Why I am against 'powers'

[Mark Foote]

[Birch]

I want to thank SF Jane again for what I read as an excellent post and putting herself on the line and I feel like saying to you SFJane "you go girl" because you got to here from there and that incredibly fucked up family did not win. You win. And I am on the side of the people who get through. Ask me why some other time.

 

GIH, I like your posts because they are interesting and counterpoint and logical. Yet I often find them formulaic IMO. Your forewarning of "unkindness" is unnecessary. IF (IMO) you are taking yourself seriously as a teacher (and I think you are a good one) then conveying kindness (especially online) could be learned so you wouldn't have to warn anyone. IF however, you forewarn because you intend to be unkind, I'm not so sure about why you would do that. Just a thought.

[goldisheavy]

GIH, I like your posts because they are interesting and counterpoint and logical. Yet I often find them formulaic IMO.

 

I agree. There is a theme or two that tend to run through all my posts. I don't have a lot of messages. I only have one or two core messages.

 

Thank God I am only one person though. If I was a stand-in for many people, my narrow-mindedness and lack of imagination would be boring. I myself enjoy reading and learning from a lot of people here.

 

Your forewarning of "unkindness" is unnecessary. IF (IMO) you are taking yourself seriously as a teacher (and I think you are a good one) then conveying kindness (especially online) could be learned so you wouldn't have to warn anyone. IF however, you forewarn because you intend to be unkind, I'm not so sure about why you would do that. Just a thought.

 

Point taken.

 

Although it's not much of a warning. You guys tend to take things more seriously than I prefer. Of course you have to be at least somewhat serious to have an interesting discussion, but there is, I think, a reasonable limit. If you pass that limit of seriousness you become a fanatic or an extremist. At least that's what some people say.

 

Thanks Kate for your thoughts.

[tyler zambori]

Great Post, thanks for sharing, a great commentary on how we get hypnotised by our own egos.

 

Personally i think Siddhis are attainable, but only really in an individual totally 'surrendered' to the subtlest Will.

 

And do you think such a person would be interested in proving that siddhis exist to the world?

I doubt it. Such a person would have other priorities.

 

As for not believing in siddhis as a protection against falling into a cult, even that doesn't

work. You don't need to have any stinking siddhis in order to have a cult!

 

Did you know that the Amway company, a multi-level marketing company specializing in selling

soap, is listed as a cult on the RickRoss website?

 

And when I was in my screenwriting class, it turned out that a fellow student had been in

an acting cult. Yes, they were going to go off to Los Angeles and become famous together.

 

Cult thinking is even scarier and more widespread than that, even. You don't even need

a charismatic leader and a group to get it going.

 

But if faced with such a group, you don't have to look for believing or not believing

in siddhis for a litmus test. I would say the things to look out for are: do they treat

you with disrespect, and do they try to get you give up your independence? Do they try

to coerce you into anything at all? Also, look at their ethics. Bad ethics will start

to show up in small ways, pretty quick.

 

That's just a rough idea of what *I* would look for.

[forestofemptiness]

When I said sloppy and imprecise, I was referring to what everyone else means, which you say you adopted as your own.

 

So what is intent? A vague, fuzzy mental feeling that precedes physical action? A mental plan? Physical tension, as when you close your eyes tight and try to move a ball with your mind? A wish? A desire? All of these? None of these? Some of some, not of others? What psycho-physical phenomenon are you labeling "intent"?

 

If you perceive an ambiguity, just call it out and I will do my best to disambiguate it. To call out an ambiguity, please provide good descriptions of two different and incompatible understandings that can arise due to an ambiguity. In other words, if you just say "it's ambiguous" and leave it at that, I will not respond (or at least, not kindly).

[Lucky7Strikes]

This might have something to do with it. Guru's who can't keep their dick in their dhoti.

 

More

 

and more

 

and more...

 

Unfair? These guys do it to themselves. Their siddhi goes to their little head and we see how enlightened they really are.

The works above make sweeping narrow minded generalizations with limited knowledge of teachings of Yoga, Buddhism, and cultivation in general. It's kind of like those oriental drawings.

 

And at times, they're just forcing it...like the Dalai Lama section of Stripping the Guru.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[voidisyinyang]

BLASPHEMY!

 

I just had to say it But I can see the defence to john chang being:

He is rich, doesn't have reason to trick people, he can't take a penny from his skills anyway.

He has nothing to prove to you or the world, your loss.

 

And thats where it stays... Thats why I wish Masters with such power made a bigger effort on showing this stuff is real...if it is...

 

 

And on a side note, John Chang has been in a car crash, but his body was protected from any injury, yin chi absorb impact, or yang made his body rock hard.

 

How'd you hear about John Chang being in a car crash? I thought he was in hiding in the jungle meditating!

[Lucky7Strikes]

The second thing I wanted to cover was this. I went out on a limb here, talking about my personal practice and the things I've tried to do in the past. I tried to be as honest as I could. I was willing to test myself, exhaustively so, in order to see if anything in my toolkit could take the million dollar challenge. Then I came forward and admitted in a public forum that I had nothing that could withstand the scrutiny of science.

 

To do that required that I be brutally honest with myself and be fully engaged with reality testing. If you can't figure out what is real psi and what is stage magic or confirmation bias or Darrin Brown style rapport and suggestion then how the heck are you going to find the beginning and end of your own consciousness? How are going to find the mindstream? How are you going to root out your ego and obtain a core of realistic honesty with yourself and your inner world if you can't tell the difference between a power and a trick?

I'm not sure what inquiring into the self has anything to do with figuring out magic tricks. I guess I can figure out magic tricks if I really wanted to, but why is that so important or have anything to do with finding the "mindstream"?

 

If you've been disappointed with the Gurus or what not, I suggest you look in Ramana Maharshi. His life may suit your vision of an exemplary guru.

[fizix]

How'd you hear about John Chang being in a car crash? I thought he was in hiding in the jungle meditating!

It was detailed in the book, The Magus of Java; apparently his chi absorbed the energy of the crash and saved him.

[dwai]

You do understand that I no longer practice such things yes? And that I gave the answer at the beginning. I was scared and I wanted to protect myself and I wanted revenge. What more reason do you need than passion? Passion drove me to train that hard that long in those things. And I often had plenty of forced seclusion or isolation during my childhood and teens with nothing better to do than to try to teleport myself out of a lockdown, walk through it's walls or blast down it's doors with sheer mental power. I believed I had a need for that power and I was certainly open-minded enough to try.

 

 

 

This might have something to do with it. Guru's who can't keep their dick in their dhoti.

 

More

 

and more

 

and more...

 

Unfair? These guys do it to themselves. Their siddhi goes to their little head and we see how enlightened they really are.

 

 

I get that you found your salvation in The Water Method of Taoist Meditation. Commendable! Also commendable is that you managed to break free of your real/perceived prison of sorts and did not have to resort to TK in order to do that. Well, welcome to the real world. That is how life unfolds, fortunately or unfortunately. Of the billions of hapless people in this world, maybe even 1% get to do what you did. And your interest in these "Super-hero-esque" powers was more than likely your inability to grow up and take responsibility for your life and actions (and thereby the consequences thereof). When you did, you realized that it was all crap and you figured out the what was valuable to you.

 

That doesn't however absolve you of being narrow-minded and biased. There are a lot of organizations and entities who have taken upon themselves the responsibility of denigrating and "debunking" Teachers who dare teach traditions that go against the mainstream. A lot of these Guru sexcapades are more than likely confabulated by these entities.

 

Another note is about the Sex angle itself. Indian dharma never claims that one has to be a celibate, sanctimonious holier-than-thou saint to be a qualified teacher. In fact we consider the four Purusharthas or Worldly pursuits of equal important. Artha (Wealth), Kama (sensual pleasures), Dharma (To uphold The Way) and Moksha (liberation from the cycle of birth and death) are all worthy of pursuit. In fact, a human experience is incomplete or stunted if it misses one or the other. Why? The primacy is of Dharma or to uphold the Way. To be able to do that, one has to have reasonable financial well being (so Artha). Human nature is to run behind sensory pleasures, so to deprive oneself off these would only be repression . Moderate experience and expression of Sensual aspects is perfectly valid (Not to much, not too little..the key is moderation). When one enables oneself to perform practices that help one in Upholding the Way (by not repressing oneself and being self-reliant for sustenance and material wellbeing), one is in a better position for Liberation from the Samsaric Cycle (or Moksha).

 

So, the bottom line is this -- it is not sinful or unfair of a Guru to have sex with anyone, unless he/she has forcibly done so. Consensual relationship between two adults is a perfectly normal thing. I only question the integrity of the "white women" that these Indian Gurus seem to "lust after", since groupie culture is very natural and common in the West. It is not unlikely that a lot of these Guru Groupies did hop into bed with a Guru or two and then when they felt marginalized or were manipulated by certain elements in the media or Government or other Religious organizations (such as Churches, etc), turned against the target of their groupie-ism.

 

 

 

[Lucky7Strikes]

So enjoy yourselves. Have fun. Be good to each other. Don't rush anything. When you are ready, you'll start asking different sorts of questions than when you love being human and want to remain human in a human world, with all that it implies, and you just want a little something extra special on top, a little spicy spice on top. A little spicy microcosmic orbit practice. A little spicy chakra practice. Something that is guaranteed not to disturb or change your dream of human in a human world even in the slightest. Something safe.

 

Enjoy!

I sense...uh what do you call this...sarcasm? passive aggression? mockery? kekekkeke....

 

Edited April 9, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[C T]

You do understand that I no longer practice such things yes? And that I gave the answer at the beginning. I was scared and I wanted to protect myself and I wanted revenge. What more reason do you need than passion? Passion drove me to train that hard that long in those things. And I often had plenty of forced seclusion or isolation during my childhood and teens with nothing better to do than to try to teleport myself out of a lockdown, walk through it's walls or blast down it's doors with sheer mental power. I believed I had a need for that power and I was certainly open-minded enough to try.

 

 

 

This might have something to do with it. Guru's who can't keep their dick in their dhoti.

 

More

 

and more

 

and more...

 

Unfair? These guys do it to themselves. Their siddhi goes to their little head and we see how enlightened they really are.

What more reason does anyone need, succumbing to lust, other than passion? It happens to be a strong, natural force. Striving for Siddhis is a kind of lust too... so is abhorring same.

 

Even the gods and goddesses abiding in the bliss realms can fall... gurus are no exception. That which we perceive and judge as 'human weaknesses' are none other than Nature's way of ensuring the unfailing and infinite processes of purification. Evolution would not be possible without these lessons that She bestows equanimously on us all - whether our name is John, Jane or Swamiji.

[goldisheavy]

I sense...uh what do you call this...sarcasm? passive aggression? mockery? kekekkeke....

 

 

Not really. I meant it sincerely. I don't see why everyone should just abandon being human. I think it's a person's choice.

[goldisheavy]

When I said sloppy and imprecise, I was referring to what everyone else means, which you say you adopted as your own.

 

So what is intent?

 

You know what it is. You know how to use that term intelligently in conversation, therefore you have what it takes to understand its meaning. Even if you don't understand it right away, you can eventually understand it.

 

A vague, fuzzy mental feeling that precedes physical action?

 

It's not a feeling and it doesn't precede. It is one with action.

 

A mental plan?

 

Planning can be a symptom of intending to do something, but it's not in and of itself intent.

 

Physical tension, as when you close your eyes tight and try to move a ball with your mind?

 

That's emphatically not intent. If you intended the ball to move, it would move. What you describe is an intent to wish that the ball move, or intent to close your eyes and fantasize a bit about the ball moving. Huge difference. An intent to strain.

 

A wish? A desire? All of these? None of these?

 

None of those.

 

In Buddhist lingo it's kamma or karma. If you want to describe intent, you really can't equate it with anything. However the closest, but still not accurate description would be a state of certain knowledge. Like when you move your arm just as you intend to, there is a certain knowledge that you are moving your arm, right as you move it, not before, not after, not separate from movement, not the same as movement either. It's also that which makes you responsible for something. (compare and contrast: my arm moved unintentionally)

Edited April 9, 2010 by goldisheavy

[mjjbecker]

For anyone seeking 'powers', I recommend the '5 whys' exercise:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_Whys

 

Try and be honest with yourself. The answers may not be what you want to see, but they will be invaluable if you allow them to be.

 

As far as John Chang goes, I think I am the only person who has posted here that has actually met him (please correct me if I am wrong) and spent time around the man. That said, I don't feel qualified to say what his intentions were/are, or to pass judgement on him. It is a shame that so many seek to form opinions based on no direct personal experience of the man. That goes for the nay sayers as well as the yay sayers.

 

The 'demonstrations' do of course look like they are 'set-up'. That is because they are edited video clips. People can, and will, chose to believe what they want, based on their own personal experience. Experience is the thing here, and it really therefore matters little what anyone else says or claims.

 

Non of that matters though. Finding your own place and purpose in life does.

 

In a nutshell, try to understand 'to what purpose do I seek these things?'

 

Finding the correct purpose for you and peace of mind matter. 'Powers' and such like are simply static. Why are you seeking to concentrate on the static at the expense of the music?

[三江源]

Great Post, thanks for sharing, a great commentary on how we get hypnotised by our own egos.

 

Personally i think Siddhis are attainable, but only really in an individual totally 'surrendered' to the subtlest Will.

 

I came across a Buddhist discussion of Siddhis at one point (i can't seem to find it, thought i'd bookmarked it...) and they discussed internal and external Siddhis, the external Siddhis being what most people refer to as powers, and that these were dead ends in terms of true realisation. The internal Siddhis were things such as concentration, focus, faith, discrimination, etc., and that seeking these Siddhis lead one to realisation. I really like this approach.

 

If i do find the link i'll post it.

 

THIS ONE! Perfect.

 

"Hypnotised by our own egos" is a great concise way of describing so much of what goes on. And internal Siddhis. yes. Aint it the way of our culture to favour the exernal over the internal..

[EagleShen]

[C T]

Thanks Mark, in the stuff i've read these strengths (faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom) are considered the 'real siddhis' when developed to a profound level - and that this must be done before the Siddhis that derive from them emerge - and that by this time there is little interest in them.

Agreed. Well said ES.

 

Siddhis always manifest from, and return to, potential.

 

We hear stories of people performing supernormal feats in the face of mortal danger (like a mother lifting a car off her pinned daughter for eg) - where is the source of these 'siddhis'? Could it be that they already exist, not as some form of power, but as a resource that can be honed and tapped? Does it really require four score and twenty years before they begin to manifest in the being?

 

Nature, for example, demonstrate her 'siddhis' unceasingly... this is plainly obvious to those who see... yet the majority cant and dont see. So for those who do see, and i'm sure many Bums here do, the question to be asked is - are the manifestations of such natural wonders seen as existing apart from 'you'? Or is the separation just an illusion, a mirage-like barrier that is created by the imprints of gross and subtle karma? What happens when these illusions and imagined barriers are suddenly banished, or just for an instant eradicated from memory? Perhaps miracles will manifest? Its certainly not impossible.

Edited April 11, 2010 by CowTao

[That Guy]

A general question(s) to those who think seeking special abilities is the wrong way to go...

 

"How big is your ego??"

 

I mean, how can you know what is the best way to go about things for every person in the world???

 

A lot also say it's not the goal but the journey, so the important part (the journey) will happen while they chase special powers.

 

So why not forget their goals and help them start their journey by showing them what they can eventually do?

Even if you believe its not what is important..it will possibly have them start their journey

 

You know who you guys are, so can you answer my questions? (Ya Mu?)

[SFJane]

IMO, she is making it black and white because she needs to. But many of us don't need to.

I predict that she won't allow any room in the middle of the spectrum, but the rest of

us can and will do so as we please.

 

Yeah, I agree that a lot of this stuff is just immature, real or not. I think

that is another explanation why don't see people going out to prove it.

 

I consider kind of insulting that she considers anybody who doesn't think the way she does, to be brainwashed, but that is all about her, not anybody else.

Because if we do follow her way of thinking, the brainwashing factor could very well still be at work.

 

Notice she did not use the scientific method in thinking about her own experiences when she converted over to the "science jargon" way of thinking.

She just simply became a convert.

 

Firstly, I don't appreciate you doing my thinking for me. It's exceedingly disrespectful and arrogant to boot. Secondly, this thread is about me. I posted about my experiences, experiments, their results and answered the question that I posted, “why I am against powers”

 

Thirdly, I did use the scientific method on my own experiences. You just posted something you attributed to me that was completely wrong. That is the problem you encounter when you build straw men for people and try to set fire to them. I did not 'simply' become a convert like 'voila' an overnight transformation.

 

The concept of confirmation bias is one the heaviest burdens I have ever known. To reexamine all my magical/psi/spiritual experiences under the lens of skepticism rather than just 'simply accepting' what I was taught and trained into thinking those experiences really mean. It took a long time to convert and it was anything but simple.

 

Taoist meditation made a skeptic out of me. In learning my own mind I had to ransack through all the things I had learned that were supposedly true and either dump the existing bias or find some alternative way to evaluate what I was doing and experiencing that did not involve a default to my learned prejudices. I had to open my mind even further than it was already in an attempt to determine and judge the real from the false. I had to accept one devastating ego blow after another and dealt with how that new-found skepticism affected me.

 

I think the reason nobody really took the amazing Randi up on his challenge, is just because

a human is not a petri dish. For example. would I want to do that ring experiment on

national tv, even for a lot of money? Heck no. How would I even prove that I was

experiencing pain from having touched the ring? I couldn't. And then there is the

psychic barrage of skepticism. Sorry, no thank you. And yet it was real.

The fact that I cannot, and would not want to, turn myself into a petri dish,

doesn't mean I didn't experience it.

 

Ah, so you are another of those TTBers who believe that skepticism=negative energy=magic dampening field. Can't you see what that reveals about your own thinking? If your psi demo can be influenced by simply having a skeptic in the audience you don't have an ability or a power. You don't. You are bullshitting yourself.

 

Granted there are difficulties in testing the ring example. How do you know it wasn't all in your mind? How have you gone about testing the validity of that experience? You are inclined to believe in 'evil' spells, magic, psi and the like. Is it any wonder then that is what you experienced?

 

I think the real reason nobody took the check from Randi was that all those folks were incredibly skilled at self deception and did not want to look like fools when their awesome powers fail to work in a controlled experiment. I'll give an example,(you can chase down the details at the JREF forums)

 

There was a woman who wanted to demo her telekinesis by making a key on a string move with her mind. The JREF assistant wanted to control for possible external factors and in order to keep the experiment honest, requested that a glass dome cover the demo. The woman never followed through with the experiment to claim her million dollars. I am guessing what happened is, she tried to move the key using some kind of barricade herself and realized her powers were nonexistent or so feeble as to not being able to pass through thin glass.

 

I had something similar going on once myself. Sixteen years ago I had over my bed a mobile on a string. It was made entirely of metal and featured long thin metal wires with metal bearing on the ends. I noticed one day that when I was laying on my back and staring up at it that it seemed to rotate in one direction or the other. I tried to control the action by speeding it up with my mind. Sure enough it seemed that when I focused on it, it's turning speed increased.

 

So, I went on to test further. I turned my eyes towards a pen or pencil on the nightstand several feet away and tried to make it come to me. It would not. So why did my power work on the mobile and not the pencil? I tried to figure it out. I wondered if the structure with it's metal rods, wires and bearings somehow augmented my power. I moved to another area of the room further away from the metal mobile over my bed and just watched it patiently.

 

Sure enough, it would move on it's own. After watching it for the better part of an hour I could see that unattended, the mobile would twist and wind and change directions, first slowly, then quicker, then it would slow again, then stop all by itself. Until then I had never bothered to stare at the thing with full attention for so long. Besides, if I was doing TK when the mobile moved, why wouldn't the pencil also move? Why was my TK so limited and so weak? Occam's Razor provides the answer. Gravity and small air currents are all the explanation you need for why the mobile moved the way that it did. My TK power level did not enter the equation.

 

Are you really sure that you came to your conclusion that "psychic powers" are

basically all fake, by really scientific means? I ask, because I don't think so.

 

For example: "It was the end of last period class in junior high and I knew, I just knew, with total certainty, who was going to be called down to the office during the afternoon announcements. Sure enough within a minute or two of my perception, the announcements began and the first two people called were the names that had popped into my head. My whole body began to shake because I thought I was a mutant. I thought this was the beginning of me becoming Carrie or Firestarter."

 

How was it that later you decided you didn't really know who was going to be chosen after all?

(If I'm understanding you correctly). You can't "cold read" something like that.

 

You have no idea what I decided. You just theorized and made up my response out of thin air. More of that whole doing my thinking for me bit. Stating my position before I have done so myself is straw man at it's finest.

 

How should a person interpret that experience? When it happened to me at school, I made a big deal about it. There is nothing really to make a big deal about. Skepticism would require that I at least entertain the notion that I was lucky. That it was simply chance.

 

Looked at over the short and long term, I only 'knew, with total certainty' who was going to get called down one time at school. One incident out of thousands is not a statistically meaningful enough event to get worked up about. It does not prove anything at all. When it happened to me, I believed it was because I was psychic. But as I've gotten older I have also considered and accepted the possibility that it was random chance.

 

Also: "I had my first full out of body experience when I was fifteen. My new foster parents had just grounded me for a week for some misdeed or other. Coincidentally I had just been to the mall and bought 'Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body' and the 'Astral Projection Workbook'. It so happened that I set aside OTEGOYB first and got to work with astral projection. For twelve hours I tried to rise up or fall backwards out of my body. Hour after hour I tried. Finally, I was so tired that I literally collapsed forward onto my face, all tension and effort left me as I crashed into the mattress and then I was staring down at my body from the ceiling."

 

Also, how did you decide that this experience also was not real after the fact, when you did expereince it as real at the time you had it?

 

This is more of your fallacious thinking at work Tyler. This is the straw man argument again. You have invented a position for me “how did you decide..also was not real after the fact?” I decided no such thing. The fact of which instantaneously reveals your straw man at work and shows that your conclusions are also flawed.

 

That OBE experience was the first of many. They were all very real to me when they happened. Of all the alleged magic and siddhi and other experiences I've had the OBEs remain some of the most vivid and powerful. OBEs are a enormous subject that people have religious level convictions about. It can easily be a topic unto itself. Here is some interesting facts about OBEs:

 

People sometimes have OBE's when they think they are going to die. I read a story about how a soldier dropped a grenade without it's pin and had a spontaneous OBE. The grenade was for training and contained no explosives. But in the mind of the soldier, he was about to be a dead man and that mental shock was enough to trigger an OBE.

 

I have a similar story. One that I wrote about in my MS. During a long depression I took a huge overdose and experienced certain aspects of NDEs and OBEs. My experience was game changing. I totally turned my life around in the year that followed.

 

Another interesting tidbit about NDE/OBE is that fighter pilots sometimes have them when they do heavy G maneuvers. Scientists did a study where they put pilots in a centrifuge and spun them. It turned out this was a reliable way to cause an NDE.

 

You can have an NDE from drug OD, deliberate projection practice, pulling high Gs or dropping a dud grenade. Scientists have made a variety of electromagnetic devices that stimulate various areas of the brain. In some studies, scientists were able to reliably cause experiences similar to NDE to occur to experimental subjects.

 

When I had my OBEs I made a big deal out of them. I thought it was more proof of my success at this kind of training. It built up my ego somewhat. I thought I was cool because these things happened to me. But the real question is what does it mean? What does it mean to have a NDE? Some skeptics would say that OBE are simply the brain firing in odd ways. Others would say that the odd firing of the brain is just what we can see of the process and not explanatory of anything.

 

I have to say that I was both impressed and appalled that you could reproduce OBEs by swinging people around in a 'fuge. It's scientifically pragmatic but I could not help but feel that it cheapened the experience and whatever crisis it was that led to the experience. That was science colliding with mystery. When I analyzed my feelings I realized that I was still hung up on certain terms like spiritual or divine and that I resented science for figuring out or at least replicating such a 'spiritual experience'. It made me feel like my OBE wasn't all that special or meaningful. And then I realized that it was I who colored the experience as meaningful because I had been trained to through expectation and cultural bias.

 

Well, psychic siddhis often occupy a middle ground between low anecdotal standards subject to confirmation bias & fraud to exceedingly high scientific standards of repeatability at will. Which means that it could be very likely that they actually happened...but would be difficult to prove scientifically because they are not easily repeatable under controlled conditions. I think several of your psychic anecdotes would fall into this category. They definitely aren't scientifically PROVEN, but cannot be easily logically or scientifically explained away either. The point here being that we should allow some room in the middle of the spectrum, instead of polarizing everything as black or white. Just because something can't be scientifically proven - does not mean it didn't happen legitly.

 

Vortex's primary point here is this (paraphrasing) 'Some psychic stuff is hard to explain away in a controlled study but does not necessarily mean it was not legit.'

 

The knowing of something in advance that turns out to be true is not something that can be replicated on demand. Here are some other examples. I mentioned knowing what song was coming on the radio before it started. It could be a psychic perception. It could also be chance. Chance weighs even more heavily because radio stations often use a playlist. If you listen to your favorite radio station a lot you might subconsciously store the playlist. If the station has 20 different tracks they use during day time programming then you have a 1-20 (5%) chance at guessing accurately what the next song is going to be. A better test would be to randomly stop at stations you don't frequent playing music you don't normally listen to and then try to sense, intuit or know what the next track is going to be. I'd be willing to bet you would fail more often.

 

What a truly open minded person does is weigh both possibilities. Instead of it being a 100% absolute certainty that my perception was a psychic one, I allow for the possibility that I was simply lucky. That's just humility not to mention logic and common sense.

 

I don't practice mentally moving cars or controlling weather anymore nor do I have a babble of voices and noise in my head either. Despite having ceased practicing the occult and psi and having attained a certain amount of internal stillness I still have knowing on occasion. That is, sometimes I know exactly, even word for word, what someone is about to say, I know what song is going to be on the radio, I know who is calling when the phone rings the very instant it rings.

 

Each one of those things has a plausible scientific explanation. I already covered knowing what song is coming next on the radio. Knowing what someone is going to say does not have to be a psychic perception. I might simply be a natural at cold reading. My understanding of language and psychology and my sense of body language might be all I need to take a good guess at what someone is going to say.

 

The point is, knowing what someone is going to say before they say it could just be a subconscious guess. It could be simply chance. It might be psi. But I would not say with 100% conviction that my perception was one of those three solutions. I might be wrong. Knowing your conclusions may be flawed and choosing uncertainty over the bliss of total certainty is a sign of an open and questing mind in my book.

 

Knowing who is calling before looking at the caller ID or picking the phone up could also be explained away using similar criteria. How many people call this number on a regular basis? At this time of day? On this day of the week? Add that number to the number of calls from telemarketers or survey takers and divide by the number of total calls and you could arrive a certain percent chance of a lucky guess.

 

The subjective experience is that I sensed, I knew, who was on the other end of the phone line with certainty and I was right. Subjective validation and confirmation bias leads one to think that it must have been psychic. But science and statistics can show that chance is just a strong a possibility. Only an arrogant fool would conclude that it had to be psychic, end of story. That shows a religious-like naivete about the nature of statistics and chance as a well as a preference to solving the situation with one's own biases.

 

So Tyler, contrary to your baseless assumption that I must have done some kind of skeptic gymnastics and invalidated my own experiences, I have simply opened myself up to other, less larger than life explanations. I also learned that there is nothing to make a big deal about. Do you make a big deal about your other sensory perceptions? Do you ponder the meaning of random smells or sounds that you detect? Your brain takes note of it and moves on and does not get hung up on what you smelled or heard.

 

Likewise, when I get a chance 'hit' and I know who is calling or what someone is going to say and it turns out I am right, I just process the datum and move on. I don't make a big deal about it. I don't try to debunk myself or invalidate my sensory experience. I accept the perception for the data that it gave me. I file it away and give it no further thought. I've learned to incorporate acceptance of such random seeming knowledge and it's neither a good thing or a bad thing. It's not something to be suppressed or ignored nor to get excited about.

 

These kinds of events as vortex pointed out, are very hard to reproduce in a lab on demand. Does it mean I am psychic? Only possibly. If so, it's not very impressive since I can't control it. Humility requires that I entertain the possibility that I am wrong and that I was simply lucky. Neither explanation makes waves in my mind or heart. It's just not a big deal anymore. That is the place I think most people should aspire to. It's a more balanced way of looking at the entire picture instead of just accepting everything you've been told about what these events really mean and stampeding over the cliff of selective thinking into the realm of unquestioning certainty.

 

Look at all the threads on TBB about powers. Kunlun and powers. Kundulini and powers. Chi kung and powers. Cultivation method X and powers. Threads about psi, remote healing, telepathy, and on and on make for some some of the most involved and replied to topics on this board. Cultivation siddhi are a big deal to you folks or the topic would not get revisited again and again and produce so much passionate discussion.

 

All I did with this thread is try to offer some reasons as to why I feel that focusing on seeming cultivation induced powers is the not the road to liberation. I tried to inject some level of candidness here and set a standard for lack of self deceit. What I've found in some of the responses here is that a lot of you are still where I was ten years ago when I thought that siddhi were a big deal.

 

Taoist meditation forced me to evaluate everything I thought was real and everything I assumed was true. The practice of meditation led me to confront myself and my core thoughts about life and how reality works. In that process I unraveled my own thought processes and biases and was able to overcome them.

 

It seems like some of you haven't even started such an inquiry because you don't see the need. You are so sure you have it all figured out and that you are right. You weigh some criteria and evidence as being more valid and toss out dissenting opinions and other, equally plausible possibilities in order to avoid cognitive dissonance. That is what a lot of religious people do. For some folks, proof of divinity is not required and uncritical belief is considered a virtue and a sign of one's purity of devotion.

 

At the end of the day, what I learned is that when something like spontaneous knowing happens, say to myself “So what?” And then move on and not dwell on it or try to impart meaning into it. The data comes, I process it and let it go as I would any other sensory data.

Edited April 12, 2010 by SFJane

[Ya Mu]

A general question(s) to those who think seeking special abilities is the wrong way to go...

 

"How big is your ego??"

 

I mean, how can you know what is the best way to go about things for every person in the world???

 

A lot also say it's not the goal but the journey, so the important part (the journey) will happen while they chase special powers.

 

So why not forget their goals and help them start their journey by showing them what they can eventually do?

Even if you believe its not what is important..it will possibly have them start their journey

 

You know who you guys are, so can you answer my questions? (Ya Mu?)

You pickin on me again?

I think you may have confused who said what. I don't think I said "special abilities is the wrong way to go".

 

What I said was that, any talents one has will naturally manifest with the practice. So there is no need to be concerned with "chasing" it. No need to be concerned with being "scared" of them, because these talents are a natural part of you.

 

I did say no need to try to "train" moving things like paper (IMO a waste of time; wrong vibration) if you wish to progress to higher levels. By the very nature of Heavenly (High Level) qigong, there is a mix of things needed to progress. The vibrations attuned to and practiced daily with (see this thread for more on that, posts 228 & 229) practice of Virtue, and walking in the wu wei. And calmness.

 

IMO we should embrace any talents we have and use them within the dance (walking/dancing in the wu wei). This means we project energy when there is a need. We show up at 3 PM at a certain place because there is a need (wu wei dancing = synchronicity). I don't think anyone can walk this path without being spiritually attuned, what I called "alignment with the Light" (Divine, Light, Spirit, Tao). Therefore the practice of Virtue is mandatory to progress.

[april]

[That Guy]

You pickin on me again?

I think you may have confused who said what. I don't think I said "special abilities is the wrong way to go".

 

What I said was that, any talents one has will naturally manifest with the practice. So there is no need to be concerned with "chasing" it. No need to be concerned with being "scared" of them, because these talents are a natural part of you.

 

I did say no need to try to "train" moving things like paper (IMO a waste of time; wrong vibration) if you wish to progress to higher levels. By the very nature of Heavenly (High Level) qigong, there is a mix of things needed to progress. The vibrations attuned to and practiced daily with (see this thread for more on that, posts 228 & 229) practice of Virtue, and walking in the wu wei. And calmness.

 

IMO we should embrace any talents we have and use them within the dance (walking/dancing in the wu wei). This means we project energy when there is a need. We show up at 3 PM at a certain place because there is a need (wu wei dancing = synchronicity). I don't think anyone can walk this path without being spiritually attuned, what I called "alignment with the Light" (Divine, Light, Spirit, Tao). Therefore the practice of Virtue is mandatory to progress.

Well kinda It was general, but I also added your name cause I wanted to be sure you didn't skip it

 

After reading those posts I get what you're saying here. Thank you

 

 

But if moving paper is easy enough, and doesn't develop the wrong kind of energy once you're at high level, might it not be a skill worth having simply as a starter for people? To give them a little push in the "yes there is more to this stuff..", to motivate them. And then as they grow through practice they develop the more essential qualities alone or through your guidance.

 

Healing is more important, you don't really have much without your health (i think), but healing stories don't have as big an impact on 3rd parties, and can be explained away (wrongfully so in this scenario). (And there are plenty that prey on the sick and desperate out there, which makes a lot of people discount them)

 

Like you wouldn't motivate a child and an adult the same way, maybe you could motivate the spiritually immature differently than what you might do to motivate someone as yourself. It might start like "i wanna move objects with my chi/mind too", but it could turn into something far more rewarding for the student.

 

In conclusion, as a teacher, maybe some simple demos like moving objects with your energy could be very useful in creating a new generation of qi gong practitioners and spread good true qi gong knowledge/practice to the world.

 

In the words of the Chunyi Lin "A healer in every family and a world without pain." (who else read that is his voice? )

[Ya Mu]

Well kinda It was general, but I also added your name cause I wanted to be sure you didn't skip it

 

After reading those posts I get what you're saying here. Thank you

 

 

But if moving paper is easy enough, and doesn't develop the wrong kind of energy once you're at high level, might it not be a skill worth having simply as a starter for people? To give them a little push in the "yes there is more to this stuff..", to motivate them. And then as they grow through practice they develop the more essential qualities alone or through your guidance.

 

Healing is more important, you don't really have much without your health (i think), but healing stories don't have as big an impact on 3rd parties, and can be explained away (wrongfully so in this scenario). (And there are plenty that prey on the sick and desperate out there, which makes a lot of people discount them)

 

Like you wouldn't motivate a child and an adult the same way, maybe you could motivate the spiritually immature differently than what you might do to motivate someone as yourself. It might start like "i wanna move objects with my chi/mind too", but it could turn into something far more rewarding for the student.

 

In conclusion, as a teacher, maybe some simple demos like moving objects with your energy could be very useful in creating a new generation of qi gong practitioners and spread good true qi gong knowledge/practice to the world.

 

In the words of the Chunyi Lin "A healer in every family and a world without pain." (who else read that is his voice? )

To each whatever they want to do.

 

To me, it would feel very "icky" and unnatural to do that type of vibration. So no, I do not think those type of demos do anything at all. I don't understand why folks don't think healing a person is more awesome; I surely do.

 

I used to do all sorts of demo's thinking along the lines you are thinking. Didn't do anyone any good - got none in my classes from doing "demo". The only time I have ever gotten a student from "doing a demo" was when I threw qi at this girl who walked up to me and said she wanted to feel qi. I no longer "throw" qi, either, as she was knocked several feet away and lay in an unconscious heap. These are lessons learned in what not to do. I have about beat this subject to death and cannot help anyone concerning this. This is simply not how we train in High Level qigong. If it is in your system go for it.

 

Think of it this way. If one is occupied doing such things that have no reward for others how can they at the same time practice Listening in order to walk in wu wei?

[That Guy]

To each whatever they want to do.

 

To me, it would feel very "icky" and unnatural to do that type of vibration. So no, I do not think those type of demos do anything at all. I don't understand why folks don't think healing a person is more awesome; I surely do.

 

I used to do all sorts of demo's thinking along the lines you are thinking. Didn't do anyone any good - got none in my classes from doing "demo". The only time I have ever gotten a student from "doing a demo" was when I threw qi at this girl who walked up to me and said she wanted to feel qi. I no longer "throw" qi, either, as she was knocked several feet away and lay in an unconscious heap. These are lessons learned in what not to do. I have about beat this subject to death and cannot help anyone concerning this. This is simply not how we train in High Level qigong. If it is in your system go for it.

 

Think of it this way. If one is occupied doing such things that have no reward for others how can they at the same time practice Listening in order to walk in wu wei?

Yeah that is true. And I've beat this subject enough too I guess (for now ).

 

I just don't get whats so "icky" about it, and even if it is icky, many times icky things need to happen so better things can happen as a result.

 

Though I can understand why you'd never do a demo like the one with the girl again, it did get her attention enough to become a student though You don't have to train them for that, consider just the ignition to start their engines.

 

The reward would be starting more people in the healthier path of qi gong, and with the right guidance they might start listening in order to walk in wu wei too.

 

I'm kinda just repeating my points but anyway.

 

And I don't mean this in any bad way (text can be misleading ), but your DVD itself is called Gift of the Tao: Vibratory Acts of Power and not something like Gift of the Tao: Vibratory Acts of Healing or something. Was it because it sounded more attractive?