Kunlun follow up poll

[Ya Mu]

...Also, do you think that all spontaneous practices are equal?

 

My thinking is that different teachers may have tapped into different frequencies and therefore they are not equal...

 

I know you asked freeform for his opinion but here is mine:

You are correct!

[Yoda]

I know you asked freeform for his opinion but here is mine:

You are correct!

 

Ya Mu,

 

I'm glad Freeform brought up the San... they have to live and work with each other 24/7... so they can't sell each other junkie rides!

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[Guest winpro07]

..

Edited April 14, 2009 by winpro07

[Starjumper]

Virus, kunlun worm, evil spirits, demons, black clouds around people - yawn.

 

________________

 

Ya Mu, I saw your reaction to the posts I transfered to here from the Tea House. Concerning spontaneous chi kung, I think the original writer may have gotten the cause and effect mixed up. Instead of spontaneous movement inviting/allowing spirits in, it seems obvious that it is caused by spirit possession, as that is the explanation given for it by all the other religions that have that type of spastic movement.

 

Also, the spastic spontaneous movement are not chi kung by any stretch of the imagination. Formless chi kung is not like that at all.

 

That the two teachers that were reported on are putting (evil) things into their students was an observation by people who are perceptive, and this has been backed up by many here.

 

_______________

 

To the moron who said my observations don't count because I didn't fall for the BS and let the Turdman (people in the know call him Max Turdman) zap me on the eyeballs: I didn't need to go because i could tell what was going on beforehand (remember, I have more energy going out my crown point in one minute than you have going through your body in a day). I also received the following letter which backed it up, and the statements of so many here who have rejected the practice back up this letter too.

 

It was requested of me to not name the school in question. Here's the letter I received (one of many):

 

"In the xxxxxxx school of Taoism, there is an account of a man named Ching Fung Dao Shr -- the Taoist name that Max uses for himself -- who lived hundreds of years ago. This man attained tremendous, other-worldly powers but used them unethically: He gained, for instance, the ability to move people against their will, effectively turning them into his puppets. To make a long story short: Ching Fung Dao Shr died and became a demon. This "Max" may be another incarnation of the original Ching Fung Dao Shr (but even if he isn't, Max's choice for a name is alarming).

 

"As you may know, even demons can practice Taoism and heal people and do seemingly wonderful things... when people are looking.

 

"I hope this shed some more light on the matter."

 

___________

 

Edited to add:

 

Here's another piece of the puzzle which may or may not fit: The way the Tibetans dealt with their demons is they made gods out of them (hold them in high esteem). Maybe something similar is what's going on with their treatment of the Kunlun 'prophet'.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Starjumper7

[Guest winpro07]

..

Edited April 14, 2009 by winpro07

[Ian]

And I had previously penetrated the absolute depths of who I am....

I never had this much karma.

 

Believe me, I'm not trying to argue with you about kunlun. I've stopped it, for different reasons, and I'm frankly agnostic about it.

 

But I'm wondering if you're entirely sure about the above statements. I mean, how would you know for sure?

 

In most traditions, as I understand it, to penetrate to the absolute depths of who you are is job done.

[三江源]

.

Edited July 21, 2014 by cat

[Aetherous]

But I'm wondering if you're entirely sure about the above statements. I mean, how would you know for sure?

 

In most traditions, as I understand it, to penetrate to the absolute depths of who you are is job done.

 

I attained full enlightenment a few years ago, for about a minute, and then lost it. My job's not done, but I was aware of what I had left to do.

[gendao]

Virus, kunlun worm, evil spirits, demons, black clouds around people - yawn.

________________

Ya Mu, I saw your reaction to the posts I transfered to here from the Tea House. Concerning spontaneous chi kung, I think the original writer may have gotten the cause and effect mixed up. Instead of spontaneous movement inviting/allowing spirits in, it seems obvious that it is caused by spirit possession, as that is the explanation given for it by all the other religions that have that type of spastic movement.

 

Also, the spastic spontaneous movement are not chi kung by any stretch of the imagination. Formless chi kung is not like that at all.

 

That the two teachers that were reported on are putting (evil) things into their students was an observation by people who are perceptive, and this has been backed up by many here.

_______________

It was requested of me to not name the school in question. Here's the letter I received (one of many):

 

"In the xxxxxxx school of Taoism, there is an account of a man named Ching Fung Dao Shr -- the Taoist name that Max uses for himself -- who lived hundreds of years ago. This man attained tremendous, other-worldly powers but used them unethically: He gained, for instance, the ability to move people against their will, effectively turning them into his puppets. To make a long story short: Ching Fung Dao Shr died and became a demon. This "Max" may be another incarnation of the original Ching Fung Dao Shr (but even if he isn't, Max's choice for a name is alarming).

 

"As you may know, even demons can practice Taoism and heal people and do seemingly wonderful things... when people are looking.

 

"I hope this shed some more light on the matter."

___________

Edited to add:

 

Here's another piece of the puzzle which may or may not fit: The way the Tibetans dealt with their demons is they made gods out of them (hold them in high esteem). Maybe something similar is what's going on with their treatment of the Kunlun 'prophet'.

Interesting feedback, thanks. I would like to hear more about that Ching Fung Dao Shr legend - any source or more info on that?

 

However, I have actually seen someone possessed by a ghost. It was realllyyy creepy, as they looked totally spaced-out like a classic zombie. Also, I'm not sure that they could snap out of it, if they wanted.

 

But I have not seen any Kunlunners in this state, and any who couldn't stop any kriyas easily at will.

 

Also, Max cannot move anyone against their will. Even he openly admits this. It's more like remote influence with your consent, not remote control against your will.

 

Anyhow, this is not to say any of your suspicions couldn't still be factors, but if so, they would be to a far lesser degree or just more sneakily subtle than you imagine.

Edited April 14, 2009 by vortex

[Trunk]

I think the word "demon" is somehow inappropriate. I think "rascalious reptile" (RR) is more like it. If there's problems like some are suggesting, I think it has to do with being initiated into a broad psychic sort of reptile-village... where maybe there's reliably well intended enlightened nagas, as well as a range of less well intended (perhaps even malicious), and maybe that kind of lineage is kinda wild to begin with. "Demon" tends to connotate flat-out bad and - while there may be some instances of that - I think it mis-characterizes the the broader situation. Clearly, quite a number of people are getting really good results with KL. And, clearly, there's also some troubling trouble.

 

I also don't like the word "slut", but that's a different story for a different thread.

[freeform]

nd I had previously penetrated the absolute depths of who I am, and was in great health.

 

I had much the same reaction as Ian did. Penetrating the depths of who you are and being in great health pretty much seems like you've already accomplished the goal of many schools of spirituality - why add any formal practice to that!? you should teach instead.

 

 

 

Freeform,

 

Thanks for sharing... I was hoping for your take on all this.

 

I can see how a tradition that has intimate, long term, one on one mentoring relationships could negotiate possible trickster vibes.

 

Given that the airspace may possibly contain competing frequencies, is spontaneous practice ok for the average modern world person without a teacher?

 

Also, do you think that all spontaneous practices are equal?

 

My thinking is that different teachers may have tapped into different frequencies and therefore they are not equal.

 

I apologize for being so unrelentingly negative. I'll try to chill out and shut up soon. laugh.gif

 

Your pal,

Yoda

 

Please don't apologise for being negative - I'm of the opinion that negativity is as essential as positivity - it creates balance.

 

Firstly yes - there is certainly a community feel with the Bushmen and similarly with the shakers of St Vincent... even their jobs and roles in the community are decided by callings from the spirit - when the entire community supports this kind of work it makes it seem that the life of someone who chose to awaken a little smoother...

 

I believe that spontaneous practice can certainly be done by someone living in the modern world with all the positivity and negativity that surrounds us (tbh I believe it's the mind trying to trick us to get back in control - "if only X was different then everything would be perfect" this is a classic mind game and it never stands up in court )

 

Life is how it is - there is always as much good as there is bad, it's just always flowing, changing, shifting. It seems to us like we, as modern people living a modern life have a more difficult time with this because that's just what our minds have learnt to do - to control - to control our perceptions, our reactions our environment... when we truly let go and allow spontaneity to take us we are going right against the mind... what we thought was important can become irrelevant - what we thought as 'lucky' can seem unlucky - the whole world is turned on its head.... who you think you are is extremely resistant to who you really are... this is the case with a lot of other spiritual work that 'works' - not just Kunlun. And who you think you are is so entrenched that it is extremely painful and scary when it actually starts to transform - I have felt like I'm going insane, and I've felt like I'm becoming more sane than ever...

 

and again - this is not just with kunlun - this is the case with any other effective, transformative spiritual practice.

 

When we choose to awaken, we chose a difficult road - this is not just fun and giggles (although a lot of that too)... it was stated on the kunlun site and book that you will face aspects of yourself that are difficult to face... and this is so true and I think it's necessary to make this clearer... because of my other 'practices' I knew that this would be the case, but I realise that if you're really unprepared to have your world turn on its head, then it's a very frightening experience.

 

Are all spontaneous practices/lineages equal?

 

I dunno. I'm really not in a position to judge. I have researched the spontaneous thing to death and in most cases it has been said that you will surely go through a 'process' - sometimes of complete confusion, of fear and of difficulty - that's if you're doing it right

 

Practitioners of Ratu Bagus' spontaneous shaking have to go through a 'process'... each is very personal - a lot of the time illnesses show up, vomiting diarrhoea, fevers, chills and many other symptoms show up... you're just meant to carry on shaking through it all - it's all part of the process... then emotional and mental aspects show up and get processed... The practice area is filled with all kinds of spirits, old thought forms and karmic connections seeking resolution... this is what could be in store for people practising any quick path... resolutions need to happen over a much shorter, more intense time rather than taking it calmly and slowly over lifetimes...

 

The mind's nature is sticky - we see negativity and the mind sticks to it, tries to explain it, make it better, or ignore it or argue for or against it - basically anything to make it seem like we're in control again. We come across some good effects and the mind sticks to that - we want more of it, we want to recreate it or re-live the experience. These are all trickster-based actions.

 

Yoda - regarding teachers tapping into different frequencies - yes you're quite right they definitely do... not only tap into different frequencies but also express the frequency in a different way... regarding whether they're 'equal' - which one is 'better' or 'worse' - i think this might be a very simplistic way of looking at it... I have a different personality than my work colleague but better or worse or more benevolent or more evil - this just doesn't enter the equation for me... Firstly I'm not at a level to be able to tell what is what on a very different level...

 

however, I have my own ideas on how to 'overcome' both actual problematic energies and whatever paranoid delusions our mind likes to throw up as a defence for it's little empire of control.

 

1) Love and compassion! Aim for that - always aim for the Big Love - not emotional love, not physical bliss not the 'light' or the 'fire' but overwhelming, unconditional Love. Tapping into Love will bring all that is needed to you and all that is needed for all you relationships (both worldly and other-worldly)

 

2) Relationships! Yes I think a community is important - we need support, we need a mirror for feedback on what is going on with us... this doesn't need to be a commune, it can be a moment that you share with the store clerk or colleague at work - pay attention to all your relationships and you will notice more of them, and you will learn more about yourself. Of course it is also important to establish relationships with people on a similar path... Max would always mention that we must feel like we're in a family. I personally have found a huge relief and help with Jerry Stocking and his work, he knows what it's like to have 'who you think you are' slowly dissolve and de-construct into 'who you really are'.

 

3) Your inner teacher... That is, tap into your True Self - don't channel 'higher beings' or whatever, channel your True Self and allow it take take the reigns... it's hard and scary. Love has a lot to do with this too...

 

Regarding Max - I have felt his compassionate, unconditional Love - not in anything he did or said or taught, but in the spaces in between. Love is the most important part of this work - as the Bushmen elders say - bring your heart up to your mind. One must see through Love, experience through Love... widom and power and all that may or may not be a part of this, but focus on Love, because that's the surest direction.

 

Yoda, I'm so sorry you had such frightening experiences. I'm sure a part of you wanted the cool, strange stuff to manifest, but when it does it's becomes more than we can handle - I know this very well!! (pshh - women ) . 'Seriously' though - begin to allow some Love through and whatever the problem is, it can start to ease up... you can also use the Inner Smile to begin to bring Loving, compassionate energy into your body... when the body is full start to smile to all that is around you - the problems, entities, all the successes and failures, your family, friends and relationships.... after a time this becomes more spontaneous... This is the advice I would give myself if I was in your position

Edited April 14, 2009 by freeform

[三江源]

.

Edited July 21, 2014 by cat

[gendao]

Good points, all...

 

Again, I'm not sure that "spontaneous qigong kriyas = spirit possession." I think there is a difference.

 

For example, here's an Indian "SQ" practice that bears a lot of similarities to Kunlun:

Kriya Yoga

SIDDHA-YOGA where involuntary yogic movements take place in the body and the human being has no control over them (He can't initiate or stop these movements as per his will). These movements take place in that particular organ only, which is not fully functional and thereby making it perfectly healthy and immune to all ailments in the future also.

(Although, I seriously doubt that these kriyas really couldn't be stopped at will, as claimed.)

 

But this guru has had untold number of students...so if they were all getting possessed, you think you'd have heard more about that?

 

I guess one test is to see if others from comparative SQ practices or teachers (like Jenny Lamb) also experience the same "dark phases" (health issues & life mishaps) as Kunlunners? Or "creepy" dreams and entity visits? If so, then they are probably due to the inherent nature of SQ practices themselves, not so much the teachers or their "baggage." If not, then it may have more to do with particular teachers than the practice itself.

 

 

Cat - Interesting. I have an "inactive" Kunlun friend who recently had a dream about a big snake laying on top of her.

Edited April 14, 2009 by vortex

[Ya Mu]

 

Ya Mu, I saw your reaction to the posts I transfered to here from the Tea House. Concerning spontaneous chi kung, I think the original writer may have gotten the cause and effect mixed up. Instead of spontaneous movement inviting/allowing spirits in, it seems obvious that it is caused by spirit possession, as that is the explanation given for it by all the other religions that have that type of spastic movement.

 

Also, the spastic spontaneous movement are not chi kung by any stretch of the imagination. Formless chi kung is not like that at all.

 

That the two teachers that were reported on are putting (evil) things into their students was an observation by people who are perceptive, and this has been backed up by many here.

 

 

I am not defending the Kunlun or Max - Don't know either one.

 

But to put all spontaneous forms in the same category is nonsense. I don't really call what I teach "spontaneous qigong". Some people have called it that. It is a system where people move (never seen much "spastic") called Stillness-Movement and it is NOT caused by spirit possession but by direct high-vibrational energies. We have a sitting form and a a standing form. But the energies DO move the practitioner. It appears that you and the OP are trying to lump everything together. Furthermore, out of more than 2,000 students I have not seen a single case of spirit possession happening after the practitioner learned this system. To the contrary, it PROTECTS against such a thing. All systems are not created equal.

 

Did the teachers involved put evil things into the students? Of course it is possible. More likely it just opened them up before they were ready to deal with such things. But in either case it is not really difficult to deal with IF the effected student finds a real teacher to help them.

 

This post by Yoda puts a perspective on things:

Also, do you think that all spontaneous practices are equal?

 

My thinking is that different teachers may have tapped into different frequencies and therefore they are not equal.

 

 

edit: added this reflection from freeform:

 

.... who you think you are is extremely resistant to who you really are...

 

YES!

Edited April 14, 2009 by Ya Mu

[Machin Shin]

 

It's like saying you want a 'cake'... well... a slice of madeira, or some chocolate fudge?

Cake, It is as simple as.

 

One of the highlights from working with the Kunlun taoist path was living in a Teashop for a Fall and practicing taiji in the plaza. The Teashop owner had a working medical practice, and I was finishing the Short forms of the Clearwind tao shih. I also taught an anger management class at the same time.

 

The yin would be drunk angry men that had to be there, the yang was older people that wanted to be there.

 

That was a decent fall for me. All sorts of people would stop in and share Taiji.

 

Joining pieces of wood to make a house that will withstand a lightning storm.

Open the door and enter.

The threefold flower guides thru the wind,

Travel the ways to harmony.

 

The threefold flower white with understanding.

Each segment grows the next branch.

The center radiates directly to each path of growth.

 

A poem from a vision of lotus born.

 

 

 

 

wind blows the lotus leaf

[三江源]

.

Edited July 21, 2014 by cat

[Yoda]

Rascalicious Reptiles!!

 

I think my path is a bit like Scotty's except that I didn't have the one minute enlightenment thing before... nothing too shocking or frightening in and of themselves but those sorts of experiences plus hearing accounts like this:

 

this makes sense to me, from my own experience, and those that live with me. I had the love of snake and making love with reptile thing going on, my son had a vision of the cosmic web, which he didnt even know about until he saw it, and someone more mixed up in my house had nocturnal visitors who were trying to get inside him..

 

and hearing even crazier second hand kunlun stories made me go "hmmmm."

 

Don't get me wrong: I love crazy stories... but many of these crazy stories didn't seem very life supporting or compassion enhancing to me. If that's the case then I'd rather that my family, friends, and I didn't associate with this sort of thing.

 

The thing that tipped the balance is that the real life experiences of myself and many of my Kpals didn't seem as auspicious as they could/should be: problems with relationships, economics, health, subtle energy issues, luck, motivation levels, and quirky little things and encounters.

 

I came to the conclusion that this practice has problems that are beyond tweaking or inner smiling at least as far as I am concerned. According to my daughter after discontinuing the practice, ghost activity at the house has dropped dramatically and she's much more comfortable.

 

Yoda

[topflight]

who you think you are is extremely resistant to who you really are

 

This is so true and not only in the spiritual practice arena we are working on. After I turned 40 I was somewhat unhappy for several years, but I could never find a cause. Everything else was good, relationships, family, career, so why wasn't I happier?

 

At a counseling session with one of my mentors, he pointed out that who I had become did not match up with my perception of myself. I had maintained an old perception of who I was even though it was making me unhappy. Once I let go of that and accepted who I had become, I felt much better.

 

It is amazing what a good teacher can do for you.

[gendao]

Pandora had been given a large jar and instruction by Zeus to keep it closed, but she had also been given the gift of curiosity, and ultimately opened it. When she opened it, all of the evils, ills, diseases, and burdensome labor that mankind had not known previously, escaped from the jar, but it is said, that at the very bottom of her box, there lay hope.

Guess one question is...have you gone too far, or just not far enough?

[Cameron]

..

Edited April 17, 2009 by Cameron

[freeform]

I came to the conclusion that this practice has problems that are beyond tweaking or inner smiling at least as far as I am concerned.

 

Yoda

 

Oh I didn't mean to suggest that you should carry on with kunlun - I think that whatever decision you have made is exactly the right one to have been made!!

 

I was just suggesting that real, unconditional Love is as great a cure as there is for 'creepiness'.

 

I would really like to hear more from others that had actual problems that can be directly linked to the practices done correctly...

 

I know Gloria had problems with the practice, mainly caused by incorrect use of the RP technique. And Scotty had problems of ill health come up when he practised (which could just be a part of the 'process'). Dizzydazzle mentioned some energetic problems - I would be interested in his perspective...

 

Personally I have had few problems... I still get ill though... I've been coughing up a lot of stuff and my sinuses keep 'clearing'... emotionally it has actually helped me a lot! I have not had any 'visitations' or anything 'creepy' like that...

 

I remember I was once planning to buy a laptop - and as I like being very thorough and researching carefully anything I bring into my world, I found a forum dedicated to this specific laptop... searching through the forum all I would find would be problems - pretty much every post was about some kind of problem or some kind of solution - every now and then there would be a post about how happy someone was with theirs... this usually was a rather excited, not very in-depth post - no real information... very quickly it would be knocked down to the bottom of the pile...

 

So basically it became apparent that this was the most problematic laptop you could get... untill I met a few people that had it - were perfectly happy with it, didn't have any problems and had no need to go on the forums... it suddenly dawned on me how skewed the impression I got from the forum was... most people that have nothing major to report just don't bother trying to communicate that. (this is something to bare in mind - but of course the problems themselves need to be aired too)

 

Something funny just came to mind to illustrate 'creepiness' - I was reading an account of an experience by a Bushman hunter that he was propelled straight up a giraffe's anus and into its guts - so as well as funny, I suspect this could be quite scary, as well as creepy to most of us... The hunter, however celebrated inside the giraffe's intestines by dancing and shaking... the belly is where the giraffe keeps its n/om (qi) and this was a symbolic connection between the hunter and the giraffe's power... he received a gift... would I see this as a gift if this happened to me?

[Machin Shin]

I bow to Lord Yama!

 

Rascalicious Reptiles!!

 

and hearing even crazier second hand kunlun stories made me go "hmmmm."

 

 

Would you recount some of them?

Here is one of mine

 

A nice spring day at the park. I had been talking with Anastasia (Chris's ex-wife) and heard that the inner practice had turned into watching the WCW. Kira(traveling female student) was giving Max(Clearwind taoshih) a hard time about being a skinny white man, and that he'd have problems fighting the wrestling star

The Rock(Dwayne Johnson).

 

So I come walking into class and use the People's Elbow on Max. His response is a furious use of whirlwind palm(maoshan pai technique). He then starts doing push hands with John (close disciple).

As I stand there watching the Tao their shadows disappear and reappear.

Whoosh a whirlwind of envy, which pretty much ends class.

 

As the students start to walk away from class I have enough presence of mind to my karmic duties by offering a payment of tea. As this exchange is happening a huge wall of wind rises behind the Clearwind taoshih and hits us as the tea is exchanged.

 

Nobody hurt each other, but there was a little bit of dirt in my eye as I walked home.

 

Whirlwind palm is an interesting technique....but I'm more interested in the sunflower seed story.

 

May all sentient beings benefit.

[Yoda]

I love you man but you have been doing all kinds of projecting on this

 

 

Cam,

 

You could well be right... I'll shut up once I've out gassed... if only I could project on my own time!!

 

 

Would you recount some of them?

 

Machin Shin,

 

I doubt I'd be allowed to share them. While those experiences got me wondering about things, other reasons got me to pull the plug on it. Who's Lord Yama?

 

Your pal,

Yoda

[fiveelementtao]

 

Don't get me wrong: I love crazy stories... but many of these crazy stories didn't seem very life supporting or compassion enhancing to me. If that's the case then I'd rather that my family, friends, and I didn't associate with this sort of thing.

 

I came to the conclusion that this practice has problems that are beyond tweaking or inner smiling at least as far as I am concerned.

 

Yoda

I strongly support your decision to stop KL. It comes down to what is best for each of us. I have never bought into the idea that Kunlun or ANY practice or religion is a path to enlightenment. I think the whole concept of enlightenment is BS. Life is a journey. It is about progressing on the path to maturity throughout many lifetimes (IMO).

Edited October 14, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[Yoda]

nice!