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@ChiDragon as promised my understanding: OK I will outline how I understand qigong and Neidan. The first thing to say is that it is not my specialist subject but I did study under a Chinese gentleman from Hong Kong who was living in England at that time, about thirty years ago. He taught me a qigong form called 'Nine Rings' and a Neidan mediation called Iron Mountain Lineage to a level where he said I could teach them to others. About 5/6 years ago when I was considering returning to Daoism as a main practice I studied English translations of a number of texts, such as Wang Mu and the Cantong qi, making detailed notes and so on. So I have some slight experience of the subject. The first thing to say is that qigong and Neidan are different. Qigong, which I would call skills in working with qi (in the body) has the goal of wellbeing, that is health and happiness. While Neidan has the goal of making the dan and from that immortality (although I don't think this means necessarily through a physical vehicle). Qigong involves three things. First developing 'sung' with the body. In other words mostly through standing postures you learn to relax the body round its frame such that it becomes a kind of absorbant container for qi. This is a distinct feeling which arises after long standing or sitting postures. Then the regulation of the breath, so it is smoothly in and out and continuous, and thirdly the focussed resting of your attention on the body undistracted by thoughts and so on. When this happens (which takes varying amounts of time depending on the person) you begin to become aware of qi on your body. Then the breathing and movement exercises operate through the three – body movement, breath and attention – all together which circulate and move qi in the body (and beyond as you can also learn to project qi). As to what qi is, well this is difficult to say, in some ways it is an effect and in others it is an agent of change. Calling it energy is not wrong but it's not right either. It is best left as being qi based on experiencing it, not speculating about it. Neigong is just as qigong but without so much of the physical movement. The goal of these two is health and happiness or wellbeing as I would put it. Neidan is different. The usual version of where this came from is that it evolved from WeiDan, that is alchemy using substances to make pills or medicines for health and immortality. But I think it is more likely that the whole project of Dan production began as both inner and outer together and then split into two schools, one dealing with outer substances and the other with inner substances. The Neidan approach retained the technical terms from outer alchemy, like lead, sulpher, cinnabar and so on … but applied them differently. The same was done with the TCM system of channels and nodes – the same terms were applied slightly differently and with different emphasis. So Neidan was quite technical and secret because the terminology was opaque to those who were not initiated. However the main point is the creation of the Dan through 'alchemically' mixing inner substances and then processing it to produce an immortal body. This is quite different to qigong, although they are obviously related because they both deal in the three treasures for instance. The level of intensity with Neidan is quite different. Qigong is basically benign but Neidan can be dangerous if misapplied. Jing is not a physical substance but is the most condensed form of qi before it becomes physical. As the physical is just this, a precipitate of qi. Shen is the most fine form of qi which forms the basis for mental activity. All three are a spectrum of states of qi, like ice, water, steam … are all the same substance in different phases. Knowledge and understanding of qi depends entirely on developing qi sensitivity. If one doesn't have it you are unlikely to understand it properly. But once you have it all philosophical speculations about its nature become redundant.

So true … when alone in solitude I cry out to my master to deliver the blow which will deliver my final awakening .. I pray thus: My loneliness is killing me (and I) I must confess, I still believe (still believe) When I’m not with you I lose my mind Give me a sign Hit me, baby, one more time

Once upon a time, Zena the Poet was asked to describe what it feels like to ride a bike. After a moment of reflection, she recited: Balancing on my butt-bone I press my toes onto the pedals As the wind rushes through my hair A thousand years later, Albert the Learned was seen sitting on a block of wood while smushing flower petals under his feet, with a fan pointed at his head. When asked what he was doing, he replied "I am riding a bye cycle! You probably wouldn't understand it."

One of the first texts that openly (without symbols) discusses this subject, states the neidan teaching (as different from the qigong method) 命蒂从来在真息 It is by Cao Wenyi (1039-1119) and says that the stem of ming is always in True Breath. Of course, what is True Breath is a matter of debate, but it is clear it is not normal breath. I think that northern, southern and central schools agree with it.

As you may see, we are considering establishing a private neidan subforum. Unlike most of the TDB, the contents on this forum would only be viewable by TDB members with 20 posts, would be limited to neidan discussion (based on well-recognized texts, established schools and lineages). In other words, it would be a semi-private place for neidan based discussion. The forum title would be visible to AI and general non-members, but posts and comments would not. Before proceeding down this path, I wanted to open up to community thoughts and feedback. Let us know your thoughts/concerns/issues.

I think it is a good idea, as long as we stick to what is generally accepted as neidan, not everyone’s personal interpretation of it. Accepting the differences of each specific lineage or text’s definition of neidan is fine and healthy, but when it becomes everyone’s individual idea of what they think it is, things will get messy.

It depends if there will be good administration so that qigong or people with esoteric mind - set can't come there and ruin it with their musings and ideas. They can bring forward original texts but interpret it the way they like it. So the discussion will be ruined anyway I am afraid

Not sure what you mean by "channel" in this context. The main method of 炼已 there is https://all-dao.com/jiuyangshengong.html Also there are few more additional dynamic heart - mind purification methods and some static ones. One of them works on yuan jing restoration. What I can say there is NO any breath methods and no much stress on seated one in the beginning. Also there are southern and northern methods in 伍柳派. I only tried to practice northern one for short period of time I did not practice it much and was not initiated into this school so can't say much about it

The Guodian version found in a tomb dates to the late 4th century BC -so maybe 2300 years ago. Even the Wang Bi version is dated to 3rd century AD ( about 1700 years ago) so it is impossible for it to be only 1000 years old. It is easy to look these things up.

I agree that age does not impact validity, but if someone is trying to teach people that Laozi made up the Dao(like a scam) 1,000 years ago, throwing garbage on the whole thing is it really worth smiling about? Ok, unless someone responds to me directly I'm out.

Saying Daodejing is older than 1,000 years feel like an attack on you? I think you would know the age of Daodejing, you have 9000+ posts on a site where Daoism is discussed. This is most basic information. If you weren't throwing baits, then I don't know what to tell you.

But not Toxic I hope.

The dharma is all about removing obstructions!

Miraculous power and marvelous activity Drawing water and chopping wood. (“The Recorded Sayings of Layman P’ang: A Ninth-Century Zen Classic”, Ruth Fuller Sasaki, Yoshitaka Iriya, Dana R. Fraser, p 46) There’s a similar saying in “The Gospel According to Thomas”, a gnostic gospel: Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there; lift up the stone and you will find Me there. (“The Gospel According to Thomas”, log 77; coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, p 43) Sometimes people hold their breath in cleaving wood, or in lifting a heavy bucket or stone. Moshe Feldenkrais observed that some people hold their breath when getting up out of a chair, and he put forward a way to avoid that: …When the center of gravity has really moved forward over the feet a reflex movement will originate in the old nervous system and straighten the legs; this automatic movement will not be felt as an effort at all. (“Awareness Through Movement”, Moshe Feldenkrais, p 78) Feldenkrais stipulated that: … there must be no muscular effort deriving from voluntary control, regardless of whether this effort is known and deliberate or concealed from the consciousness by habit. (ibid, p 76) The paired sayings highlight moments when the weight of the body combines with a singular location of consciousness to cause “reflex movement” in the action of the body. “Reflex movement” can also be engaged to sit upright, as the weight of the body combines with a singular location of consciousness. In Gautama’s teaching, a singularity in the location of consciousness follows “making self-surrender the object of thought”: … the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness. (SN 48.10, tr. Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan) In my experience: …“one-pointedness” occurs when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a singular location in the body, and a person “lays hold of one-pointedness” when they remain awake as the singular location shifts. (Just to Sit) (Drawing Water and Chopping Wood) There's more, in Drawing Water and Chopping Wood--Paul Jung can stop holding his breath.

You need someone more expert than me to go any further on that topic.

I think that sounds good, many of the posts in daoist discussion seem neidan adjacent so i'd be interested to hear more about what specifically goes in which place Also something that might help there is, (as i'm guessing its supposed to attract more high quality info and discussion), an informal rule of the OP stating which tradition they're talking about before bringing up the topic Like Topic: Pore breathing visualization Dragons gate lineage Does anyone have some tips for the visualization when doing WLPs pore breathing exercise vs the current Topic: Pore breathing anyone know how to pore breath bro *15 page flame war with 5 different schools* Something to consider is that very specific topics often only have a few people that can answer the question, and so there tends to be a lot of threads that have no replies, a good example is dharmawheel where theres a ton of empty threads because people are asking things that only a few thousand people on earth can answer Maybe something like, general open discussions of neidan can still go in Daoist Discussion and then the neidan subforum can be used for people who only want that specialized info and are fine with waiting for someone who can genuinely discuss the topic?

Sub forums tend to die of dwindling interactions. Am I correct? especially for a not so popular subject.

OK. If I may I'd like to elaborate a little about breath. The external breath - that of air going into and out of the lungs is first. Now, obviously the lungs are key and they are enclosed in the rib cage. The top of the rig cage to maybe half (?) way down is fixed at the front at the sternum. The lower ribs are not fixed and so can expand a little. Beneath the lungs and across the body is the diaphragm, which is basically a muscle layer. So all of external breathing occurs through the expansion of the the lower ribs and the up down movement of the diaphragm. To breathe in requires no effort except opening the cavity of the lungs by allowing the diaphragm to push down slightly and the lower ribs move outward. The air enters through atmospheric pressure and not by sucking. So no effort, just opening. The out breath requires a slight push against the atmospheric pressure supplied by the contraction of the diaphragm. Breathing should be smooth, unforced and silent. Through the nostrils and not the mouth. The mouth should be closed and the tongue touching the palette behind the teeth. As the diaphragm moves up and down it gently massages the abdominal cavity and the organs in it - the stomach, the liver, the intestines, spleen, pancreas etc. because of this there is a slight expansion and contraction of the belly. But it is important to understand that you cannot breath through the movement of the tummy muscles - any movement here is just because everything is linked it is not the breath. Of course there are exercises where you deliberately contract the belly but that is not really breathing. The internal breath is more important. When you are qi sensitive and you regulate the external breath and rest your unperturbed attention on your body (either generally or specifically on a certain part) the rhythm of the breath actives the qi. You feel a pressure which builds on the in-breath and then circulates out on the out breath. So the external breathing is linked directly to qi movement in this way. If you do it just focusing on the body generally it feels like the whole body is breathing with an alternate expansion and contraction. In the LDT and the MDT it feels like a churning (or that's what I would call it). It is this breathing, qi breathing which many of the Daoist texts are referring to and not external breathing and hence some confusion.

20 or 200 or 2000, I don't think it will help. What might help would be applying a special rule to that forum: only those who could reference their neidan teacher and lineage would be qualified to post. Pipe dream of course. But what passes for neidan discussions otherwise is akin to a plumber teaching a neurosurgeon that the internal carotid arteries supplying blood to the brain should be tackled exactly like the water pipes supplying water to the toilet. After all both carry fluid (or as the case may be in current neidan discussions on the board, "breath"), and therefore there's absolutely no reason to call a neurosurgeon when one needs to regulate blood supply to the brain -- a plumber is fully qualified.

Yes, I agree, that is the commonality of both methods.

A sub-forum could be useful in dealing with crawling bots. But it won't be that private as so many already have 20 posts. And it would not be effective vs. trolling, spamming, bashing and so on.

I had the same experience. Our instruction in nearly all practices was to allow the breath to breath itself naturally, no modification or control involved. That said, changes in the breath do occur over time as one continues to practice.

To answer your question, we need at least 800 hours of discussions and practice together my friend.

Why not give it a try? at most we are back to where we are now.

Thank you very much for your outline. The reason I started this thread is to hear what people know and how they practice neidan. Instead, I did not get any good response like the way you gave. I appreciate your kindness in listening to my thoughts with an open heart. The appreciative response from you with an open mind is admirable. From my bicultural background, I have a better chance to see and hear both sides of the story. I can see that it is much easier for me to hear your story. However, it is not so easy for others to hear mine. It was due to the different exposure of our experiences. It is just a matter of respect for the time you spent on the subject. I will just say a few words in return. Thanks again!

This is a very informative piece that all newbie should read. It is just that I would like to add Neidan involves pre-natal Chi. Purely work on the body like posture/thinking/breathing would not produce the transformative result. By the way is it possible to disclose how did you come across that gentleman in England?

Nei-gong means "internal work" and implies many things including internal and more external work. But some nei-gong systems are miore advanced than more "simple" neidan systems.

Quite true, some schools view manipulation of breathing as lethal. It is why wide reading is essential. A single danitan, a single breathing method is not true.

Would there be some features making impossible copy/paste of the content?

All events on Earth do not happen by chance, including economic and political events. Everything occurs by the will of the Heaven and has its own plan for development and transformation. My thoughts were specifically about this aspect of recent events, and it was a continuation of the thread. The world will not remain the same, whether someone likes it or not

Dharma is made all of the time. I know a number of teachers I interact with that can supply you dharma as good (or better) than any sutra, and DO frequently. Why? Because they understand. Dharma is created moment to moment. You can't escape dharma. It's literally everywhere if you have had the good fortune to have someone point it out. The classic dharma (like the Dao De Jing) gets taught over and over again because realized teachers recognize the skillfulness of those teachings. Scam? The Dao De Jing was very obviously authored by someone with complete understanding, to those that also have it. I am responding to you directly. _/\_

Lower and lower to the lowest places full of humor infected bums.

（《道德经》）的第八章。 描述是： “上善若水。水善利万物而不争，处众人之所恶，故几于道。”

Early this morning i was still half asleep drinking coffee in a shop and the tv was on, and not surprisingly the tv was showing a documentary in a zen place in Japan. The bit i caught was a zen practitioner saying that the Nei... errr, the dharma was even to be found in a stinking noodle, it made the coffee spray out of my nose without obstructions

Your familiarity with her oeuvre is... enlightening!

I have quite different views on these things and I will try to find time tomorrow (it’s after midnight here) to say what they are. You can then if you want critique what I have to say 😊

The Dao de Jing could have been written 5,000 years ago, or 5 minutes ago... it is timeless. All dharma is timeless... exists OUTSIDE of time. A hint: Britney Spears, Donald Trump, and your favorite television commercial are dharma IF you understanding what they are pointing out for you. An example: Your statement has brought to mind the thought that the Dao de Jings age might somehow impact its validity, and if that is somehow an attachment for me. I already gnow that is hilarious nonsense, so I smile. _/\_

Go with the instructions/recommendations from@Trunk. Standing and releasing is a very crucial step in becoming qi sensitive. Also give this video a gander -

The DDJ did not have any punctuation. Inserting a comma and a full stop is misleading.

Yes, for sure when reading this sort of information we can feel provoked or offended and react accordingly. Alternatively, we can consider it simply as entertainment rather than education and leave it be. That has become my approach, when possible. It's just not worth the effort and energy required to argue, knowing rational discussion will not change certain people's opinions. If we are coming here or use AI to learn about how to practice neidan, we have already lost, IMO. On the other hand, we can learn something about ourselves and our ideas when confronted with opposing ideas, no matter how ridiculous or far-fetched they may seem. I think there is some degree of truth and wisdom in bringing neidan and Daoist concepts down to Earth and into our own lived experience, something ChiDragon's perspective can remind us of. Is every neidan text and teaching simply asking us to sit quietly and breath intentionally? Of course not. Having had a dozen years of instruction and correction from a credible teacher, I have my own opinions and understanding, but I do think that many people tend to create mystery and distance between themselves and their views and practice, particularly in Daoist practices and in Chinese internal martial arts.

Very good question! I am glad that you have brought modern science into this. The idea with slow breathing is to replace the oxygen that you was consumed. The reason we breathe is to provide oxygen to the body to so the body won't have a hypoxia condition. The reason we breathe slowly by not exhale too fast to return the oxygen back outside. The slowness in breathing is to keep the oxygen in the lung, so it will allow more time for the red blood cell to collect more oxygen and delivered to the body cells. Like I had said before. 清静無為 does not apply here. Otherwise, it would have the implication that we are just sitting to do nothing and don't do any breathing at all. BTW The practice of 氣功 is 清静有為. The intention to breathe slow is 有為.

I hope this is not from qigong book. I think mods should change the title of the thread. The new title should be smth like "My thoughts on qigong cultivation" Otherwise it looks like trolling

The common tactic among Western teachers is to take the simplest practice possible, overcomplicate it with made-up nonsense, create artificial barriers, and then sell it in tiny pieces for as long as they can. If they didn’t do this, they’d run out of material to teach in a week or a month. I’ve seen Damien “Standing Post aka Zhan Zhuang” course. For about 6–8 hours he teaches almost nothing of value with 99% of the information tied to basic physical posture. He has zero knowledge of the energetic aspects of the practice, no understanding of the upper and lower channels, and he clearly has no clue that you need a specific mental state and develop meditation skills to gain any real benefit from the posture itself. It’s basically like a kindergartener stealing a high-school math textbook written in a foreign language, ripping out all the important chapters, and then teaching other kids how to draw carrots and cucumbers so they can count to 10. In Chinese tradition it's very common to just give students the basic stuff like physical postures and hold back the real 99% of valuable info until the person proves they're trustworthy, loyal, hardworking, talented, etc. That's why you get all these "early graduates" who basically got kicked out by Teacher. The simplest way to ditch someone annoying is to pump up their ego: "You've learned everything, you're a master now, go spread the word!"

In the same way not all use breathing in their method.

Thanks for deleting the messages. No idea why that user was hijacking this thread with that post. Anyway, keep enjoying (or enduring) the Year of the Wood Snake.

LDT breathing is the key to all Qigong method. In Chinese term, Qigong, 气功, is the method of breathing. If you used other definition for Qigong. Good luck in you achievement. BTW The Chinese Taoist had defined LDT breathing for Neidan as follows: LDT breathing is done with reverse breathing. Of course, the normal breathing has to overcome in perfection first. Then, perform the reverse LDT breathing, hereinafter, doing the Neidan practice.