Actual purpose of the dantian?

[HumanElectric]

Everyone has their own opinions as to what the purpose of the dantian is, or if it even exists. What is your opinion of the dantian? If you can back up your claims with reliable data, even better!

 

I’ll go first though, in my opinion, it’s main purpose is to store excess qi. It’s secondary purpose is to provide one with vitality, that can be accessed in times of individual want or subconscious need. 

 

Side note* This thread is only intended to start light-hearted conversation, that we all may be able to learn from. Let’s keep things on a positive note.

[ChiDragon]

Thank you for asking! This subject had been brought up many times. There is no data to back up what it is. Everyone has a diffenent definition. One can only believe what was introduced to or heard of. To me from my native source, dantian is only a description of a place holder for the abdomen. In martial arts, there is a famous saying "氣沈丹田" (sink chi to the dantian).
 

When a slow deep and long breathing was taken, the abdomen was fully expanded. It was said to be  "氣沈丹田" (sink chi to the dantian). Some people call this the dantian breathing. It is simple as that. However, people like to use dantian to explain all kinds of ideas. Indeed, the term becomes wild and confusion for those who have no idea what it is.

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

5 hours ago, HumanElectric said:

Everyone has their own opinions as to what the purpose of the dantian is, or if it even exists. What is your opinion of the dantian? If you can back up your claims with reliable data, even better!

 

I’ll go first though, in my opinion, it’s main purpose is to store excess qi. It’s secondary purpose is to provide one with vitality, that can be accessed in times of individual want or subconscious need. 

 

Side note* This thread is only intended to start light-hearted conversation, that we all may be able to learn from. Let’s keep things on a positive note.

 

I think since Dan Tian is close to the waist it is at or near our center of gravity. This is why it's important in martial arts and why it's considered a place where energy comes from, as in kinetic energy.

[Nintendao]

Here's what I think about 丹田 Dāntián.

 

丹 is any essence to be refined. Whether from the original vermilion ore, all the way to quintessent elixir, who sometimes takes the form of a pill, if not immaterial. 田 represents an irrigated field, a place where cultivation is done, to yield produce.

 

 

On a physical level, imagine becoming the shape of Frosty the Snowman. it's easy to sense the three main containers of movement. There are both external and internal movements. Externally, I can shift my balance by pivoting at the hips, the solar plexus, and the neck. Those are the delineations between the three spheres that make up the snowperson. The spheres can roll around relative to each other, like the floors of a swaying pagoda surviving an earthquake.

 

 

Internally, there is a natural arrangement of different states of matter and energy. At the bottom, liquids and solids are being handled by the digestive tract. In the middle, gasses are exchanged by the lungs, and circulated  by the heart, who also introduces a magnetic quality. At the top, the action is predominantly electrical fire of neurons, and pure light waves entering the eye. This arrangement reflects that of Earth made of solids and liquids, separated by Sky made of gas and radiation, from the Sun made of fire and source of light.

 

 

There is an interspersing of each quality within all three spheres. For instance the alchemical process of fire into water might take advantage of the enteric nervous system to carry out electrical activities in the lower dantian. This is only a piece of the puzzle!

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Nintendao
punctuation junkie vs vocabulary fairy

[Jenn]

I can't offer any reliable data or insight on ancient texts as my knowledge in the area is limited to experiences mostly, but I can share some of what I've experienced, for what it is worth.  

 

I agree you can store excess qi - in fact that seems to be a common pathway different sects use to open channels by using pressure from stored qi.  Personally that wasn't my path to opening channels, but I can see how that would work, having felt qi build and move into the channels, and pressurize them.  I have felt that qi push out into other channels/meridians and "pop" open causing a cascade of sensations and/or muscle tensions releases, although dan tian gong and such practices were not my main method of opening / releasing the body / channels.

 

What I can speak to better is what I have experienced arise in practice relating to the dan tians.  I find the dan tians do kick in of their own accord during some practice sessions.  For some context, most of my practice involves opening the body and reducing tension, then getting the mind out of the way and allowing what happens to happen.  I find after I have made significant progress in releasing tension and or emotional baggage in recent sessions, I usually have 1-2 practice sessions where the lower dan tian kicks in, tightens like when you build qi in the area for awhile, then releases into the channel and flows generally up the spine and around in a circle or vice versa (although sometimes flows into other channels or feels like spinning in one of the dan tians which then usually migrates to the other dan tians).  Sometimes it feels like the qi moves up and floods into the middle and upper dan tians.  Other times it feels like after the qi flows back down it comes up through the perinium area in kind of an S shape then feels like it is yanked back and down into the spine instead of just flowing in more of a circle shape like normal and as described in the mco.  Usually I feel hot in the dan tian regions (and all over) when these occur, but sometimes other sensations.  Nice side bonus (though not likely related to the actual purpose of the dan tian lol), my whole life I was always ice cold, since opening the middle dan tian, I am usually comfortable bordering on too warm (which is awesome right now heading into another Manitoba winter).

 

Another thing I feel the lower dan tian useful for is it is an easy and safe place to place the mind while it "learns" to breath and circulate qi.  Like one type of breathing that arises a lot later seems to be a by product of starting to opening the lower dan tian.  I actually learned it from Damo Mitchells anchored breathing, but I think it would arise naturally of it's own with time as the other types of breathing do.  But once you can do that, your body/mind starts doing that type of breathing in the other dan tians then later throughout the body as it needs.  Even though your lungs are closer to your middle dan tian, I don't think resting awareness there too long until it is more open is healthy.  But it doesn't seem like too much can go wrong or weird focusing awareness on the lower dan tian even if you are still a tight ball of tension and tangled emotional power hungry mess.

 

One other thing that the dan tians are helpful is understanding progress, if you don't visualize or otherwise interfere in what is going on in the body during sessions, it is very clear when the dan tians start to open and then fully open, and that is a useful marker when checking progress in the writings or more modern teachings (if your going it alone without a teacher).

 

One thing I will say about dan tians, opening each of them fully seems to directly correlate to (follow) releasing the muscle/fascia tension in that area, which in turn correlates to (follows or precedes) the release of the associated emotions and mental barriers / negatives patterns stored in that part of the body.  The dan tians feel almost like pathways between the various bodies (physical / energetic / spiritual / etc) that we can access in a way we can understand (physical), until we understand how to interact with (feel) the non-physical bodies.  Don't take that last sentence too seriously, it popped into my head while typing this and I haven't thought it through 😅

 

I would say, personally I don't know if dan tians or even qi are "real", or are just our minds way of interpreting internal sensations as within  the blood / muscles / lymph nodes / nerves that we feel during the process of reducing the "power" the acquired mind has over us via emotions / patterns / desires / etc stored in the body.  I don't think it matters really, it works and the results are worthwhile.  And incredibly fascinating to feel first hand what the ancient writings are talking about and how / why internal alchemy etc came into being when they feel so foreign to us matted emotional hungry trainwrecks who have lost connection with our bodies and the world around us.

 

TLDR: I don't know specifically what the dan tians are for, but when they get involved, a bunch of weird stuff happens and from my experience it has always been beneficial.

[Master Logray]

20 hours ago, HumanElectric said:

Everyone has their own opinions as to what the purpose of the dantian is, or if it even exists. What is your opinion of the dantian? If you can back up your claims with reliable data, even better!

 

 

 

Dantien of course exists.  It is merely the place you want to do something.   If you want data, the term Dantien has 183 names in Taoist/medicinal/philosophical/martial texts.   The reason is just like Eskimos having 44 names for snow.  They denote different purposes/locations/natures of the processes.   The purposes are many many.

 

 

@Jenn  Thanks for your very detail experiences.  But you have not told us what you are doing in the first place.  Is it MCO or some passive meditation that you don't interfere in anything?

 

15 hours ago, Jenn said:

I would say, personally I don't know if dan tians or even qi are "real", or are just our minds way of interpreting internal sensations as within  the blood / muscles / lymph nodes / nerves that we feel during the process of reducing the "power" the acquired mind has over us via emotions / patterns / desires / etc stored in the body.  I don't think it matters really,

 

It is the case.  When a person quiets down the cluttering conscious mind, the perception power significantly improve to pick up sensations normally so minuscule to be discernible.   In fact it amplifies everything.  So a mosquito bite becomes more itchy, arousal becomes more intense.   The feeling of Chi is real.  But is Chi real?

 

 

 

 

 

[Jenn]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

But you have not told us what you are doing in the first place.  Is it MCO or some passive meditation that you don't interfere in anything?

 

My seated practice is a mixture of semi-active and passive.  The semi-active work involves feeling areas of tightness or resistance in the body and moving my awareness there, alternatively if an emotion or negative mental pattern arises instead I follow it and let it work through the body, and sometimes I feel pulled to breath into certain areas of the body and I just go with it. 

 

Staying on the active side, I also have been working on changing my life a lot of support the active work, especially on the emotional side (like letting go or people and material things that are unhealthy but have a hold over me), and working on being less high strung.  I do some qigong and standing work, but that is recent and still in the technique building stage. 

 

The rest of my practice is passive.  Usually I start a session with being in the body, most of the time something physical, emotional, or mental arises first, and probably 3/4 my practice sessions stay in that space for the duration or I slip into a deep stillness part way through.  But odd things arise in some sessions, and when they do I just let them play out.  Things like I described in my first post that feel energetic, and on occasion some really weird stuff that I categorize as "spiritual" or just the brain being wacky because it doesn't feel energetic and isn't grounded like the emotional/physical work.  Sometimes these things get too weird and I refocus back on the body or just stop.  

 

I mentioned the mco because the location of the sensation aligned with what I feel in some sessions, although that feeling of circular movement arises often for only a very short period of time before changing into something else (maybe 4-8 rotations). 

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, Jenn said:

Staying on the active side, I also have been working on changing my life a lot of support the active work, especially on the emotional side (like letting go or people and material things that are unhealthy but have a hold over me), and working on being less high strung.  I do some qigong and standing work, but that is recent and still in the technique building stage. 

 

I remember when I first got into qigong my partner at the time really did not like it. They were abusive and controlling and I think they noticed that after I had begun doing meditation and stuff that I began to react less to their crap and have less tolerance for their nonsense. They were always paranoid that I would leave them and I suppose were afraid that doing these new practices would cause that to eventually happen. They were not wrong about that lol. I began to cut all sorts of toxic people out of my life after I began my qigong and meditation practices. 

[Cobie]

21 hours ago, Maddie said:

… Dan Tian is close to the waist …

True.
 

Then again in modern Chinese 丹田 dan tian means ‘pubic region’. 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

4 hours ago, Master Logray said:

… The feeling of Chi is real.  But is Chi real?

Exactly. A very important distinction to make.

 

 

 

 

[Cobie]

20 minutes ago, Maddie said:

… They were always paranoid that I would leave them and I suppose were afraid that doing these new practices would cause that to eventually happen. They were not wrong about that lol. …

A very long time ago, I had similar experience. A person that didn’t want me to ‘sit’ (and think), in case that would lead to leaving them (as inevitably it did ). 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Cobie

[Maddie]

16 minutes ago, Cobie said:

A very long time ago, I had similar experience. A person that didn’t want me to ‘sit’ (and think), in case that would lead to leaving them (as inevitably it did ). 

 

 

 

Developing healthy boundaries and developing a healthy sense of self worth that is balanced and based in reality are the best and real super powers that these practices give us! 

[Sahaja]

While I can’t offer proof, I will describe my experience with the ldt. It feels like a magnetic field in my lower abdomen that responds to my hand movements, breath, awareness, body movements, sinking and releasing.  As soon as I drop my center in standing, it starts to grip.  It usually starts to rotate on its own if I open my hands or if I stretch open Ming men or do reverse breathing.  If I move my hands in front of it expands and contracts the tissues physically.  It also Contracts/moves when I open and close my hands even if they are at arms length away .it will also turn over/flip from the effects of moving my hands . It also moves when my hands touch the central channel above baihui. The kua, yintang and yongquan also have energetic relationships with the ldt as well.  The  lesser orbit (energy circling in abdomen)  is a common feature of my practice and will continue on its own as long as I let it. 
 

when these experiences (rotations, contractions, waves) first  started to arise in yoga class I was surprised and it wasn’t what I or our teacher expected. Later when I  started taking qigong classes it gave me words and context to better understand what I was experiencing. Though I was still surprised that I would have these experiences.  When I started qi gong classes I noticed that I had already learned some of the cues being taught affecting the qi from just sitting with it and observing how my qi reacted while doing yoga (to different postures, mudras, mantras, points of awareness and breathing patterns). I guess you could say my qi led me to qi gong and then to a qigong teacher rather than the other way around. 
 

my experiences to date seem in line with the explanations for these fields (tians) that  I’ve read and heard. They are also seem generally consistent with what others with a similar practice are experiencing. . It helped me overcome some of my natural skepticism that many of the effects showed themselves before my learning about them  without expecting them or seeing others experience them. On the other hand some things I have learned in qigong (movement of Jin from release) did not initially have any effects, with the effects showing up much later in different practices when I wasn’t looking for it. I think both of these things (along with the undeniable strength of the somatic experiences) have positively influenced my views and motivate me to continue. 

 

 

 

[Nintendao]

22 hours ago, Cobie said:

Then again in modern Chinese 丹田 dan tian means ‘pubic region’. 

 

So what? In the Navy, "head" means toilet (https://usdictionary.com/idioms/to-hit-the-head/)
No wonder my mind is full of shit!

[Nintendao]

There are already a hundred threads talking about the difference between chakras and dantians, so i am not going to get into that, but on the topic of energy storage, reminded me of something. In the nineties my brother had gotten a book on astral projection (prompted by stories from our favorite hippie Comparative Religions professor ) It included a memorable exercise for charging up "etheric matter" to be utilized later in dreams/travel. The one where you imagine light, or mist or maybe vines, swirling up from the ground around your feet then up your legs, and soaking into each chakra successively, on up the ladder. At each stop, the visualization was to imagine taking a loaf of bread in your hands and slowly pulling it apart. The energy could then soak into the sort of fibrous web that spreads out. When it's filled enough the steam rises back out, like when pulling apart a loaf fresh out of the oven. Close the loaf back together again and let the overflow rise up to the next chakra, to repeat the process there. If nothing else it was a really great relaxation to do when lying in bed trying to fall asleep.

[HumanElectric]

Just listened to this podcast. Found it to be quite interesting. 

 

[exorcist_1699]

Our spirit ,  appears to us as varied forms of consciousness and emotions , are  in fact controlled by the jing and qi  that originate from the dantian ( lower) . No matter what structure and layers we  think of our mind, problems like   bad memory , not having a sharp mind,  unable to pull together a still mind ,  fail to do lengthy reasoning , uncontrolled illusions popping up....etc ,  their solution can be found in the area of lower dantian rather than trying to find them in the  upper ,  area of spirit .  Lower dantian is also a place we accumulate energy or nutrition for  a much greater self  ;  let high quality jing and qi arise to naturally sublimate our spirit / shen is a way much better than people's  deliberate (spiritual ) efforts  . It is in this sense that we can find how clever and significant Daoism is. The   terms  "氣機"    ( " mechanism of qi " ) and   "神機" ( " mechanism of shen " ) have to be studied in details , like studies of how to set up a solar-powered system  composed of electrical and mechanical parts  based on varied  mechanisms , so as to benefit our life .

Edited December 21, 2023 by exorcist_1699

[Trunk]

I do find the words, "store" and "save", to be problematic for guiding practice.

 

Harmonize, concentrate, integrate, transform, refine, circulate ... these words I find lead to more inquisitive practice.

 

[ChiDragon]

16 minutes ago, Trunk said:

I do find the words, "store" and "save", to be problematic for guiding practice.

 

I couldn't agree more!

[ChimpSage]

It is the field in which the elixir is created.

 

”Elixir Field.”

[Taomeow]

13 hours ago, ChimpSage said:

It is the field in which the elixir is created.

 

”Elixir Field.”

 

Or, by another name, the "yellow sprouts court." 

 

What's the dantien for?  It's like any other potential that you can develop and use for whatever you're aiming to accomplish.  In this sense it's no different from the ability to acquire language, to read and write, to ride a bicycle, to juggle a dozen tennis balls, to form an emotional relationship with a human or animal or even a device. (Song in the background: "I'm In Love With My Car.")  You are born with the potential; you may learn to use this potential spontaneously upon exposure to whatever tools help it actualize, or (more often) via a particular set of practices that develop it.  

 

What do we develop the dantien for?  It's like asking what our writing ability is for.  Once you got it, how you refine and use it is your choice.  Become Shakespeare or get into arguments with strangers online.  Or both.   

[ChimpSage]

13 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Or, by another name, the "yellow sprouts court." 

 

What's the dantien for?  It's like any other potential that you can develop and use for whatever you're aiming to accomplish.  In this sense it's no different from the ability to acquire language, to read and write, to ride a bicycle, to juggle a dozen tennis balls, to form an emotional relationship with a human or animal or even a device. (Song in the background: "I'm In Love With My Car.")  You are born with the potential; you may learn to use this potential spontaneously upon exposure to whatever tools help it actualize, or (more often) via a particular set of practices that develop it.  

 

What do we develop the dantien for?  It's like asking what our writing ability is for.  Once you got it, how you refine and use it is your choice.  Become Shakespeare or get into arguments with strangers online.  Or both.   

 

In my opinion, the only true Dantian is the one used to create the elixir.

 

The middle and upper dantians really shouldn’t be called Dantians because they aren’t used to create the elixir.

 

But, in the end it’s all just terminology. Easier for people to understand lower, middle, and upper Dantian instead of only one Dantian. It’s terminology that has been simplified to help people understand better.

 

Likewise, the Dantian of qigong and Neigong is not really the true Dantian if it’s not being used for alchemy. It’s a false Dantian that is being labeled as something that it is not.

 

Better terminology would be lower field, middle field, and upper field. In other words, energy fields located in different locations that can be used for different purposes.

 

Elixir field is the only field that is used to combine the ingredients necessary for elixir. So it is called the Dantian.

 

Just my opinion  

 

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by ChimpSage

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, ChimpSage said:

… The middle and upper dantians … aren’t used to create the elixir …

 

 

@Taoist Texts aren’t they?

 

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Cobie

[ChimpSage]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

 

 

@Taoist Texts aren’t they?

 

 

Like I said, they are not Dantian so by definition they cannot.

 

Yuan Qi(Ming) and Yuan Shen(Xing) fuse in the Dantian to form elixir. This can only take place in the lower field

[Cobie]

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Cobie