Is the MCO Real? (Split from Benebell Wen on the Microcosmic Orbit)

[ChiDragon]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

gas is a phase of matter , but yes oxygen is a substance - what point are you making?

If any external substance moves in the body. It would be the oxygen. Someone said that substances move along the Du and Ren meridians during MCO. I am not sure about that. Are both meridians orbiting by themselves or substances orbiting along the meridians?

[Apech]

39 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

If any external substance moves in the body. It would be the oxygen. Someone said that substances move along the Du and Ren meridians during MCO. I am not sure about that. Are both meridians orbiting by themselves or substances orbiting along the meridians?

qi is a substance in this sense

[Forestgreen]

4 minutes ago, Apech said:

qi is a substance in this sense

In which sense is qi a substance? 

[Apech]

51 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

In which sense is qi a substance? 

 

In traditional Chinese philosophy, qi can be interpreted as a kind of substance in this metaphysical meaning—though it’s not a perfect fit with Western categories, and Chinese thought often prioritizes process over static being. Here’s a structured breakdown:

Underlying Role of Qi:

Qi is the foundational “stuff” or dynamic substrate that underlies all manifestations in the cosmos. In the Huainanzi (2nd century BCE compilation of Daoist and cosmopolitan ideas), qi is the primordial medium from which heaven, earth, and the myriad things (wanwu) emerge and to which they return. It “stands beneath” appearances by animating forms: mountains, rivers, human bodies, and even thoughts are temporary coagulations or patterns within the flow of qi.

Before form (xing), there is qi; it condenses into matter (like yin-qi forming solids) and disperses into ether (yang-qi as vaporous energy). This makes it the persistent ground for change—e.g., a tree’s growth, decay, and rebirth are shifts in qi’s configurations, not illusions atop a void.

Comparison to Western Substances:

Aristotelian Parallel: Aristotle saw substance as primary being (prote ousia), with matter (hylē) as the indeterminate substrate shaped by form (eidos). Qi echoes this as a proto-material force: in neo-Confucianism (e.g., Zhang Zai’s Correcting Youthful Ignorance, 11th century), qi is the “Great Void” (taixu) that isn’t empty but filled with this subtle substrate. It’s what endures beneath accidental changes—like how a statue’s bronze persists while its shape alters.

Vs. Cartesian or Lockean Views: Unlike Descartes’ res extensa (extended substance) or Locke’s primary qualities (solid, impenetrable stuff), qi isn’t rigidly material or dualistic. It’s more fluid, akin to Spinoza’s single substance (Deus sive Natura) where attributes (like energy flows) express an underlying unity. Qi “stands beneath” by being the monistic principle: all dualities (yin-yang) arise from its movements.

Evidence from Chinese Texts:

In the Yellow Emperor’s Inner Classic (Huangdi Neijing), qi is the root of life: “When qi gathers, there is life; when it scatters, there is death.” It underlies physiological appearances (symptoms, pulses) as the invisible essence—much like how Kant’s noumenon underlies phenomena, though qi is immanent (within the world) rather than transcendental.

Daoist alchemy (neidan) treats qi as the “original breath” (yuanqi), the substratum refined through practices to reveal immortality. It’s not superficial energy but the hypostatic ground of being.

Limitations and Nuances:

Process Over Static Substance: Chinese ontology (e.g., in the Yijing or Book of Changes) emphasizes transformation (bianhua) via qi, not eternal unchanging substrates like Plato’s Forms or Aristotle’s unmoved mover. Qi itself transforms, so it’s a “substance-in-flux”—more Heraclitean (everything flows) than Parmenidean (being is one and unchanging). Calling it a pure substance might Westernize it too much; it’s often paired with li (pattern/principle) in Song dynasty thought, where li is the “what” and qi the “how.

 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

qi is a substance in this sense

It is ture that Qi was meant to be a substance in alchemy. However, it is not in MCO. MCO is about the Du and Ren meridians circulating in an orbital manner. They say it can be rotated in either direction. 

Edited Thursday at 07:05 PM by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

 

43 minutes ago, Apech said:

…  qi can be interpreted as …

The entire post reads like a load of AI crap to me.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 07:21 PM by Cobie

[Forestgreen]

36 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

In traditional Chinese philosophy, qi can be interpreted as a kind of substance in this metaphysical meaning—though it’s not a perfect fit with Western categories, 

So a substance from a philosophical point of view, not a substance as an ordinary dictionarie would define the term in english? 

Edited Thursday at 07:14 PM by Forestgreen
Spelling

[Neirong]

Matter is energy. the only reason you are seeing physical objects, can interact with them and do not phase through them, is because electrons repel each other.

Your energy body, on the other hand, does not experience such electron repulsion and could easily pass through objects.

[Forestgreen]

Because it has no substance? 

[Cobie]

logical fallacy, circular argument

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 08:37 PM by Cobie

[Cobie]

Different traditions use different words:

Tummo flames; Pentecostal flames.

MCO; “no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit". (John 3:5)
 

 

Picture from Wiki page ‘tummo’.

 

[ChiDragon]

11 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Picture from Wiki page ‘tummo’

 Get out of here! Cobie 

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

The entire post reads like a load of AI crap to me.

 

 

 

Guilty as charged

[Apech]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

It is ture that Qi was meant to be a substance in alchemy. However, it is not in MCO. MCO is about the Du and Ren meridians circulating in an orbital manner. They say it can be rotated in either direction. 

 

The MCO is part of Neidan.

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

So a substance from a philosophical point of view, not a substance as an ordinary dictionarie would define the term in english? 

 

Substance in the real meaning of the term.

 

 

[ChiDragon]

48 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

The MCO is part of Neidan.

OK. Based on what I have gathered. Neidan takes place in the LDT. MCO was using the idea from Neidan in producing the inner Chi. Then, the  inner Chi is circulating in the path of the Ren and Du meridians loop. That is why it was called MCO.

In the Chinese language, inner Chi(內氣) has never been defined. Therefore, there should be no attempt to translate what the inner Chi is. It will throw everything off.

Edited Thursday at 10:18 PM by ChiDragon

[Forestgreen]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Substance in the real meaning of the term.

 

 

The modern meaning of the term seems to be in conflict with how it developed. 

 

Sighs.

It's like being at work, in psychological theory some of the terms are so mixed in meaning that communication breaks down.

[Apech]

3 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

The modern meaning of the term seems to be in conflict with how it developed. 

 

Sighs.

It's like being at work, in psychological theory some of the terms are so mixed in meaning that communication breaks down.

Not really it’s just that ‘science’ doesn’t allow for anything other than the gross physical and is therefore limited.

 

[Cobie]

 

2 hours ago, Apech said:

... ‘science’ doesn’t allow for anything other than the gross ...

 

'science' is gross 

 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Cobie

[steve]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

Not really it’s just that ‘science’ doesn’t allow for anything other than the gross physical

 

sure it does

 

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

and is therefore limited.

 

 

limited yes, but the methodology is sound and allows for growth

[Apech]

15 minutes ago, steve said:

 

sure it does

 

 

limited yes, but the methodology is sound and allows for growth

 

 

Does it? please explain.

[Master Logray]

On 10/16/2025 at 12:27 AM, Apech said:

 

I think the question 'is the MCO real' is the wrong one.  It would be better to ask 'does it work?' or 'what does it do?' or perhaps 'how do you make it work' but this question gives rise to the general question 'can you make it work or does it just happen'.

 

 

The question is of course wrong.   MCO is merely one of the methods in Neidan.   How is it not real?   The method itself is absolutely real.   It is written in books, having people practise it for centuries.    As you say, the question should be does it work as intended, does it work well, doesn't it work without too much costs or side effects.....

 

 

On 10/16/2025 at 12:27 AM, Apech said:

Most if not all energy exercises/techniques or practices simply replicate intentionally things that happen naturally.  So a certain breathing practice if done with conscious will simply replicates something that would arise naturally if the circumstances arise.  For instance vase breathing, abdominal breathing, embryonic breathing and so on are all like this (in my experience).  I would put the MCO in the same category. 

 

 

 

This is a very good insight.   The major aim of all kinds of trainings is to ensure haphazard, by chance happenings to be dependable, achievable as and when required.

 

 

 

[Sahaja]

However to “not do” one usually must start with some kind of doing to create the conditions for “not doing” to naturally arise.   I think there is a natural progression in qi based practices to move  from doing to not doing as one progresses in capability and builds qi. However without the right conditions in place (like sufficient qi, open channels, Dan tian formed, ability to stabilize alert awareness, etc)  doing nothing will likely result in nothing. I also think in reality it’s a more of a scale rather than a binary outcome.  Close counts. 

[steve]

Quantum mechanics, subatomic physics, the study and applications of light, time reversal, complex numbers, string theory all, among many other areas of inquiry, go beyond the gross physical. 

[Apech]

10 minutes ago, steve said:

Quantum mechanics, subatomic physics, the study and applications of light, time reversal, complex numbers, string theory all, among many other areas of inquiry, go beyond the gross physical. 

Sorry but no they don’t.