sahaj

Authentic Tantric/Taoist sexual yoga teachers

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I am looking to find a good teacher for learning Sexual Techniques for the purpose of liberating energy in the body and spiritual practice within the context of Sex. Can any Taobums out there point me in the right direction with this? The field of "tantra" is so full of imposters and half-baked teachers out there it is hard to discriminate, and could use some help in searching. I've only been using information from books mainly Mantak Chia.

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I've only been using information from books mainly Mantak Chia.

All one needs based on my experience...oh, and genuine intent.

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Very difficult field.

 

http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/neotaoism_and_karezza

 

I think this article and that whole site is important to read to understand how to realy go about these things.

 

Trunks site alchemicaltaosim.com has a lot to say about the taoist sexual practices that is important to know.

 

Most people on thetaobums seem to agree that doctor lin (I think it is Lin) teaches a technique far better than mantak.

 

You should also know that retention practices ar notoriously difficult to integrate well. People often end up with lots of very raw yang energy and need to transform this into more yin but don`t know how. In general it is the non aroused foundational practices that lay the basis for mastering these techniques and for integrating the result. Particularly non aroused practices that has a yin quality are essential. Important general advice is to not go very slowly in increasing the time between ejaculations if you practice retention.

 

The Biel technique for blending hart and sexual energy described on Trunks site is supposedly very important for integrating the sexual energy well and after experimenting with it I can definitively see why.

 

I do not think tantra as a path to enlightenment is accessible in any way for other than those who are already extremely attained. In Tibetan and yogic tantra you already need a quite deep realisation of emptiness to use sexual tantra as an enlightenment path in itself (read George Feuerstein and Dalai Lama about this). This means that all the neo tantra people are deluding themselves into believing what they practice is a real path to enlightenment. What they actually practice is advanced indian sexual reflexology. But as long as one does not imagine these things are more than they actually are I do think such sex can be both spiritual in itself and higly beneficial energetically as a support for your other practices, the other practices that will actually get you to enlightenment.

 

I have heard good things about Leora Lightewoman and I think Diana Richardson is pretty good. Most tantra teachers are deluded nut cases and don`t know anything about real tantra. However, they might still teach sexual practices that are very good for giving deeply loving, spiritual and energetically beneficial experiences, it just does not have anything to with real tantra which is way to advanced for most of us and more about careful investigation of reality like in high level Vipassana rather then just advanced lovemaking.

 

I would check out AYP

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Very difficult field.

...

Excellent post. Many good points. Well said.

 

~ later edit ~

http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/neotaoism_and_karezza

 

I think this article and that whole site is important to read to understand how to really go about these things.

Read the article, glanced at the site.

That guy is up on science and conveys it easy-to-understand.

Interesting read.

Edited by Trunk

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I am looking to find a good teacher for learning Sexual Techniques for the purpose of liberating energy in the body and spiritual practice within the context of Sex. Can any Taobums out there point me in the right direction with this? The field of "tantra" is so full of imposters and half-baked teachers out there it is hard to discriminate, and could use some help in searching. I've only been using information from books mainly Mantak Chia.

 

Are we talking sexual practices or tantric practices? The word Tantra means "technique" and can apply to any energetic technique or ritual. the word tantra is very misunderstood in the West. The whole idea of Tantra meaning sexual practices came about because some westerners have gone to India, learned some pseudo sexual practice and came back to the states and called it "tantra." In it's original context, Tantra almost always refers to Celibate energy cultivation. usually it refers to religious rituals where the practitioner seeks to identify their ego with a particular diety. In these instances, sexual acts are done very infrequently and only for the purpose of calling down a particular diety. tantra is about spiritual power, not sexual liberation.... Tantric masters almost always are celibate. An authentic tantric master would teach you how to fuse the sexual energies within your own body while being celibate for many years.

 

what you're talking about is not really tantra... I'm not saying anything against sexual practices, just being a knitpicky word policeman...

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Are we talking sexual practices or tantric practices? The word Tantra means "technique" and can apply to any energetic technique or ritual. the word tantra is very misunderstood in the West. The whole idea of Tantra meaning sexual practices came about because some westerners have gone to India, learned some pseudo sexual practice and came back to the states and called it "tantra." In it's original context, Tantra almost always refers to Celibate energy cultivation. usually it refers to religious rituals where the practitioner seeks to identify their ego with a particular diety. In these instances, sexual acts are done very infrequently and only for the purpose of calling down a particular diety. tantra is about spiritual power, not sexual liberation.... Tantric masters almost always are celibate. An authentic tantric master would teach you how to fuse the sexual energies within your own body while being celibate for many years.

 

what you're talking about is not really tantra... I'm not saying anything against sexual practices, just being a knitpicky word policeman...

Sexual practices within the huge web of tantra was what I was referring to :)

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Sexual practices within the huge web of tantra was what I was referring to :)

 

You may have misunderstood my post. tantra is a yogic word. In the modern western world, It has incorrectly been fused with other practices like taoist sexual practices. Taoist sexual practices are different from Tantric practices. Traditional tantric yogic sexual practices (extremely rare) are done maybe once a year on auspicious dates and only under specific ritual situations. The expressed purpose is to call down the energies of specific dieties for worship. The participants are not encouraged to experience sexual pleasure. If they do, the power of the tantra is lost. You would need to be celibate the rest of the time practicing rigourous internal cultivation, mantra etc... According to the wording you used in your original post,

Sexual Techniques for the purpose of liberating energy in the body and spiritual practice within the context of Sex
is not the same as traditional tantra in the yogic sense of the word.

As you correctly stated in your original post, the average run of the mill "tantric" sexual practices that can easily be found on the web have no connection to actual tantra practices. It is a misnomer to call sexual practices tantra. That is my point.

The sexual practices you are seeking are not tantra. It is more Taoist. You're best bet is to go the Mantak Chia type of route for personal sexual energy techniques. That's why I asked, are we talking sexual practices OR tantra. They are not the same. Again, I have nothing against sexual practices.

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This is an important point that only an honest person will tell you:

I do not think tantra as a path to enlightenment is accessible in any way for other than those who are already extreemly attained. In Tibetan and yogic tantra you already need a quite deep realisation of emptiness to use sexual tantra as an enlightenment path in itself (read George Feuerstein and Dalai Lama about this). This means that all the neo tantra people are deluding themselves into believeing what they practice is a real path to enlightenemnt.

There are so many pre-requisites, and as Marken says, a "deep realisation of emptiness" is necessary.

One reason why people who try this practice can have too much residual yang tension is because when they 'retain' they are retaining not only physical substance (jing), but they are retaining the heat of lust and desire with it.

 

The most important thing is to work on quelling lust and desire. Lust and desire is 'hot', it is unrefined and unclean. So if one practiced retention with lust, it is bound to be dangerous. It can really become "re- tension"

 

Venerable Master Hsuan Hua says:

"As for one who practices tantra, if he has no sexual desire, it is all right. If he has desire, then he is just the same as a common person.........There must be no thoughts of sexual desire.

To do the tantric practices, one must neither be a piece of wood nor have desire. It is really not easy. Because it is so difficult, it is extremely dangerous. But most people like it, and use it to cover up their own "inner conflicts."

Edited by mat black

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The word "tantra" does not mean "technique". It means something like "a thread" or something that continues like one.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantra

 

I've seen GIH in action, so I will only reply once. Looking the word up on wikipedia is not research or experience. Tantra literally means "loom" with the idea that the threads of different techniques are spun on a loom to create a whole and has the practical connotation of spiritual methodology.

 

It comes from two sanskrit roots Tan+ Tra i.e. "method that carries one to infinity"

 

here is the defintion from the online sanskrit dictionary

Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon: Search Results

1 tantra n. (Pa1n2. 7-2 , 9 Ka1s3.) a loom , v , 2 , 70 ; the warp RV. x , 71 , 9 AV. x , 7 , 42 TBr. ii Ta1n2d2yaBr. x , 5 S3Br. xiv Kaus3. MBh. i , 806 and 809 ; the leading or principal or essential part , main point , characteristic feature , model , type , system , framework S3Br. xii Ta1n2d2yaBr. xxiii , 19 , 1 La1t2y. Ka1tyS3r. &c. (e.g. %{[email protected]} , `" the principal action in keeping up a family i.e. propagation "' MBh. xiii , 48 , 6 ; ifc. `" depending on "' cf. %{Atma-} , %{sva-} , %{para-} , &c.) ; doctrine , rule , theory , scientific work , chapter of such a work (esp. the 1st section of a treatise on astron. VarBr2S. i , 9 ; Para1s3ara's work on astron. , ii , 3 ; vii , 8) MBh. &c. (cf. %{SaSTi-} &c.) ; a class of works teaching magical and mystical formularies (mostly in the form of dialogues between S3iva and Durga1 and said to treat of 5 subjects , 1. the creation , 2. the destruction of the world , 3. the worship of the gods , 4. the attainment of all objects , esp. of 6 superhuman faculties , 5. the 4 modes of union with the supreme spirit by meditation [436,2] ; cf. RTL. pp. 63 , 85 , 184 , 189 , 205ff.) VarBr2S. xvi , 19 Pan5cat. Das3. Katha1s. xxiii , 63 Sarvad. ; a spell HYog. i , 5 Vcar. ; oath or ordeal L. ; N. of a Sa1man (also called `" that of Viru1pa "') A1rshBr. ; an army (cf. %{-trin}) BhP. x , 54 , 15 ; ifc. a row , number , series , troop Ba1lar. ii f. vi ; = %{rAjya-t-} , government Das3. xiii S3is3. ii , 88 ; (%{[email protected]} , `" the highest authority "') Subh. ; a means which leads to two or more results , contrivance Hariv. ii , 1 , 31 ; a drug (esp. one of specific faculties) , chief remedy cf. %{-trA7vApa} ; = %{paricchada} L. ; = %{anta} L. ; wealth L. ; a house L. ; happiness W. ; (%{eNa}) instr. ind. so as to be typical or hold good Ka1tyS3r. xvi , xx ; (%{A}) f. for %{-ndrA} Sus3r. ; (%{Is} cf. Pa1n2. 5-4 , 159 Ka1s3. ; %{I} L.) f. = %{-ntI} Gobh. iii , 6 , 7 and BhP. iii , 15 , 8 (v.l. for %{-ntI} ; see also %{vatsatantrI}) ; the wire or string of a lute S3a1n3khS3r. xvii La1t2y. iv , 1 , 2 Kaus3. &c. (%{-tri} R. vi , 28 , 26) ; (fig.) the strings of the heart Hariv. 3210 (v.l.) ; any tubular vessel of the body , sinew , vein Pa1n2. 5-4 , 159 ; the plant %{-trikA} L. ; a girl with peculiar qualities L. ; N. of a river L. ; cf. %{ku-tantrI}.

2 tantra

3 tAntra mf(%{I})n. having wires (%{ta4ntra}) , stringed (a musical instrument) W. ; regulated by a general rule A1pS3r. xiv , 12 , 5 f. ; relating to the Tantras W. ; n. the music of a stringed instrument R. i , 3.

Edited by fiveelementtao

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You may have misunderstood my post. tantra is a yogic word. In the modern western world, It has incorrectly been fused with other practices like taoist sexual practices. Taoist sexual practices are different from Tantric practices. Traditional tantric yogic sexual practices (extremely rare) are done maybe once a year on auspicious dates and only under specific ritual situations. The expressed purpose is to call down the energies of specific dieties for worship. The participants are not encouraged to experience sexual pleasure. If they do, the power of the tantra is lost. You would need to be celibate the rest of the time practicing rigourous internal cultivation, mantra etc... According to the wording you used in your original post,

is not the same as traditional tantra in the yogic sense of the word.

As you correctly stated in your original post, the average run of the mill "tantric" sexual practices that can easily be found on the web have no connection to actual tantra practices. It is a misnomer to call sexual practices tantra. That is my point.

The sexual practices you are seeking are not tantra. It is more Taoist. You're best bet is to go the Mantak Chia type of route for personal sexual energy techniques. That's why I asked, are we talking sexual practices OR tantra. They are not the same. Again, I have nothing against sexual practices.

 

Are you saying that Taoist sexual practices have nothing corresponding within Indian Tantra? I would have thought that using sex as a way to open energy to the divine would be the same in either context. Obviously the current Indian social environment of sexual repression (you can go to court for kissing! this happened a couple of weeks ago), any sexual practices are going to be driven well underground. I don't think this was always the case in ancient india. Maybe the Kama Sutra is closer to the taoist practices?

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Are you saying that Taoist sexual practices have nothing corresponding within Indian Tantra?

That's exactly what I am saying. In India, there are many different types of yoga. Yoga means union. It does not mean stretching. What we call yoga in the West is Hatha Yoga and is only ONE type of yoga. In India a yogi is a mystic, or wizard or someone that seeks to unite with the Infinite and may not ever practice Hatha yoga. Tantric yoga is another type which also has many different subsets. It has to do with using tantras or methods to achieve a particular goal. Tantra is usually connected to magic, power, mysticism. Other types of yoga frown on tantra because it is seen as dangerous. Tantra also does other things that would curl your hair such as performing rituals with dead bodies. For instance, a tantric sexual rite may involve digging up a corpse performing a ritual and having sex on the grave while chanting a mantra etc... For reasons like this many other yogis would badmouth tantrics by saying they were debauched sex-crazed maniacs. Well, when westerners heard that tantrics indulged in sex and drink and drugs, they went to learn "tantric yoga." They went to India seeking to learn tantra and were taught nonsense involving sex. They came back to the West and started promoting "tantric yoga" and "tantric sex" and that is what we have come to believe tantra is. The same is true for yoga. In India when someone wants to study energy work, they seek out a "yogi" and ask to be accepted as a student. The first thing the yogi will teach them is hatha yoga. Which is where the stretching and breathing comes from. This is the forst step top prepare the body and nervous system for the real yoga. That is only the first step. Real yoga is rarely taught even in India, much less to westerners... Well, westerners went to India and asked to learn yoga and were taught Hatha Yoga. After a few years, they came back to the West and started teaching "yoga" not ever knowing that they were only taught the rudimentary beginnings of yoga. And today we have "yoga booty ballet" video tapes, people spending their entire lives bickering over minute differences in stretching postures etc... Real yoga has nothing to do with this. Tantra is in the same category of misunderstood nonsense...

Maybe the Kama Sutra is closer to the taoist practices?

the kama sutra is about sexual techniques, not about tantra. Tantra is very serious and potentially very dangerous magical worship of deities. Kama Sutra is about sexual pleasure. If it were a tantra, it would be called Kama Tantra not Kama Sutra.

Obviously the current Indian social environment of sexual repression I don't think this was always the case in ancient india.
Yes sex has always been strictly regulated. India is a very strict culture. The idea that India is this, hippie-like free society is another misconception in the West. Edited by fiveelementtao

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Vajrasattva, what is KAP 2?

 

 

KAP 2 outline:

 

CHi Sets 5 - 9

1) Intro to advanced Breathing, Hair breathing, Organ Breathing,

2) Testicular & Ovarian Breathing + Secret Smile

3) Bone Pump Pelvic Spine Cranial Subtle Breathing

Joint & Rib Breathing/ Chi Packing in Orbit/Chung Mo Belt Orbits (BumChen),

4) Advanced Walking Concepts

5)Advanced Visualization Meditation - Secret Sword

6) Secret Sword & Tummo , 1 finger ZEN

7) Moving the Hilt & Blade & Circulations

8)Male & Female Deer Excercises

9)Upper & Lower Tantra

10) Combining Orbits & Chakra Breathing w/ Secret Smile

11)Bone Breathing, Building spirals & Vortex with in energy field & with in channels & Bones.

12)Wisdom Breath

13)External Chi Concentration

14)Meridian Massage Yin & Yang Building energy

15) Soft Touch & Grid Healing with Secret Sword

16)The Hidden Way (Using sexual energy & imagery to reach Enlightened states)

17) Higher Tantra Chakra Puja & Meditation & Offering, Tantric Healing during love making

18) Yab Yum

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Fiveelementtao, thank you very much for making this extremely clear to me... I personally appreciate it.

 

God! gunna have to post preview my posts before I'm done with them... getting use to re-editing them right soon after they are posted.

 

I didn't mean to come across in a way that insinuates sahaj doesn't appreciate what fiveelementtao is saying.

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I am looking to find a good teacher for learning Sexual Techniques for the purpose of liberating energy in the body and spiritual practice within the context of Sex. Can any Taobums out there point me in the right direction with this? The field of "tantra" is so full of imposters and half-baked teachers out there it is hard to discriminate, and could use some help in searching. I've only been using information from books mainly Mantak Chia.

 

 

Bearing in mind what has been said in this thread about what "real" tantra/tanric sex is and the dim prospects of using it as a path to enlightenemnt, there are excellent ways to achieve deep sexual experiences that I would absolutely term spiritual. These experiences will not in themselves lead to enlightenment, but they hae the potential to create deep bonds, feelings of unity, love and loads of pleasure. That in turn and the way one works energeticly contributes to working on your energetic body in ways that support any path of meditation/alchemy/yoga etc. The tecnhiques for retention of sperm are potentialy realy helpfull in saving energy otherwise lost during intercourse (a lot). The aspect of conciously exchanging energy helps balance both the man and woman and this can be realy helpfull on the spiritual path (you get more yin energy and guys usualy need that).

 

To achieve these a bit more realistic goals tehre are good techniques and teachings but also this stuff is potentialy very problemtatic if one goes about it in the wrong way. The core of this stuff is basicly the retention of sperm during intercourse - the multiorgasmic man techniques. This done right is excellent but most people do not do it right. Firstly, as mentioned, use Lins and not Mantaks technique. Secondly, the article I posted clarifies a lot of the problems with how people aproach this. You can make love quite freneticly, tense and "yang" but still block the sperm and have realy cool multiorgasms. However, the energy built through this style of lovemaking is different than the one gotten with very slow concious lovemaking where you realy surrender. The energetic difference probably mostly means that the baqlance of dopamine and oxcytocin is wrong. The orgasms you do want are the streaming valey orgasms that can only be braught about by deep relaxation and surrender. apparently if done right a man does not even need any technique to avoid ejaculation with this style. However, even other more active lovemaking styles and instances were you need some technique to either block or at least redirect the energy will produce the right energy and the desired oxcytocin etc. You just need deep enough awareness/surrender/being able to yield enough. Thus this article (and Lao Tsu apparently) are key in pointing you in the right direction. Combine this with Lins techniqe and you are on your way. However, as mentioned it is the non aroused practices that lay the basis for actualy mastering this stuff and for mastering them safely and for putting the aquired energy to good use instead of letting it wreck havock in your body. What these other techniques are is not very important. The point is to build enough awareness, emotional balance, have a healthy enough body and to have some way to transform energy that is too much yang. So most styles of meditation work, particulary emptiness meditations like Vipassana, Zen. Anything that teaches you to circulate energy in the orbit and gain control of energy works. Anything that realy works your hart and hart chakra and allows that energy to spread to the rest of the body (and preferably blend with the sexual energy) works. Anything that realeses physical and emotional blocks in the body works. Michale Winns basic stuff is fairly good for this. Trunks site as said is very good. The technique of blending hart and sexual energy is suberb. In the long run I have heard several tantric teachers say that it is the energy of the hart and the degree og inner stilness/depth of awarenss that balances out the sexual energy.

 

One of the most important points is to not go any longer without ejaculation than you can go safely without getting too much unintegrated energy. After some time at a certain frequency you can build further.

 

In general it seems to me that a lot of the problems encountered with retention by people on this site stems from the two different styles of lovemaking the Karrezza article talks about. When people say that Ching energy is difficult to deal with and often creates problems I think usualy the problem is actualy that there is to much dopamin and too little oxcytocin. To little streming valley bliss and to much multiorgasmic bang. If the right style is used the energy is mostly prepared for integration already. It is interesting to note that oxcytocin is a love hormone and hence connected to the heart and since many teachers say it is the energy of the heart that balances out the sexual energy there seems to be a strong connection hear. More heart centered love making does a lot of the alchemy by itself. The karezza people seldom seem to have the same energetic problems as experienced here and most of them do not have cultivation experince to smooth things out.

 

I would like to underline that one need not use the Karezza technique but it is more the general aproach the place you are seeking to go mentaly and energeticly that is essential. Apparently this points in the same direction as Lao Tsu.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh and stay a million miles away from the tantra organisation Natha. It is quite cult like and wrecks havock on peoples lives (a bit of research on the web will confirm this)

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Here is a tantric guru speaking about what tantra is in his tradition. He doesn't even understand when a westerner asks him about "tantric sex" at 6:58. The western idea of a sexual technique called "tantric sex" is not even in his vocabulary. Nevertheless, he gives a wonderful explanation of the union of Shiva and Shakti, (yin and Yang)...

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Here is a tantric guru speaking about what tantra is in his tradition. He doesn't even understand when a westerner asks him about "tantric sex" at 6:58. The western idea of a sexual technique called "tantric sex" is not even in his vocabulary. Nevertheless, he gives a wonderful explanation of the union of Shiva and Shakti, (yin and Yang)...

 

I agree with you fiveelementtao, but I do have to say that sex is included in some of the Tantras (not only in the Vama Marga paths that you mentioned) as a means to awakening. For example the Kashmir shaivite's Vijnana Bharav Tantra. So I understand you point well that 99.999 percent of Tantra has nothing at all to do with sex (at least directly :)) but within that tradition there are teachings that use sexual intercourse with a partner as part of the practice that doesn't include digging up corpses and such :). I am no expert in this field, but I'm not a total beginner either, that is why I am asking the questions. Thanks for your input and clarification.

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Mike,

 

In Advanced Yoga Practices (aypsite.org), which I practiced for a while, they talk about the key ingredient of tantra being brachmaya (sp?)- preservation and cultivation of sexual energy, In practice, this involves 'staying ahead' of the orgasm. It is a part of the larger practice of awakening kundalini- those who are very sexually active would be losing too much prana (at least men) and slowing down the process. For myself, I have felt a subjective difference practicing this method when I have retained for a while and when I have not- I go much deeper when I've been retaining, it seems. I wonder what your thoughts on this are?

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I've seen GIH in action, so I will only reply once. Looking the word up on wikipedia is not research or experience. Tantra literally means "loom" with the idea that the threads of different techniques are spun on a loom to create a whole and has the practical connotation of spiritual methodology.

 

It comes from two sanskrit roots Tan+ Tra i.e. "method that carries one to infinity"

 

here is the defintion from the online sanskrit dictionary

Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon: Search Results

3 tAntra mf(%{I})n. having wires (%{ta4ntra}) , stringed (a musical instrument) W. ; regulated by a general rule A1pS3r. xiv , 12 , 5 f. ; relating to the Tantras W. ; n. the music of a stringed instrument R. i , 3.

 

You focused on definition 1. I prefer definition 3. In the circles where I hung out, translating tantra to thread was more common.

Edited by goldisheavy

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Mike,

 

In Advanced Yoga Practices (aypsite.org), which I practiced for a while, they talk about the key ingredient of tantra being brachmaya (sp?)- preservation and cultivation of sexual energy, In practice, this involves 'staying ahead' of the orgasm. It is a part of the larger practice of awakening kundalini- those who are very sexually active would be losing too much prana (at least men) and slowing down the process. For myself, I have felt a subjective difference practicing this method when I have retained for a while and when I have not- I go much deeper when I've been retaining, it seems. I wonder what your thoughts on this are?

 

no doubt exists in my mind at all at this point that ejaculation depletes energy, and that conservation of that force is incredibly important. This is based on my experience. The issue for me is that conserving is one thing and doing something with that energy during sex is something else. Should we Bring it up to the heart and "steam" it?, Bring it to the head and "brain orgasm"?, melt into the experience of blissful surrender...etc. because I am a long term student of Yoga and Taoism just recently, I am making a synthesis of both ways. Kind of blazing my own trail. I know others have done the same and that is what is so great about this forum. We have our own trails to carve but others can point a direction and we can choose that if we want.

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