Is the MCO Real? (Split from Benebell Wen on the Microcosmic Orbit)

[Cobie]

 

2 hours ago, Apech said:

I find this emphasis on belief a bit odd ...

 

In your post. you are conflating to unrelated things. Of the people saying MCO is a belief system, some belief there is a metaphysical dimension, some don’t. 

 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Cobie

[Apech]

30 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

 

In your post. you are conflating to unrelated things. Of the people saying MCO is a belief system, some belief there is a metaphysical dimension, some don’t. 

 

 

Sorry I don’t understand what you mean.

[forestofclarity]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

some belief there is a metaphysical dimension, some don’t. 

 

You don't need to believe in anything. It is something that you experience first hand or you don't. The vast majority of people never experience it, but a significant number who engage in certain practices or even go on meditation retreats do. We can relate those experiences to specific concepts and world views, but it is unnecessary. But it certainly not a belief any more than it is a belief that fire feels hot. 

 

[Sahaja]

I used the term substances in my original post to reflect my understanding that there are a number stages (like 9 or 10) that circulate different “things” - perhaps one could say different qualities and mixtures  of qi and Jing.  Most of this is way, way beyond my level and the process takes place over many years. I also understand that there are different approaches to this  that evolved separately with some not using this term. 
 

 My limited understanding is that it arises on its own - sometimes completely - sometimes with some small intention just before it circulates  (attention, mudra etc to build pressure and connect ren & du). However even when intention is used, 90% of the circulation is on its own with you not consciously or physically doing it - with ldt and other points acting independently of your conscious physical control to move it through. In my limited experience sometimes the pressure inside is very strong, other times it’s more just a feeling of energy circling that is still physically strong enough to move/sway your torso. It’s pressure, independence from conscious control, independence from the breath and its other physical effects makes it’s clear to me that it is very different than tracing channels intentionally with awareness and the breath based on my experience with using that channel tracing/breath  technique in yoga in the past. 

I don’t generally worry too much about what qi is because the people that developed these practices viewed it as everything (it existed undifferentiated before the division into yin and yang and the 10,000 things).  They also said when you name things you limit and distort them which is not particularly helpful from a cultivation perspective that is based primarily on listening and release.  Having said that it is nice to learn about the different qualities of these different stages so you have an idea where you are in the process. However I think it’s better to have the experience first and later get the explanation for obvious reasons. This requires self control of the intellect that wants to ask a 1000 questions in an effort to be in control of the process that only really works (or at least works better) when you don’t try to control it. It also requires one to have trust in the guide and have one worthy of that trust.. Ultimately these processes are designed to take one beyond the intellect so knowing everything intellectually isn’t that helpful and being too much in the head can be a barrier. 

 

[Taomeow]

7 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

Some say Chi is information.   When the information hits at a certain point, the point and the surrounding area light up.   It is why people feel the warmth, tingling, itchiness, pressurize, see light..... once the appropriate area is activated with information.   

 

 

I would say information is part of what qi is/does, but my understanding is that "pattern" runs deeper.  When someone yells "fire!" in a theater -- that's information.  But if there's no pattern consistent with that information (heat, flames, smoke, etc.) it may mean we have a prankster on our hands, or misinformation, or a mistake, or malicious intent, and so on.  In other words, information is open to interpretation, while pattern is independent of interpretation.  It just is what it is and does what it does. 

 

A practitioner of taoist arts and sciences observes the pattern and discerns its meaning -- and then interprets the resulting information.  That's one reason we're not as hung up on names as some other practitioners are.  My teacher, e.g., used to call the taiji move known as "White Crane Opens Wings" simply "Big Bird" -- but because the students were able to observe the pattern of that move, they didn't interpret it as an invitation to imitate the muppet character known as Big Bird.   Likewise, I didn't know anything about the MCO when I had to buzz off my hair (normally long) because I had a distinct feeling that "that thing" running up my spine gets tangled in my hair and tickles most annoyingly.  (I still have an old expired driver's license with a picture of me with that uncharacterisic hairstyle.  Every time I see it, I'm, like, "what was I thinking?" -- and then I remember.  And now I have the words for that...  "oh...  that's what it was, "'it'" was trying to go through the yuzhen 玉枕, and since that gate is perhaps the biggest obstacle in the orbit to overcome, '"it'" was sort of chipping away at the passage...  and hair being in the way was, of course, a subjective interpretation of the sensations.)  

 

 

[Master Logray]

48 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

I would say information is part of what qi is/does, but my understanding is that "pattern" runs deeper.  When someone yells "fire!" in a theater -- that's information.  But if there's no pattern consistent with that information (heat, flames, smoke, etc.) it may mean we have a prankster on our hands, or misinformation, or a mistake, or malicious intent, and so on.  In other words, information is open to interpretation, while pattern is independent of interpretation.  It just is what it is and does what it does. 

 

 

The idea of pattern is quite suitable for acupuncture, acupressure or Dao Yin.  A certain trigger is applied, a pattern of events come about.  But for cultivation, I am not sure.   If the LDT is heated up, different patterns could occur, Chi can go up, horizontal or down.  I mean the acupuncture is more for the desired end result.   While cultivationwise, Chi going somewhere is normally only a mid point.  

[Apech]

5 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

The idea of pattern is quite suitable for acupuncture, acupressure or Dao Yin.  A certain trigger is applied, a pattern of events come about.  But for cultivation, I am not sure.   If the LDT is heated up, different patterns could occur, Chi can go up, horizontal or down.  I mean the acupuncture is more for the desired end result.   While cultivationwise, Chi going somewhere is normally only a mid point.  

 

This is not my system so I wait to be shot down in flames but doesn’t the patterning come from shen rather than qi?

 

 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

This is not my system so I wait to be shot down in flames but doesn’t the patterning come from shen rather than qi?

 

 

 

It comes from wuji (tao-in-stillness) transforming into taiji (tao-in-motion) also going by Xiantian and Houtian.  Yang floats upward, yin sinks downward.  That's the beginning of heaven and earth.  "In the heaven images arise, on earth they take shape," as the Ta Chuan explains it.  (Unlike in all hierarchical systems, it's not "heaven first, earth later," it's a mutually dependent and simultaneous process.)    And then every step of the way the pattern gets refined/complicated -- up to 64 steps times five times eight and their ten thousand combinations...  and that's the outer border of a meaningful pattern.  Beyond it lies Hundun, where there's no pattern.  Chaos.  Plenty of information, no meaning.  

[Cobie]

 

21 hours ago, Apech said:

can you explain why you think the MCO is a belief? Thanks.

I already did.

At:

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/57453-is-the-mco-real-split-from-benebell-wen-on-the-microcosmic-orbit/?do=findComment&comment=1065775

and:

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/57453-is-the-mco-real-split-from-benebell-wen-on-the-microcosmic-orbit/?do=findComment&comment=1065844

 

9 hours ago, Apech said:

Sorry I don’t understand what you mean.

It’s all there. 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

6 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

You don't need to believe in anything. It is something that you experience first hand or you don't …

 

I experience the metaphysical, have done for 35 years now. I also have had ‘experiences’ that turned out to be hallucinations brought forth by my own mind.  I prefer to say I believe in the metaphysical. 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

13 hours ago, Apech said:

The ideas that qi is just oxygen and that meridians are nerves is a result of this I think.

 

Just for the record I was trained up to degree level in science and my father was a scientist.  So I have some experience of the hard edge of that world.  I understand it reasonably well.  It is very effective (including medical science) at its own level.  But it does not allow for subtle levels or bodies etc.  However I think it can be observed that although medical science is effective at dealing with a range of things - a side effect is to push the problems to somewhere else - hence the massive rise in things like autism, allergic reactions, immune diseases and so on.

Well, we cannot put a blanket definition for chi as oxygen. Chi means breathing in Qigong that the west has never tell it like so. It was a poor translation of Chinese masters to snow everyone. They just make that up so that can tell their story. That is why the west got stuck that Chi is energy, nothing but energy, and ignored the rest of the vast definition. We have lots of newcomers saying that they practice Qigong. I believe that they don't even know what Qigong means. I do not have any reason to believe that someone could give me a good definition of Qigong. BTW Qigong(氣功) was only known as "energy work" in the west. Sigh, it was assumed that Chi is  energy again; and gong(功) translated as work. However, gong really means the effect or efficacy. 

I believe in the scientific method to prove things since I had learnt that in high school. Especially,  I was an electrical engineer and become more close to modern scientific approach to look at things. I can only deal with whatever people say as beliefs without proof.  

In another site, I was talking to a biochemist about cell respiration which he knew nothing about and said that is not his field. I was surprised. Since that is related to his field, he doesn't even bother to look it up or curious about it. He was just blindly believes the non-scientific stories about Qigong that is speculating around the world. Sigh! 

[steve]

Thank you all very much, my father has been very ill and passed early this morning. 

I value all of your good wishes and friendship.