Master Nan & Bill Bodri - circulation being a waste of time

[joeblast]

Master Nan goes to far in saying no qiigong master has even reached the first dhyana.Huh?!! Also confining the entire Vajrayana path to the garbage heap is selective thinking at best (although I personally am not attracted to it). Also he says Zen produced more enlightened masters than any other path but says now there is no qualified students; So he puts the blame on the students, not the Zen path? Something fishy about that, not just the non-sequitor sentence.

 

Nevertheless, using the jing-chi-shen framework, one assumes at at a chi-shen level, a formless level, which is entirely mind, paying attention to the body and qi, the realm of form, is counter productive. So I wouldnt mind if Vajrasattva or someone could elucidate a bit on that, if at a certain level the movent excercises become pointless. I think that that is Nan's main point.

If I recall correctly, your reference omits a key point: Master Nan stresses achievement of stillness and realization...and it was that he said unless one can truly achieve stillness, no qigong master would even be able to reach the first dhyana. I'll have to go back and search for it, but that's how I interpreted it...I just finished reading Working Towards Enlightenment recently.

[orb]

 

As for Gurdjieff's "kundabuffer" -- yes I've read Gurdjieff A LOT -- his final book (unfinished) gives his further views on the Kundabuffer but it was the most central idea in his magnum opus -- Beezlebub's Tales.

 

 

Though impressive that you have read Beelzebub's Tales (not Beezlebub's) you understood exactly the opposite my friend:

First of all, "kundabuffer" is an organ that we don't have anymore as it has been removed long time ago so you can't open smth that you don't have.

Second, it was meant to determine people to "see the reality upside-down" and although it served a good purpose for the moment in the history when the terrible accident happened to our planet - it turned out to be the worst invention for the humanity with devastating consequences for our souls(psyche), consequences that we can't get rid of to this very day.

Third, Gurdjieff has nothing to do with the taoist practices and concepts like "cultivation/circulation of chi" etc. so why bother mentioning him at all.

[Vajrasattva]

 

Third, Gurdjieff has nothing to do with the taoist practices and concepts like "cultivation/circulation of chi" etc. so why bother mentioning him at all.

 

Although I agree wth you on the usage or bringing up G as Drew seems to do like his in fallable Lotus Pose...

 

 

i am sure however that G's breathing & Movements he learned from the real Sufis would make one see the relevancy. Sufi Breath work is VERY much about cultivation & Circulation its all about accuiring the dzat (grace or essence) from ALLAH.

[orb]

[voidisyinyang]

Well I was surprised to read in the interview with Master Nan, Huai-chin that I posted above -- he's SMOKING! haha. Still he (or his translator) says to Ken, the Westerner getting the meditation lesson:

 

"I don't know whether you want to be in the lotus position, whatever."

 

Now when he says "lotus position" you can be sure he means FULL LOTUS because that's what Master Nan, Huai-chin does all the time, as anyone knows who reads his two classics:

 

WORKING TOWARDS ENLIGHTENMENT and

 

REALIZING ENLIGHTENMENT

[styrofoamdog]

Drew, by your logic, we should all be occasional smokers, because Nan Huaijin smokes from time to time. Still waiting for a quote from him stating that full lotus is the key to cultivation.

[voidisyinyang]

The contradiction in your statement is this:

 

"by your LOGIC" and then this "Still waiting for...." In your past post you wanted PROOF - waiting for "proof."

 

Logic is not dependent on proof! Logical inference is the source of all other logic and meditation is based on logical inference -- from LOGOS -- the inference of the source of sound or the "I-thought" as pure consciousness beyond spacetime. Proof is an external Western concept based on empirical evidence -- and creates the psychological condition of the "commodity fetish" since the left-brain logic of proof is deduction through induction (not just logical inference). So left-brain logic relies on external measurements (made with right-hand dominance) as "proof by contradiction" (which excludes pure logical inference). This left-brain logical dominance REPRESSES the right-brain which connects with the rest of the body through the emotional processing of the right-brain.

 

LOGOS is logic as right-brain inference -- when you LISTEN to the source of the I-thought -- or as Master Nan, Huai-chin states -- focus on the question, "Who Am I?" -- then the left-brain dominance, through logical inference, resonates as complementary opposites (pure number as nonwestern harmonics). When you sit in full-lotus you ALSO resonate the body and mind as pure number nonwestern harmonics (the full-lotus is the tetrahedron made up of 4 equilateral triangles, each made up of two 2-3-4 triangles with 2:3 as the perfect 5th harmonic or yang and 3:4 as the perfect 4th harmonic or yin).

 

It's not "my" logic -- it's the logic of inferring the source of sound as complementary opposite resonance. There's nothing to wait for -- consciousness is ALWAYS-ALREADY -- before time and before space. You can't SEE it as "proof" or something you "buy" -- as in spoiled consumer of fetishized products. You can LISTEN to pure consciousness based on logical inference. That's what sitting in full-lotus does most effectively.

[styrofoamdog]

The contradiction in your statement is this:

 

"by your LOGIC" and then this "Still waiting for...." In your past post you wanted PROOF - waiting for "proof."

 

Logic is not dependent on proof! Logical inference is the source of all other logic and meditation is based on logical inference -- from LOGOS -- the inference of the source of sound or the "I-thought" as pure consciousness beyond spacetime. Proof is an external Western concept based on empirical evidence -- and creates the psychological condition of the "commodity fetish" since the left-brain logic of proof is deduction through induction (not just logical inference). So left-brain logic relies on external measurements (made with right-hand dominance) as "proof by contradiction" (which excludes pure logical inference). This left-brain logical dominance REPRESSES the right-brain which connects with the rest of the body through the emotional processing of the right-brain.

 

LOGOS is logic as right-brain inference -- when you LISTEN to the source of the I-thought -- or as Master Nan, Huai-chin states -- focus on the question, "Who Am I?" -- then the left-brain dominance, through logical inference, resonates as complementary opposites (pure number as nonwestern harmonics). When you sit in full-lotus you ALSO resonate the body and mind as pure number nonwestern harmonics (the full-lotus is the tetrahedron made up of 4 equilateral triangles, each made up of two 2-3-4 triangles with 2:3 as the perfect 5th harmonic or yang and 3:4 as the perfect 4th harmonic or yin).

 

It's not "my" logic -- it's the logic of inferring the source of sound as complementary opposite resonance. There's nothing to wait for -- consciousness is ALWAYS-ALREADY -- before time and before space. You can't SEE it as "proof" or something you "buy" -- as in spoiled consumer of fetishized products. You can LISTEN to pure consciousness based on logical inference. That's what sitting in full-lotus does most effectively.

So in other words, you can't cite any examples of Nan Huaijin stating that full lotus is essential for cultivation.

Edited August 3, 2008 by styrofoamdog

[voidisyinyang]

Master Nan, Huai-chin is considered the best living Ch'an master. Taoism, like Buddhism, is based on DESIRE (literally OF FIRE -- or how the full-lotus BURNS KARMA).

 

Suffering is created by Desire so seek out the source of desire and end it. You do not DESIRE to read Master Nan, Huai-chin and therefore you can not end your creation of suffering. Master Nan, Huai-chin devotes his two main books to how Buddhism has been warped into just conceptual practice without transformation of the body. Master Nan, Huai-chin details how sitting in full-lotus demonstrates that the body has been transformed and he states that he can sit in full-lotus all the time without feeling anything -- and that he does so. He also gives numerous examples of other Ch'an masters who sit in full-lotus all the time.

 

With no self there can be no proof and your desire for proof is therefore non-existent. That which remains is empty awareness. Consciousness is neither the body, nor the mind -- neither within, nor without.

 

I can do NOTHING and therefore you are correct.

[jaloo]

Master Nan, Huai-chin is considered the best living Ch'an master.

 

By Who?! Was there an announcement I missed?

[voidisyinyang]

Well here's how Bill Bodri puts it:

 

Now these are pretty heady comments on "Master Nan," as just related, but I hear them time and again. Whether or not his material is worthwhile, you should know by now that the true enlightenment insight -- as opposed to samadhi insight -- is rare indeed. Most "masters" or "spiritual adepts" you may meet only have samadhi attainments or emptiness insights -- if they have achieved any cultivation attainment at all -- and this individual has been recognized as awakened by both the Zen school and school of Esoteric Buddhism, not to mention Taoism as well.

 

That's pretty rare.

[styrofoamdog]

Master Nan, Huai-chin is considered the best living Ch'an master. Taoism, like Buddhism, is based on DESIRE (literally OF FIRE -- or how the full-lotus BURNS KARMA).

 

Suffering is created by Desire so seek out the source of desire and end it. You do not DESIRE to read Master Nan, Huai-chin and therefore you can not end your creation of suffering. Master Nan, Huai-chin devotes his two main books to how Buddhism has been warped into just conceptual practice without transformation of the body. Master Nan, Huai-chin details how sitting in full-lotus demonstrates that the body has been transformed and he states that he can sit in full-lotus all the time without feeling anything -- and that he does so. He also gives numerous examples of other Ch'an masters who sit in full-lotus all the time.

 

With no self there can be no proof and your desire for proof is therefore non-existent. That which remains is empty awareness. Consciousness is neither the body, nor the mind -- neither within, nor without.

 

I can do NOTHING and therefore you are correct.

Nan Huaijin is a very respected Chan Buddhist master and teacher, but I believe your claim on him being considered "the best" is pretty presumptive. Nobody knows who the most advanced cultivators are, and there is no consensus within Chan Buddhism that I have ever heard about.

 

Also, Daoism and Buddhism are based on desire? Where did you get this from? When I read Daoist classics, they don't mention desire as being of primary importance. The framework of desire/suffering is largely one from Buddhism. And with Buddhism, I believe the correct way to state your point would be that it is aimed at ending desire/suffering. Also, I would like you to back up your claim that full lotus "burns karma" with a reference from one of Nan Huaijin's books.

 

What causes transformation of the body? Is it simply sitting in a posture? No, Nan Huaijin teaches that the transformation of the body is ultimately in the refinement and quieting of the mind and breath. He teaches that when the mind achieves stillness and the breathing is refined, Qi arises and moves naturally. The Qi transforms the body and gradually clears the channels in the legs. Simply stretching and contorting the legs is not enough. As you wrote yourself, being able to sit in full lotus comfortably is only a demonstration that the Qi channels have opened. By trying to use this as your argument, you are confusing the result with the cause.

 

And again at the end, you devolve into pseudo-intellectual masturbation because you have can't point to an instance one of Nan Huaijin's books where he states that full lotus is essential for cultivation.

[Vajrasattva]

By Who?! Was there an announcement I missed?

 

 

exactly by who????

[jaloo]

Well here's how Bill Bodri puts it:

 

Now these are pretty heady comments on "Master Nan," as just related, but I hear them time and again. Whether or not his material is worthwhile, you should know by now that the true enlightenment insight -- as opposed to samadhi insight -- is rare indeed. Most "masters" or "spiritual adepts" you may meet only have samadhi attainments or emptiness insights -- if they have achieved any cultivation attainment at all -- and this individual has been recognized as awakened by both the Zen school and school of Esoteric Buddhism, not to mention Taoism as well.

 

That's pretty rare.

 

So you are positing that Nan is "the best" because Bodri says he is and that most other masters pale in comparison? Or because you feel that master Nan supports your full lotus pineal juicing obsession?

 

The only rare thing about such a statement is that someone would make it or believe it. Its good marketing though.

Edited August 3, 2008 by jaloo

[Ian]

Just to drag the thread a few steps in the general direction of its initial issue:

 

It was initially a question about the value of circulation vs emptiness practice. And it was interesting to see how quickly that became interpreted as a question of movement vs sitting.

 

Where in fact it seems to me much more a question about mental manipulation and trying to do things in practice.

 

It is very possible to do movements without any intent. Or conversely, to sit very still and yet be striving very hard.

 

I still think the foundation of all practice is to get back into your damn body, from whatever realm of imagination or intent one has spent the previous few thousand years in.

 

But anyway. La la la.

[voidisyinyang]

Well Master Nan, Huai-chin emphasizes -- in the talk I posted here -- CONCENTRATION versus EMPTINESS.

[cheya]

Hi Nomad,
Well, I for one am stuck on the pursuit of the wind chi sensation, and conversely, not very focused on sitting or quiet meditation. If you're interested in the connection between Taoist thought and cultivation of chi, check out Waysun Liao's book, Chi:How to Cultivate Your Life Energy. He is a native speaker of Chinese and studied with a Taoist monk as a teenager. Thirty years ago he wrote The Tai Chi Classics, which has been translated into seven languages. He has been teaching tai chi in the Chicago area for thirty odd years. For a more intergrated explantion of how he sees cultivation of life energy related to Taoist understanding, check out another book he wrote: Nine Nights with the Taoist Master. Changed my life. I reviewed it in the books section here, and there are a number of excellent reviews on Amazon.

All the best,
 

[Smile]

So you are positing that Nan is "the best" because Bodri says he is and that most other masters pale in comparison? Or because you feel that master Nan supports your full lotus pineal juicing obsession? The only rare thing about such a statement is that someone would make it or believe it. Its good marketing though.

Ok, I guess I have to clear this up. Bill doesn't claim Nan is "the best" nor Nan claims he is "the most enlightened". If you told him that, he would probably laugh very hard and change the subject.

 

Bill Bodri is a good guy but people take stuff out of the whole picture and so it may look like he against something. One must understand that when he talks about "a waste of time" he talks about getting to stages of dhyana and enlightenment. Without meditation, it's impossible.

 

Master Nan was a regional champion in taiji for many years when he was in his 20's. I even have a very old video of him doing a form. He also knows Daoist Alchemy including the real Daoist tantra.

 

The fact is, most of the evolved Zen masters I've met were the masters of some moving art - taiji, sando, etc.

 

Master Nan doesn't say you have to get into full lotus although it's a very good posture for meditation. I never heard from Bill on this subject. Vipassana people don't care about it either.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Smile

[gendao]

The true source contains EVERY truth & EVERY master including the 7402 KUN LUN (which the kunlun masters equals to 4 really.....if you know what your are counting ).

 

KNow here is a question for you lets see how far the rabbit hole goes............

 

are the KUN LUN masters Jinn?

 

If so who do the Jinn serve?

How does 7402 = 4?

 

And interesting question...what's the answer? Aren't Jinns demonic spirits or something? I dunno, I just remember seeing some YouTube vids on Jinn possessions, lol.. Here, they sound more human-like, though:

The jinn are among the creatures that Allah (swt) created. Allah (swt) created angels, jinn, mankind, animals, plants and others. Jinn have some qualities like human beings. These qualities are intellect, discrimination, freedom, and the power to choose between right and wrong, between true and false, as well as between good and bad.

 

 

And as far as movement vs. stillness:

 

Let's not also forget that motion is all relative. So, even when you are sitting still, you are still spinning and hurling through space in solar and galactic orbits!

 

The Earth rotates at up to 1000 mph.

Orbiting around the Sun at 67,000 mph.

Orbiting around the Milky Way Galaxy at 487,353 mph.

[Vajrasattva]

How does 7402 = 4?

 

And interesting question...what's the answer? Aren't Jinns demonic spirits or something? I dunno, I just remember seeing some YouTube vids on Jinn possessions, lol.. Here, they sound more human-like, though:

And as far as movement vs. stillness:

 

Let's not also forget that motion is all relative. So, even when you are sitting still, you are still spinning and hurling through space in solar and galactic orbits!

 

The Earth rotates at up to 1000 mph.

Orbiting around the Sun at 67,000 mph.

Orbiting around the Milky Way Galaxy at 487,353 mph.

 

 

7+4= 11 , 1+1 = 2 , 2+0 =2 , 2+2 = 4

 

you get?

 

 

 

 

Let's not also forget that motion is all relative. So, even when you are sitting still, you are still spinning and hurling through space in solar and galactic orbits!

 

The Earth rotates at up to 1000 mph.

Orbiting around the Sun at 67,000 mph.

Orbiting around the Milky Way Galaxy at 487,353 mph.

 

 

Correct!

[sheng zhen]

7+4= 11 , 1+1 = 2 , 2+0 =2 , 2+2 = 4

 

you get?

oooh, numerology!

 

What do you make of that the number of the Kunlun lineage equals 4?

[thelerner]

Breath circulating - good.

Blood circulating - good.

 

Chi circulating - probably good So the question is whether it should be mentally pushed or left alone to do what it wants.

 

Sometimes I push it, doing the microcosmic orbit feels like an inner mantra. Mostly I leave it alone to do what it wants.

 

 

Michael

[voidisyinyang]

Well when Jim, the student of "john chang" pushes the chi he was taught and confirms it feels like taking a dump.

 

Of course that's the MACROCOSMIC orbit. I also can confirm this feeling -- done while in full-lotus.

[Vajrasattva]

Well when Jim, the student of "john chang" pushes the chi he was taught and confirms it feels like taking a dump.

 

Of course that's the MACROCOSMIC orbit. I also can confirm this feeling -- done while in full-lotus.

 

 

in some of the more esoteric Bagua schools the packing the orbit is done likethis. But NEVER to extremes.

 

It should feel more like orgasm than a "DUMP".

[voidisyinyang]

Master Nan, Huai-chin actually won't talk about REAL samadhi -- nirvakalpi samadhi. All he said is that you see the stars even though it's the middle of the day and that you travel into outerspace. Other than that he says it's against his vows and also the experience is indescribable -- but he does say that first you have to open all the body's channels and fill the body with electromagnetic energy and this is demonstrated by sitting in full-lotus.

 

I had my first precognitive "O at a D" today -- the words of my female partner were the same as those that appeared in my brain last night for no reason. Last night I was wondering why I all of a sudden heard this voice say "I'm coming! He's coming!" She said the same thing to her friend plus "don't move" -- so her friend wouldn't block the flow of energy haha. Of course this was worked into her conversation so it didn't seem to apply to me except that she said it right before we had the "O at a D." Then right when we climaxed I suddenly remembered what I had experienced in the middle of the night but had forgotten until then -- the same mysterious phrase which was a total surprise at the time.

 

So that's another full-lotus secret. It's a continual orgasmic experience with females but sometimes the desire is so strong -- so full of heart energy -- that it's predicted to happen in the future through a vision or sound-message. The two females I had the full-lotus precognitive "O at a D" with were Indian -- accent and culture, etc. Their heart energy was strong.

Edited August 6, 2008 by drew hempel