Leaderboard

My 2025 started off rough, by spring I attempted a move. Didn't work out. Late summer, tried another move, didn't go as planned, yet, worked out in other ways. Fall has been good. Beginning this winter much better than a year ago. Reflecting on 2025, personally,,, new found direction. Looking at 2026, looking forward. Knowing, things continue to change. I learned a new way to offer Cheers, salut, etc And to all ya'lls bums, I raise my glass sans clinking Formidable!!

Bah, there’s already a hundred “illuminated translations” out there. Going forward I am happy to represent the quale grokker community.

I would suggest some meditation on what it actually means before translating. For instance why is the invisible that which produces heaven and earth. What is heaven, what earth and so on. Otherwise you are working in the dark so to speak.

PS - some constructive criticism. If you are interested in an English translation that people can comprehend, that helps them understand the original, I would not use the words grok or quale. Only elderly science fiction fans would know the meaning of grok and quale is not a word in common usage.

Two men visit an abbot at a monastery at different times. The first man said, “I’m thinking of moving to this town. What is it like?” The abbot asked, “What was it like in your old town?” The first man responded, “It was terrible. Everyone was full of hate. I did not like it there.” The abbot said, “This town is very much the same. I do not think you should move here.” The first man left and the second man came in. The second man said, “I’m thinking of moving to this town. What is it like?” The abbot asked, “What was your old town like?” The second man responded, “It was wonderful. Everyone was nice and friendly. I was happy. Now, I just wanted a change of scenery.” The abbot said, “This town is very much the same. I think you will like it here.”

Skål, God bless and thank you! The journey continues! '

The characters and translation used by CD are (my highlights and layout): Classical did not use commas (these were inserted by CD). To define a term, they put e.g. 也者 between noun and definition. 無 used as a noun, only had the meaning of 'nothing(ness)'. 有 used as a noun had the meanings: existence; posession, having. "Tao at/as" is not in the characters (it was inserted by CD). Good practice is to put [square brackets] around what you insert into a translation.

My take ( at the moment ... which may change 'as I go along ' ) is ; Heaven and Earth ' signify the primal 'division' from the one - giving us the three . These three ( the one itself and its expression in 2 ) are like the supernal triad and above the 'abyss' (of comprehension ) - hence 'invisible ' . 3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth. But after that , below the abyss , in to manifestation ( of the 10,000 things ) we can see in nature this 'signature ' ( TTC Ch 42, line 5 ) 4. Visible, was a name given to Tao as the mother of all things. Ie . we can see (identify ) the 'cause' ( the mother ) after creation , in the creation .

After many years of practice, the slow spiraling movements of tai chi become part of one´s personality; the habit of deep diaphramatic breathing results in a remarkable steady calm. No doubt this explains why Dao Bums forum members are unfailingly peaceful, remarkably free from the pugilistic impulses that characterize interaction in other corners of the intrawebs. Our tendency towards good cheer and amiability was especially apparent in that area of the site, now defunct, known as "Current Events." Did we always agree with one another? We did not. But even when we found ourselves at extreme idiological odds, we never failed to recognize the humanity and basic good will of our fellows. On that rare occasion when a post resulted in passing annoyance, we looked inward: what unresolved issue within us was responsible for this prick of discontent? Such is the way of the refined heart. And so, with all the gratitude and warm fuzzies I can muster, I raise my glass to you my fellow Bums. May you saunter on into the expanse of the desert or the misty mountains or the bathroom down the hall, wherever your path may lead. Happy New Year!!! LL

It can be difficult to find an English word that means the same as the character and also is as concise as characters are. When English is not the first language, it ican be hard to know if a word one finds in the dictionary is actually well known enough. So I totally understand CD’s reluctance to give up on the quale grokking. But it is incomprehensible. Grok your quale ??? Ah … it’s a typo! It’s ’fock you quail’.

I appreciate your effort but this is not an example of the same character used in the same line twice with different meanings.

Observing the boundary of the visible appears to invoke empirical science. While grokking the quale of the invisible leans towards practices which cannot directly be observed via material science. That's my "water is wet" comment for the day.

Yes, that's how I read it as well, as guidance on how to observe the Tao more objectively. Still only referencing the Wayne Dyer translation, the method is reducing desire so attention isn’t pulled toward outcomes and surfaces. That aligns with wuwei as non-grasping. My point is only that your assertion ‘therefore with or without desire one can see the mystery’ doesn’t apply in the context of the translation we're discussing. But it sounds like we agree on the practical takeaway, even if we’re using different words for it.

In these examples the character translates the same in each case.

Fire from the Heavenly Stem hits the stable where the Horse has been chomping at the bit for 60 years. The Horse jumps out of the burning gate and takes off galloping, mane fiery, tail ablaze. It never fails to leave its hoof prints on the world's politics, economy, and landscape. Here are some of them: 1846 Mexican–American War begins, reshaping the future borders of the U.S. Peasant uprising in Galicia, future Ukraine, engineered by the occupying Austrian empire against the local Polish nobility. 1906 San Francisco earthquake and fire, one of the worst urban disasters in U.S. history. Mount Vesuvius eruption in Italy, a major disaster affecting Naples and surrounding regions. 1966 Cultural Revolution begins in China, profoundly reshaping society and politics. Flooding in Italy destroys a lot of cultural heritage in Florence and Venice. A major escalation in the Vietnam war. 2026 -- ? Of course there were good things happening too. The type of qi known as the Fire Horse can be quite transformative and, under the right circumstances and given the right treatment, energizing, illuminating, and magnificent. But it's the most volatile kind of them all, unpredictable and not easily governable. Let's hope no pale riders manage to mount it.

Chapter 1 The introduction of Tao 1. 道可道，非常道。 2. 名可名，非常名。 3. 無，名天地之始。 4. 有，名萬物之母。 5. 故常無，欲以觀其妙。 6. 常有，欲以觀其徼。 7. 此兩者同出而異名， 8. 同謂之玄。玄之又玄， 9. 眾妙之門。 Revised as of 2-27-12 / 9-28-23 1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao. 2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name. 3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth. 4. Visible, was a name given to Tao as the mother of all things. 5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale. 6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary. 7. These two come from one origin but differ in name, 8. Both are regarded as unfathomable, the most occult and profound; 9. The gate of all subtleties.

Alright, so nothing is hidden to God anyway, so Id like to do a little purging. As my mother used to say, if something is bothering you and you keep it for yourself, the troll grows and grows. Once you let it out, it goes poof. The sun turns the trolls to stone. Further more, I belive autenthicity is healing to all. Hope youll join me. The only thing ill keep for my self, is things that could be hurtfull to groups of people or people who might be reading this. Hope you will join me in this exercise: - today i took morphin - I dont like my family - I wont clean untill it is REALLY neccessery - average screen time last 7 days: 8 hours - I never go to sleep without having a podcast/audiobook/music or likewise in the background, to avoid the stillness - I dont pay bills. (1) Interrest is theft, (2) im broke, (3), I belive that they will just disapear

Yes, quail groping is not endorsed by the QG. I happily pronounce quale to rhyme with kuàilè 快樂

Lao was 'bothered ' by a bird ? You better put that one in square brackets !

I am glad it just isn't me that seems to have trouble getting consistence ( at times even sense ) out of CD .

天 is sky not heaven. 地 is earth. PS What is the TTC all about?

What is heaven and what is earth then?

Something new that one understand. Why not learn it and add them into your memory? Why run away from it? A translation must be done as close as possible. It should not be done to please everyone. I am not making a book for sale. BTW The cultivation of mind is to increase and obtain more knowledge. Learn to accept things as they are rather than change them and move forward. There are lot of new things are coming in the future. Are we going to avoid them? Don't you think we should have some mental updates to do?

To most people it would be incomprehensible

Guru says breath is transformed into Prana, gastric fire/bile (jatharagni) into Tejas, and vital fluid/semen (Virya) into Ojas. These are used in Kriya practice to progress to different states of Samadhi. For more detailed explanation and the correct way to use and develop these would have to be learned from a Guru. I don't suggest trying it yourself without guidance. I personally think I experienced both prana and tejas, no ojas. The difference I experienced was that pranic breath in the central channel (sushumna-nadi) was definitely a wind-like breath without breathing, definitely felt correlated to regular air-breath though. Tejas did not feel like air, wind or prana, it was a slow moving fire-heat that was not in direct correlation to the breath like how that pranic breath was. Kinda. Pranic breath also was hot-cold, but again definitely different in experience. Prana was fast like the breath can be whereas Tejas was slow moving. Ojas is said to drip down from sahasrara, I don't have any experience of that. I think you need to mastered in pranayama first before something like is developed enough to happen.

My observation is that uncontrolled desire operates at a much lower level than that at which the Dao penetrates Existence. Thus the desiring human needs help to perceive the flow of the Dao

It wasn't a challenge. Loatze was only suggesting how to observe Tao objectively. Special note: We must observe the rule of Wu Wei. Loatze advocated everything to be conducted objectively. It is the principle of TTC.

If your example is someone with no desire who intuitively senses the mystery, that doesn’t challenge the premise, it supports it: desire blocks the mystery, and not having desire is what allows the mystery to be perceived.

Thank you for your thought! Good idea, but Tao is observable at this time, therefore there is no need to grok now.

I like the word grok for its similarly to guān

My understanding of this translation is that desire interferes with seeing and experiencing the mystery of the Tao. Desire blocks the mystery; it doesn’t enable it. ‘Whose desire’ and ‘desire for what’ aren’t central here, because the contrast is between desiring and not desiring. From this perspective, desire (ultimately attachment) is a grasping mind-state that pulls attention toward outer edges and surfaces, which makes the subtle harder to perceive.

In maintaining your perspective, I might rephrase it as: “When the Tao is unseen, one observes its inner mystery. When the Tao is seen, one observes its outer edge.” This sharply contrasts the inner mystery with the outer edge. Outer boundary still works well though, I think. Another option is: “When the Tao is sensed, one observes its inner mystery. When the Tao is known, one observes its outer edge.” This carries the idea that conceptual knowledge interferes with intuitive sensing. Sensed takes the place of unseen, knowing takes the place of seen. This version is visually more abstract, but possibly clearer in an experiential sense. I've always been partial to Wayne Dyer’s translation: “Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring, one sees only the manifestations.” I appreciate this one, because it seems to hold the idea that healthy detachment leads to harmony with the Way, and unhealthy attachment leads to disharmony with the Way.

Thank you for your attention. Let's me try another example.

Most of this topic is beyond me. But as a lifelong, native English speaker, I feel confident in asserting that almost no native English speaker would choose this phrasing, least of all if the intent is to be clear as possible. “Grok” and “quale” are abstract, philosophical jargon. A clearer phrasing might be: “to intimately understand the inner experience.”

Oh, yes. Especially in classic. For example: Chapter 71 1. 知不知, 2. 尚矣； 3. 不知知， 4. 病也。 5. 聖人不病， 6. 以其病病。 7. 夫唯病病， 8. 是以不病。 1. One who knows what he doesn't know. 2. Is the best. 3. One who doesn't know but thinks he knows. 4. It's a sickness. 5. A wise man has no sickness. 6. He treated sickness as a sickness. 7. Because he knows his sickness as a sickness. 8. Hence, he has no sickness.

This line is not in the old scripts (Guodian, MWD).

I have not seen any translation using either “spinning” or “blended”. Classical was polysemic, 混 had various tones and various meanings. Sinologist Henricks’ translation of the Guodian (the oldest script known): His translation of the MWD (the next oldest script known): CD’s translation uses the Wang Bi script which is of a much later date; it used to be:

A clean house is the sign of a broken computer. (unknown)

As you may see, we are considering establishing a private neidan subforum. Unlike most of the TDB, the contents on this forum would only be viewable by TDB members with 20 posts, would be limited to neidan discussion (based on well-recognized texts, established schools and lineages). In other words, it would be a semi-private place for neidan based discussion. The forum title would be visible to AI and general non-members, but posts and comments would not. Before proceeding down this path, I wanted to open up to community thoughts and feedback. Let us know your thoughts/concerns/issues.

The current rule would at least require at least a demonstrable source--- i.e. a reference to either a particular school or text (understanding that schools and text may not always agree). If there is enough demand, I imagine we could create some section with those limitations. I don't think we have the software for that, and even if we did, I don't think it would matter. It is fairly easy to take a screenshot and pull text. Pancakes, arrested, hooker.

It is bcoz neidan methods differ, sometime greatly - in some sects there is more emphasis on Xing, in some on Ming so there can be a confusion of ideas. But people who practice same sects methods can come to constructive discussions. I think in most cases it will be Longmen northern methods discussions

Why not give it a try? at most we are back to where we are now.

Okay! Let's evaluate your idea. The lines have a nice contrast, but it did not fit the logic of the first line. 5. 故常無，欲以觀其妙。6. 常有，欲以觀其徼。 5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary. The second line is the exact translation of the original text. The first line does not have an indication it was sensed. It only says when you cannot see it. However, the first line we can only observes its mystery, but not its inner. There was no inner or outer mystery to be observed. Hence, we can only grok its quale is because it's invisible. PS This is the close translation I can get. Unless, someone else can come up with another logical translation with substantiation are welcome. If anyone intended with an hostile attitude, then please don't bother.

I am not all sure that the concept of "God" is particularly useful. It usually leads to religious beliefs and various intolerances. On the other hand "gods" is a bit more useful and there we saw the Nephilim, sons of Anak, of the Nephilim; and we are in our own eyes as grasshoppers; and so we were in their eyes. A couple of days ago speaking to a friend and had an image of her with her feet on a square of limestone. When she connected to the image she was sitting like one of the enormous Egyptian statues of the gods, and she could see the very small humans, not much bigger than grasshoppers in proportion to her.