by it's very nature, is to be without a goal?

When sitting becomes an end and not a means, when daily life becomes the meditation, perhaps that is a measure of "progress"?

Certainly there are methods that are constructed of exercises where some measure of progress or some particular insight or experience is needed before graduating to subsequent steps. One can argue - is this meditation?

 

Steve,

 

I agree with your last point, that allthough there are ways to measure qualitative aspects of our meditation experience as signs of "progress", this forces a discussion of the definition of meditaiton vs "concentration" practice. There are obvious signs of debth of absorption or "consentration". And many traditions, including Buddhism, Daoism, Sufism and even Christianity have these milestpone indicators.

 

I attempted a year of Nei Dan practice everyday. Allthough there were obvious "signs" of progress, there were no real objective signs of progress. In this sense you might say I "failed". But what remained was an understanding of the difference of what spontaneously arises vs what you induce with will, intent and method. In this sense, a practice is just another form of conditioning you induce to get a spesific result. For me this has nothing to do with meditation in its ultimate sense.

 

h

 

PS: In the practice that opens up for the unknown, or unintentinal, progres is very difficult to measure indeed. It is therefore much more fruitful to evaluate the reason for the need to find signs of progress. On a relative level, its always good to track progress. But if the ultimate state, or reality allready is what you are, where are you going? So the best thing that could happen is to fail in the attempt to get anywhere, and find signs of any state of consciousness, as temporary as they are.

[三江源]

 

 

You can sometimes measure your meditation progress in terms of heart opening, and freedom from ego, but for this you have to note behavior in your own states and over a long period of time. Progress is slow as molasses, and I think most people quit meditation over the frustration of not knowing if they are making progress.

 

Yes. Ime being involved in life is the best test of how the work is progressing. Avoiding sex and relationships and cities and all that is one thing, but nothing shows you how you are actually doing as much as having all your old buttons pushed pretty much all the time by relationship challenges, traffic jams and so on and so forths. I dont think you can say you are progressing at all in meditation if you dont have a more and more opening heart and less and less ego drive.

[C T]

For some, before beginning on a spiritual path, their heart was like a stone.

Filled with anger, frustration, and ignorance, they hate everything and everyone.

Even when family passes away, no tears are shed. Emotionless, these people dry up slowly.

 

Having begun authentic spiritual practice, the heart softens. More open, more willing to be vulnerable.

Acceptance, Empathy, Compassion and Love thru actions permeates the spirit.

Simple joys are experienced, multiplied within, and freely shared with others.

Even the sight of a mistreated animal, or a dying bird, brings forth deep sadness and tears flow naturally, without any need for mind-made stories.

 

A simple guide to measuring mindfulness in meditation.

[Otis]

By all means, I think it is essential to observe where I am, all along the path.

 

And where I am includes the ease and the discomfort, not only in my body, but in my compassion, in my construct of the world, in my frustration with events and other people, in my forgiveness and acceptance of myself, in my personality's grasping.

 

The ease and discomfort are important, because they suggest the next step, what needs to be worked on now.

 

But I think it would be incorrect to say: "discomfort is arising, therefore I must be on the wrong path" or "I'm finding ease, therefore I am advanced". These conclusions are premature, I think, because the path doesn't follow a simple, linear or predictable unfolding.

 

I see spiritual growth as a very similar process to stretching the body. When I stretch, discomfort and ease are my guides, which explain to me what needs to be unwound, and what is the most organic path to unwinding it. In stretching, as I progress, I experience more freedom and I am more flexible. But that doesn't mean that pain goes away. I don't experience milestones in stretching, instead, the emphasis just shifts to some other part of my body. Where am I at, in freeing my body? Further than when I started. That's all I can say with anything like certainty. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy the new freedom, but measuring it seems not only impossible, but delusional.

 

And so it is with spiritual stretching. I may think I'm doing just fine, and feeling great. But that ease will probably lead me to the next discomfort, perhaps uncovering a traumatized area that I have, hitherto, been unaware of. Now, all of a sudden, everything is harder, there is more pain, I may even have a tough time finding compassion for others. But that does not mean that I'm on the wrong path. The traumatized area needs my attention, waking it up (including its pain) is essential for growth. Turning away from that area, because it seems to be "hurting my metrics", messing with my growth curve, is just a recipe for delaying growth, and perpetuating the trauma.

 

Rather than "measuring my spiritual progress", I think it is far more useful to just take this all very seriously (although, of course, with a sense of humor and play). If I am ruthlessly honest with myself, if I choose to accept and face my own pain, if I love the path (as an organic nonlinear unpredictable beautiful unfolding), then I do not need to measure, compare, or conceptualize, since those are reinforcers of the ego need for control, which is precisely the source of my dysfunction. I just need to keep loving growth, and trusting the path.

[三江源]

era of literalism

 

above is a link to an interesting little newspaper piece on how subtlety of understanding of spiritual life has been rather swamped by the current age.

[fiveelementtao]

I agree Cat,

Sitting is the practice, Life is the meditation. The meditation begins when one gets up from the practice...The meditation ends when one leaves this earthly life....THEN I suppose one could evaluate their meditative progress...

 

Yes. Ime being involved in life is the best test of how the work is progressing. Avoiding sex and relationships and cities and all that is one thing, but nothing shows you how you are actually doing as much as having all your old buttons pushed pretty much all the time by relationship challenges, traffic jams and so on and so forths. I dont think you can say you are progressing at all in meditation if you dont have a more and more opening heart and less and less ego drive.

[宁]

Of course there is measurement.

Thing is, it's not done by you, you can't measure from within a system. It is done from outside. Usually, the ones that measure you are your closest friends and family

 

Kidding aside, if there were no measurement involved, why the heck would a practice have different levels?

[Otis]

I was just reading Buddhism is not What You Think, by Steve Hagen, and came across the following:

 

"Zen - that is, meditation - is simply coming back to just this - being present, noticing that we babble to ourselves, that we tell stories to ourselves, that we try to explain everything.

 

Zen will never say anything to you. If it does, it's only because you're making it up. If you tell yourself, 'Oh, that was a good meditation. I really got into something deep there.,' it's nonsense. Pure delusion. And if you think, 'Oh, my meditation was off, my mind was really disturbed,' it's more delusion. Or, if you try to justify your meditation practice by saying, 'My day goes so much better when it begins with meditation,' it's all delusion. I never once heard my teacher talk like this. This is just our spinning minds jabbering to themselves."

[gendao]

http://bit.ly/gemL27

 

sean

The Pre-Vipassana Stages, 1st Vipassana Jhana

1. Mind and Body

2. Cause and Effect

3. The Three Characteristics

The 2nd Vipassana Jhana

4. The Arising and Passing Away

The 3rd Vipassana Jhana, The Dukkha Ñanas, The Dark Night

5. Dissolution

6. Fear

7. Misery

8. Disgust

9. Desire for Deliverance

10. Re-observation

The 4th Vipassana Jhana

11. Equanimity

12. Conformity

13. Change of Lineage

14. Path

Nirvana (first of two meanings)

15. Fruition

Review

16. Review

The Avatamsaka Sutra refers to the following ten bhūmis:

1. The first bhūmi, the Very Joyous. (Skt. Paramudita), in which one rejoices at realizing a partial aspect of the truth;

2. The second bhūmi, the Stainless. (Skt. Vimala), in which one is free from all defilement;

3. The third bhūmi, the Luminous. (Skt. Prabhakari), in which one radiates the light of wisdom;

4. The fourth bhūmi, the Radiant. (Skt. Archishmati), in which the radiant flame of wisdom burns away earthly desires;

5. The fifth bhūmi, the Difficult to Cultivate. (Skt. Sudurjaya), in which one surmounts the illusions of darkness, or ignorance as the Middle Way;

6. The sixth bhūmi, the Manifest. (Skt. Abhimukhi) in which supreme wisdom begins to manifest;

7. The seventh bhūmi, the Gone Afar. (Skt. Duramgama), in which one rises above the states of the Two vehicles;

8. The eighth bhūmi, the Immovable. (Skt. Achala), in which one dwells firmly in the truth of the Middle Way and cannot be perturbed by anything;

9. The ninth bhūmi, the Good Intelligence. (Skt. Sadhumati), in which one preaches the Law freely and without restriction;

10. The tenth bhūmi, the Cloud of Doctrine. (Skt. Dharmamegha), in which one benefits all sentient beings with the Law (Dharma), just as a cloud sends down rain impartially on all things.

Taoism also has numerous confirmatory signs for making various breakthroughs...

 

So yes, there are many established ways to measure your stage of integration and realization. Which I think is useful because a lot of imagined "progress" is really just wishful thinking without any semi-"objective" points of reference..

Edited April 29, 2011 by vortex

[Birch]

era of literalism

 

above is a link to an interesting little newspaper piece on how subtlety of understanding of spiritual life has been rather swamped by the current age.

 

If I could have double-plus-one'd it I would've.

And where do you reckon the roots of this problem lie? I have a kind of an idea but I'm saving it up

[effilang]

I'm having a hard time finding a way to measure my progress in meditation, and was looking for some ideas.

 

Wasn't there a HUGE ASS book dedicated solely to this. In fact it is called How to Measure and Deepen Your Spiritual Progress if i am not mistaken.

 

Check it out.

[steve]

Great reading in this thread from everyone!

 

I practice a system that does indeed have multiple stages and indicators of progress though my teacher does the measuring - not me.

In addition, I've seen many changes in myself over time associated with this practice - are they direct consequences of meditation or coincidental? Who knows? Presumably they are consequences, for example -

- I no longer have much interest in intoxication of any type

- I can no longer derive pleasure from harming anything (ie fly fishing used to be a hobby - can't do it anymore)

- My heart has opened to friends, family, patients, co-workers and my life and work, and relationships have changed as a result.

- I've experienced the fundamental connection of everything deep in my bones and it will never leave me

- I generally see through the shell people put up and recognize their motivations and intentions, simply because they are also in me.

Plus lots of other "experiences"

 

However!

 

True meditation is simply to be fully aware and be fully what we are. There is nowhere else to go, no one else to be.

How can a horse be more horse-like? The sage is completely in touch with his human-ness and does not strive to be something other. Buddhism, particularly the Chan and Zen traditions, very strongly emphasizes this principle as does Vedanta, Sufism, and all the great traditions. So what goal can there possibly be in meditation? How can you get there if you already are? This is a key lesson in meditation although most of us do have to jump through many hoops to see it. And it led to a crisis in me when I recognized it. It look a long time to reconcile the fundamental truth of meditation (no goal, nowhere to go but here and now) and yet continue to practice. It's quite a paradox. And certainly the process does seems to have valuable and beautiful side effects.

Edited April 29, 2011 by steve f

[steve]

era of literalism

 

above is a link to an interesting little newspaper piece on how subtlety of understanding of spiritual life has been rather swamped by the current age.

Great link cat, thanks

Karen Armstrong is a great writer and thinker. I need to check the others.

[RiverSnake]

 

True meditation is simply to be fully aware and be fully what we are. There is nowhere else to go, no one else to be.

How can a horse be more horse-like? The sage is completely in touch with his human-ness and does not strive to be something other. Buddhism, particularly the Chan and Zen traditions, very strongly emphasizes this principle as does Vedanta, Sufism, and all the great traditions. So what goal can there possibly be in meditation? How can you get there if you already are? This is a key lesson in meditation although most of us do have to jump through many hoops to see it. And it led to a crisis in me when I recognized it. It look a long time to reconcile the fundamental truth of meditation (no goal, nowhere to go but here and now) and yet continue to practice. It's quite a paradox. And certainly the process does seems to have valuable and beautiful side effects.

 

Indeed, this is something i have quite recently "truly learned". For me Alan was able to convey it best. How useful is the useless!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxRQVBDtB_8&feature=related

Edited April 30, 2011 by Empty_Water

[Otis]

The fact that systems have levels and hierarchies is not necessarily a sign that reality also has those things.

 

Systems have levels and hierarchies, because those things are endemic to systems. If we try to teach, we end up creating conceptual hierarchy, we end up creating conceptual levels of progress. That is inherent in teaching a system. It does not mean that those things are truly reflective of how any unique individual will experience growth.

[ShaktiMama]

I'm having a hard time finding a way to measure my progress in meditation, and was looking for some ideas.

 

If people are surprised you even have a meditation practice when you tell them and start ROTFLTAO that is good marker that your practice needs work.

 

If people you are acquainted with say that your presence makes them feel peaceful and calm when you are around them just keep practicing what you are doing.

 

If you want a more refined measuring tool...are you happy? is your sleep quality better? are you more healthy? are you becoming more engaged in a positive way with the people around you?

Edited April 30, 2011 by ShaktiMama

[Jetsun]

Daniel Ingram has made a good map from Buddhist perspective

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/Nanas%20and%20jhanas%20tablep1.pdf

 

You can get his book free from his website

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml