Asking for something in a prayer

[idquest]

As a rule, when we ask for something, there is a price to pay. For example, asking for something from a devil usually involves a some kind of spiritual payment, like selling one's soul, as saints and christian scholars teach us (I could be wrong here, please correct me then).

 

But is not the same transactional rule apply when followers ask for something from their deities, such as Jesus, Allah, Buddha, etc.? Do people accrue a 'spiritual credit card' liability when asking for things from their deities?

[Lairg]

A woman was very pleased with a text from her ex.  She showed me and said:  He has moved past transactional relationship

 

Perhaps the gods of humanity are less evolved than that man. 

 

I would look for entities that are not  transactional.

 

46 minutes ago, idquest said:

like selling one's soul

 

In the ancient Egyptian and Kabbalistic systems the human format has 5 souls.

 

The middle soul corresponds with the Christian soul.   But the soul intelligence that approaches suitable humans has a temporary relationship with them - while the human establishes the stages of enlightenment.

 

The solar angel (holy guardian angel) comes from the solar system to help.  It is too profound to partake in transactional relationships.  

 

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 03:22 AM by Lairg

[Sanity Check]

If the question is how God does things.

 

Then it might be answered...

 

How does the being who caused the Big Bang to occur in order for the universe to be created answer prayers.

 

Entities of partial value and capacity use transactional methods due to their limited volume and energy.

 

God's energy and volume would be infinite transcending mere physical limits.

 

Like a nurturing parent, God would want people to pray to develop a relationship and ask for help when needed.

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, idquest said:

As a rule, when we ask for something, there is a price to pay. For example, asking for something from a devil usually involves a some kind of spiritual payment, like selling one's soul, as saints and christian scholars teach us (I could be wrong here, please correct me then).

 

Yes you are wrong ...  and so where the 'saints and Christian scholars'   ( if that indeed is what they taught us  ? )   . 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, idquest said:

 

But is not the same transactional rule apply when followers ask for something from their deities, such as Jesus, Allah, Buddha, etc.?

 

In  some religions magic is permissible as long as it is attributed to its deity or clergy .  For  other to get involved in magic it is considered evil and attributed to evil forces .  Figure that one out !   

 

 

 

3 hours ago, idquest said:

 

Do people accrue a 'spiritual credit card' liability when asking for things from their deities?

 

 

No .   

 

Did you ever have to pay your Mother back ?    (  I mean,  for all the stuff you where given and asked for as a child . )

[idquest]

9 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

If the question is how God does things.

 

Then it might be answered...

 

How does the being who caused the Big Bang to occur in order for the universe to be created answer prayers.

 

Entities of partial value and capacity use transactional methods due to their limited volume and energy.

 

God's energy and volume would be infinite transcending mere physical limits.

 

Like a nurturing parent, God would want people to pray to develop a relationship and ask for help when needed.

 

 

So God wants to have a relationship in exchange for service?

[idquest]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Yes you are wrong ...  and so where the 'saints and Christian scholars'   ( if that indeed is what they taught us  ? )   . 

 

 

Care to elaborate?

 

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

In  some religions magic is permissible as long as it is attributed to its deity or clergy .  For  other to get involved in magic it is considered evil and attributed to evil forces .  Figure that one out !   

 

 

This one is easy - this is just a fight for control and power 

 

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

No .   

 

Did you ever have to pay your Mother back ?    (  I mean,  for all the stuff you where given and asked for as a child . )

 

It is strange that when talking about transactions, people think that transactions are limited to the monetary ones. Monetary transactions are the cheapest in value. 

I believe that most people pay their mothers back by being emotionally attached to them and in long term family relationship with them. Nobody here talks about dollar amounts, although some people could. 

[Sherman Krebbs]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

In  some religions magic is permissible as long as it is attributed to its deity or clergy .

 

I have thought about this.  It is very interesting.   I sometimes go to this Lutheran church by me.  I don't understand much, since its in a language I only pretend to understand, but I love the organ music and the rituals they conduct are absolutely breathtaking.  They sing these magical chants, and then, if you want you can go up and drink the blood of their guru and a baked cracker.  I sometimes sneak up there and have some.  I might go to hell.  Its funny, though, the blood tastes a little like wine.  It is really a magnificent experience, a magical ceremony of purification, which if delivered by any other means, or understood as magic, might be highly objectionable to those participating.   They also wear magical sigils on their cloaks.  The sigils and rituals change from season to season.  I don't know why , nor the spells that they use when the adorn them, but I am sure there are some and that they are quite elaborate. And the building is covered in symbols and has a massive picture of their guru, lying naked, save a conveniently dangling loose towel, dying on a cross ominously overseeing the dias, and constantly reminding of the pain and suffering in life, but also the resurrection and redemption from that pain and suffering that can be achieved by accepting his blessing.  It is really cool, but the point is that, until recently, I never really understood it as a magical ceremony. Most people involved in it would probably not understand it as such, but it is. And I say this as one who does not really practice magic, or really practice anything at all for that matter, excepting laughter. 

 

 

[idquest]

5 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

 

I have thought about this.  It is very interesting.   I sometimes go to this Lutheran church by me.  I don't understand much, since its in a language I only pretend to understand, but I love the organ music and the rituals they conduct are absolutely breathtaking.  They sing these magical chants, and then, if you want you can go up and drink the blood of their guru and a baked cracker.  I sometimes sneak up there and have some.  I might go to hell.  Its funny, though, the blood tastes a little like wine.  It is really a magnificent experience, a magical ceremony of purification, which if delivered by any other means, or understood as magic, might be highly objectionable to those participating.   They also wear magical sigils on their cloaks.  The sigils and rituals change from season to season.  I don't know why , nor the spells that they use when the adorn them, but I am sure there are some and that they are quite elaborate. And the building is covered in symbols and has a massive picture of their guru, lying naked, save a conveniently dangling loose towel, dying on a cross ominously overseeing the dias, and constantly reminding of the pain and suffering in life, but also the resurrection and redemption from that pain and suffering that can be achieved by accepting his blessing.  It is really cool, but the point is that, until recently, I never really understood it as a magical ceremony. Most people involved in it would probably not understand it as such, but it is. And I say this as one who does not really practice magic, or really practice anything at all for that matter, excepting laughter. 

 

 

 

Interesting perspective, thanks for sharing.

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, idquest said:

 

Care to elaborate?

 

First look into the word  'devil'   and then the origins and history of the idea .  If you believe in such concepts why does it follow that certain beings want payment and others not  .... unless you have the idea that 'they are just bad '  without examining the origins of that idea . 

 

In folk traditions it usually comes from the mines .....   underworld :  underground  .: mining  :  IE. where the goodies are .   Its dangerous down there , many died .  Making an offering to the underground dieties  might help you keep your life  (and your soul attached to your body 

 

 

 

the more modern ideas come from 'Dr Faust 'and 'Faustus'  popular stories in their day .   The modern icon of the  man that 'selss his soul to the Devil' has been tagged  generally as the 'scientists ' . I think it would be better and bear better fruit to examine the dynamics  involved in the modern manifestation of the myth .  ... oh yeah and consider what 'soul' can mean  ; not just the end version of (one of them)  Faust where he is literally dragged down into a hell   but when a living person  on earth has 'lost their soul' .....  or something is 

"soulless "  

 

 

Quote

 

 

This one is easy - this is just a fight for control and power 

 

 

  

 

And this Devil idea was generated by those same people that want to have control and power over you  .

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

It is strange that when talking about transactions, people think that transactions are limited to the monetary ones. Monetary transactions are the cheapest in value. 

I believe that most people pay their mothers back by being emotionally attached to them and in long term family relationship with them. Nobody here talks about dollar amounts, although some people could. 

 

I guess you mentioning a credit card threw me off     

 

 

Here is one idea ; you give a dog a drink of water  and you enjoy watching him drink the water .   His enjoyment of the experience is enough .  Another idea is that the 'transaction' is constantly being enacted  ; the Gods are not corporeal, they need our incarnations to experience  the 'wonders of the physical ' . 

Edited 14 hours ago by Nungali

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

 

I have thought about this.  It is very interesting.   I sometimes go to this Lutheran church by me.  I don't understand much, since its in a language I only pretend to understand, but I love the organ music and the rituals they conduct are absolutely breathtaking.  They sing these magical chants, and then, if you want you can go up and drink the blood of their guru and a baked cracker.  I sometimes sneak up there and have some.  I might go to hell.  Its funny, though, the blood tastes a little like wine.  It is really a magnificent experience, a magical ceremony of purification, which if delivered by any other means, or understood as magic, might be highly objectionable to those participating.   They also wear magical sigils on their cloaks.  The sigils and rituals change from season to season.  I don't know why , nor the spells that they use when the adorn them, but I am sure there are some and that they are quite elaborate. And the building is covered in symbols and has a massive picture of their guru, lying naked, save a conveniently dangling loose towel, dying on a cross ominously overseeing the dias, and constantly reminding of the pain and suffering in life, but also the resurrection and redemption from that pain and suffering that can be achieved by accepting his blessing.  It is really cool, but the point is that, until recently, I never really understood it as a magical ceremony. Most people involved in it would probably not understand it as such, but it is. And I say this as one who does not really practice magic, or really practice anything at all for that matter, excepting laughter. 

 

 

 

The high mass is also interesting , it has all the aspects of a magical ceremony. Some say that's because magic is a blasphemous copy of Christian ritual .   BS !     As you noted, the  church has picked up a whole lot of ritual and regalia from elsewhere  ... that's an interesting study ! 

 

There is more than one version of the Eucharist ceremony out there ; 

 

The simplest ; take a substance ,  charge it / make it holy/ invite God into it   and then eat it . 

 

all the way through to ; 

 

 

 

- personally I much prefer a beautiful woman on the altar than a tortured dying man  .   But then again, I am in 'the cult of life'  not the cult of death . 

[Nungali]

However there is a magical teaching that might relate to this  ;  " when a man sells his soul for gold  "  

 

The relevant passages :  

 

"   ...  Be thou therefore prompt and active as the Sylphs, but avoid frivolity and caprice; be energetic and strong like the Salamanders, but avoid irritability and ferocity; be flexible and attentive to images like the Undines, but avoid idleness and changeability; be laborious and patient like the Gnomes, but avoid grossness and avarice.

 

20. So shalt thou gradually develop the powers of thy soul, and fit thyself to command the Spirits of the elements. For wert thou to summon the Gnomes to pander to thine avarice, thou wouldst no longer command them, but they would command thee. Wouldst thou abuse the pure beings of the woods and mountains to fill thy coffers and satisfy thy hunger of Gold? Wouldst thou debase the Spirits of Living Fire to serve thy wrath and hatred? Wouldst thou violate the purity of the Souls of the Waters to pander to thy lust of debauchery? Wouldst thou force the Spirits of the Evening Breeze to minister to thy folly and caprice? Know that with such desires thou canst but attract the Weak, not the Strong, and in that case the Weak will have power over thee. ... "

 

- Liber Librae 

 

[Apech]

There’s an ancient Egyptian story called the shipwrecked sailor which is relevant to the question as to what a god may want from us (in return for whatever we ask from them) - and the answer is for their name to be remembered.

 

There is also a quote from I can’t remember who that ‘worship is continual remembrance’ .   
 

 

[Tommy]

22 hours ago, idquest said:

As a rule, when we ask for something, there is a price to pay. For example, asking for something from a devil usually involves a some kind of spiritual payment, like selling one's soul, as saints and christian scholars teach us (I could be wrong here, please correct me then).

 

But is not the same transactional rule apply when followers ask for something from their deities, such as Jesus, Allah, Buddha, etc.? Do people accrue a 'spiritual credit card' liability when asking for things from their deities?

When one pass a beggar on the street, they ask for food or money. Do you as the grantor of the desire ask for something in return? So, if one prays for something from God then does God ask for something in return? The devil might ask for a transaction or deal to be made. However, i have never heard of God asking for anything. Although things may be offered.

 

Does God say you must repent to have one's wishes granted?? Or does God say you must do this or that so to have your wish to come to pass?? I believe the person making the prayer is asking and sometimes offering something in return. But, God, Jesus, Buddha, they do not ask for something in return. They might listen but there is no guarantee of the wish being granted.

 

Does one build spiritual credit? What would this credit be based upon? Gold ? Silver? Prayer? Worship? Would it be spiritual credit that the Buddha was born a prince? Or would it also be spiritual credit that Bodhidharma was born a prince? Or is it just Karma? What was done before determine where you are now?

Edited 12 hours ago by Tommy

[thelerner]

I don't want to pray to a deity that's transactional or needs buttering up.  I like the concept that prayers that seem to start by praising God are really meant to have us focus on the Greatness,  Beauty and Awesomeness of the world.  To give thanks for our lives and all the good that goes on around us.  I like Rabbi Nachman's practice of having a personal relationship with God; talking regularly, as to friend, loving creator, cheap psychologist.  

 

One difference, imo, between magic and religion is the focus on God's will, not ours.  In religion we can petition but we accept what we get.  We can ask with humility and hope but we accept that the Universe will decide and keep going the best that we can.  

 

So.. for me, asking for something in prayer means putting my mind to what I like in the world, earth, sky, grass, lakes, rivers, netflix, friends, family, breath..  Give thanks for it all and my life.  Throw a desire in there, petition.  As I've gotten older, I rarely ask.  Que Sera, sera, whatever will be will be.  Which in my tradition is kind of one of God's names.    

[Sanity Check]

9 hours ago, idquest said:

 

So God wants to have a relationship in exchange for service?

 

 

A relationship is an exchange.

 

Exchange of words, ideas, pleasantries, etc.

 

Rewards in exchange for service defines a specific type of relationship.

 

Some ask God for things and expect everything for free.

 

As if religion were an offshoot of socialism with free education, free healthcare and free lunch.

 

If the relationship was a fair and balanced one, should God not also ask things of people expecting the cost of wages & labor to be free.

[idquest]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

Here is one idea ; you give a dog a drink of water  and you enjoy watching him drink the water .   His enjoyment of the experience is enough .  Another idea is that the 'transaction' is constantly being enacted  ; the Gods are not corporeal, they need our incarnations to experience  the 'wonders of the physical ' . 

 

IMO this is a weird self-rewarding scenario. A lot of people get high when they 'give'. Some people do give without any expectation and condition, but honestly - such people are rare. Same with domestic animals - most people enjoy being a 'master' of the animals, having power over them. Not all people, but I'd say a significant part of them, judging how people walk their dogs in the nearby park. Getting a 'high' from giving - something feels wrong about this one.

[idquest]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

There’s an ancient Egyptian story called the shipwrecked sailor which is relevant to the question as to what a god may want from us (in return for whatever we ask from them) - and the answer is for their name to be remembered.

 

There is also a quote from I can’t remember who that ‘worship is continual remembrance’ .   
 

 

 

Yes this idea has been around - that gods want people's prayer energy, and in return the gods might grant something in return. Remembering - this is the kind of energy that could be close to prayer energy. 

[idquest]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

When one pass a beggar on the street, they ask for food or money. Do you as the grantor of the desire ask for something in return? So, if one prays for something from God then does God ask for something in return? The devil might ask for a transaction or deal to be made. However, i have never heard of God asking for anything. Although things may be offered.

 

Does God say you must repent to have one's wishes granted?? Or does God say you must do this or that so to have your wish to come to pass?? I believe the person making the prayer is asking and sometimes offering something in return. But, God, Jesus, Buddha, they do not ask for something in return. They might listen but there is no guarantee of the wish being granted.

 

Does one build spiritual credit? What would this credit be based upon? Gold ? Silver? Prayer? Worship? Would it be spiritual credit that the Buddha was born a prince? Or would it also be spiritual credit that Bodhidharma was born a prince? Or is it just Karma? What was done before determine where you are now?

 

I don't know, and you don't know for sure. The highlighted part is your understanding and your opinion, but this is not truth. At least this is how I see things. As a minimum, Gods require worship in return, and possibly much more than worship if somebody wants to obtain something from Gods. Hence my initial question.

 

The idea of gold, silver etc as a means of spiritual payment is just ridiculous, I can't understand why this keeps being brought up. 

 

As for beggars - I'd say that most people give them money/resources for getting psychological rewards in return, whatever they could be. The psychological rewards are very tangible, mind you.

[Tommy]

3 hours ago, idquest said:

 

I don't know, and you don't know for sure. The highlighted part is your understanding and your opinion, but this is not truth. At least this is how I see things. As a minimum, Gods require worship in return, and possibly much more than worship if somebody wants to obtain something from Gods. Hence my initial question.

The highlighted part is your understanding and your opinion, but this is not truth. At least this is how I see things.

 

3 hours ago, idquest said:

The idea of gold, silver etc as a means of spiritual payment is just ridiculous, I can't understand why this keeps being brought up. 

This is how some people see the world, like you.

 

3 hours ago, idquest said:

 As for beggars - I'd say that most people give them money/resources for getting psychological rewards in return, whatever they could be. The psychological rewards are very tangible, mind you.

If that is the way you think then you are a person with the least amount of compassion, empathy and/or wisdom. Why would God receive a psychological reward? What does worship bring to a God that makes it desirable to a omnipotent God? If God created everything then what would God need?

 

When you give then you want something in return. And so you believe this of everyone. A person judges others by what they believe to be true and not always by the actual truth.

Edited 6 hours ago by Tommy