Let's Talk About Enlightenment(s)

[Daniel]

In another thread @wstein wrote:

 

Quote

...  there is a hostile minority that makes it impossible to discuss certain topics, example: enlightenment.

 

This thread is intended to discuss enlightenment in a non-hostile manner.  In order to foster this discussion, please:

 

Do not make claims / assertions / implications about other's experiences including whether or not their own perceptions are delusional, or that their enlightenment experiences knowledge is incomplete or faulty. The purpose of this thread is to share experiences and information.  Each reader is welcome to form their own opinion about the credibility of each post and each poster.  This should be a common practice for anyone participating actively or passsively on an internet forum.  Caveat Emptor.  But this does not mean that posting thosee opinions here is welcome.

 

So please, no mocking, no challenging each other, or making universal statements about the flaws of non-enlightened people.

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

I have a question which will hopefully get the discussion started.  From another thread:

 

On 2/29/2016 at 8:03 AM, Taoist Texts said:

During this time he continued to adhere faithfully to Shoju's request that he pursue his training and not settle for a small attainment. As a result. Hakuin experienced several more enlightenments. However,  despite the deepening of understanding that these enlightenments brought him, they also began to take a physical toll on him. 

 

I notice the plural for enlightements.  It seems reasonable to me that enlightenment should be plural.  Each person is different, and has different capabilities, talents, flaws, etc.  From this, I think it follows that there would be different types of enlightenment.

 

Would you, or others, please elaborate on this?  What are different types of enlightenment?  Do they always follow a progession which is known?  Are there different types of enlightement which are attained by different schools?  Any additional details shared would be appreciated.

 

Thank you,

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Daniel

[steve]

Here is one perspective -

When people speak of their own enlightening or awakening experience, they tend to describe it in a variety of different ways. Sometimes it is a massive, all in one experience, sometimes sequential and progressive. No two descriptions of the experience(s) are exactly alike. The descriptions do have similarities but the specifics are often very different for different people, even those in the same tradition. The reason for this is that what a person is describing is not an objective thing, condition, or state that can be labeled as enlightenment. They are describing the subjective experience of release or dissolution of whatever was limiting or blocking them in that moment from a more accurate and comprehensive sense of 'self.' Consequently, every individual's enlightening experiences will be unique to them and defined by precisely what was obscuring a truer sense of their 'self,' as will be the path they take to 'get there.' 

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

I have a question which will hopefully get the discussion started.  From another thread:

 

 

I notice the plural for enlightements.  It seems reasonable to me that enlightenment should be plural.  Each person is different, and has different capabilities, talents, flaws, etc.  From this, I think it follows that there would be different types of enlightenment.

 

Would you, or others, please elaborate on this?  What are different types of enlightenment?  Do they always follow a progession which is known?  Are there different types of enlightement which are attained by different schools?  Any additional details shared would be appreciated.

 

Thank you,

 

many say enlightenment has to do with the 7th Chakra (violet/white light consciousness') along the smooth workings of the rest of them.

[Cobie]

 

For about 30 years, I used the (popular western type of) chakra system.

 

 

I customised it to my own needs, integrated it with my other influences. 

I stopped using it about 20 years ago, as the work was completed. I.e. since then I feel an open connection throughout from white to red/red to white, and also feel centered. To me that’s ‘enlightenment’, and I no longer look for ‘enlightenment’. 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

On 2/29/2016 at 8:03 PM, Taoist Texts said:

 . 

 

 

 

Would you, or others, please elaborate on this? 

of course i would. there is only one enlightenment. enlightenment means the human heart dies to the mortal world while the heavenly heart awakens to eternal life

[Daniel]

23 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

of course i would. there is only one enlightenment. enlightenment means the human heart dies to the mortal world while the heavenly heart awakens to eternal life

 

Thank you.  This answer is very meaningful to me.  However, that meaning is coming from my own cultural context and tradition.

 

Would you please help me understand what you mean by human heart?  I doubt it is literal.  But understanding it as metaphor could mean several different things and have several different implications.

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Daniel

[wstein]

In my view 'awakening' simply means one becomes aware that there is a 'spiritual' realm (something transcendent to the physical). It often implies a bit of acceptance of this fact even if begrudgingly or in the face of complete ignorance of the meaning and implication of such. There can be many further awakenings as understanding/awareness deepen.

 

The formal definition of 'enlightenment' varies according to spiritual/religious tradition. Some traditions have a series of expanding enlightenments, some only one. In my experience the profoundness of being enlightened in each tradition varies greatly. The minimal end of the spectrum it is merely recognizing and accepting that you are a spiritual being/part of the One spiritual being. At the other end of the spectrum in omnipotence and omniscience.

[old3bob]

and there is that saying of "a drop returning to the ocean", after that there is only the ocean for the individual drop as some sayings go is no more. That is the ultimate price to pay and in this world it doesn't seem like most us are ready (myself included) or willing to pay it or even recognize that, but many like the idea of being an individual super something or other.

 

Mountains of hard work and help are needed to reach zero resistance to that truth of power and that can not be done  with simple new age platitudes or just intellectual concepts which are ok to start with.  For instance If we want to be one with a lighting bolt (as a metaphor for kundalini shakti) when it strikes we better be ready or get burnt!  For there is more than just a gentle, soft or kind aspect, which are also appreciated...

Edited September 24, 2023 by old3bob

[Gerard]

21 hours ago, old3bob said:

and there is that saying of "a drop returning to the ocean"

 

or even better (using Rumi's words): 

 

"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop."

 

Pretty much what Taoism has acknowledged for the past 4,500 years!

 

About this enlightenment thing. I like the down to Earth view by Aikido OSensei Morehei Ueshiba:

 

“Those who are enlightened never stop forging themselves.”

 

A.M.E.N. to that. 

 

[liminal_luke]

7 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

or even better (using Rumi's words): 

 

"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop."

 

 

 

Can it be both? Taoist master Robert Peng has a saying: I am in chi; Chi is in me.

[oak]

On 23/09/2023 at 9:25 PM, Daniel said:

 

Thank you.  This answer is very meaningful to me.  However, that meaning is coming from my own cultural context and tradition.

 

 

Hi Daniel 

Just to call your attention to DDJ 70 where this is referred, "therefore the Sage wears a coarse cloth on top and carries jade within his bosom."

[S:C]

On 22.9.2023 at 10:35 PM, Taoist Texts said:

the human heart dies to the mortal world

Would you be able to give some context? Thanks.

[ChiDragon]

Enlightenment(頓悟) is being realized all of a sudden about something that was always puzzling without an answer before. The Enlightenment has cleared any ambiguity in the perturbed mind.

頓悟是正在突然意识到一些以前没有答案总是令人费解的事情。 启蒙已经清除了不安心灵中的任何模棱两可。

 

[Daniel]

10 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Can it be both? Taoist master Robert Peng has a saying: I am in chi; Chi is in me.

 

I vote YES!

[old3bob]

pure energy comes from one source, differences it may take on are ultimately and only apparent.

[exorcist_1699]

The difficulties  of  attaining  Buddhist way of Enlightenment are :

 

1) Before attaining Enlightenment , you need to sustain a prolonged state of emptied mindlessness , which to most people , is something too tough to do;

 

2) Technically, the more you want to attain Enlightenment  , the more you are unlikely to get it  for it only comes when you do not pay attention to  . And , there are many  awakenings , small or big.. ,  to accumulate . So, it is technically difficult .  In fact, to our mind , abstraction is always something  difficult ; there are analytic abstraction , say  maths , which deal with abstractions of  numerical quantity ,  relations , arrangements  or spacial dimensions of things around  us , that makes us  frightened   . The German philosopher , Wittgenstein, once  compared analytic thinking , a process of struggles,  to diving   where we always have to fight against the floating force ;   there is  also the  intuitive abstraction  in which  we can play with layers and levels of  nothingness , first in steps, then at a stroke.., something even more intimidating than those we  do in maths . The reward  is that while in analytic   abstraction  we  only indirectly gain the power ( 'Knowledge is power')  , in intuitive abstraction , we  can directly  grasp  the energy , then the  power ,  in hands  provided that we explore deep enough.

 

If after having read above  you still cannot find anything significant , then  fortunately , apart from the Buddhist way, we get the Taoist way, a way of primordial qi , that simplifies  many things .

 

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by exorcist_1699

[Taoist Texts]

On 9/24/2023 at 12:25 AM, Daniel said:

what you mean by human heart? 

thats a toughie but always glad to help

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/human-heart

12 hours ago, stellarwindbubble said:

Would you be able to give some context? Thanks.

human heart dies, heavenly heart lives. thats a traditional description of enlightenment or awakening. its feeling is two fold: A) you feel that despite staying apparently the same, the material world around your has become empty/unreal while your mind becomes unaffected by it. B ) you feel your soul or whatever, your psyche, your heart, become the ultimate eternal reality. 

thats it.

4 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

German philosopher , Wittgenstein,

Quote

 

 It has been suggested that he had Asperger syndrome and a possible movement disorder (mannerisms).

'Wittgen

 

All of western philosophy is insane, let alone that guy

[S:C]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

All of western philosophy is insane, let alone that guy

That’s comforting.

Thanks.

[oak]

On 22/09/2023 at 3:03 PM, Daniel said:

In another thread @wstein wrote:

 

 

This thread is intended to discuss enlightenment in a non-hostile manner.  In order to foster this discussion, please:

 

Do not make claims / assertions / implications about other's experiences including whether or not their own perceptions are delusional, or that their enlightenment experiences knowledge is incomplete or faulty. The purpose of this thread is to share experiences and information.  Each reader is welcome to form their own opinion about the credibility of each post and each poster.  This should be a common practice for anyone participating actively or passsively on an internet forum.  Caveat Emptor.  But this does not mean that posting thosee opinions here is welcome.

 

So please, no mocking, no challenging each other, or making universal statements about the flaws of non-enlightened people.

 

 

I guess the only thing that makes sense to me as a reply is that faith in the path is needed.

As much as we would like to share something that would make it easier for someone else we just can't because things need to be lived. A few can point the way though, that's all.

I frequently compare this discussions with a pĺaygroung of teenagers (in modern times children not teenagers I guess) discussing sex. Too many are pointing the way sharing their imaginary experiences and feats having zero experience. This makes others more insecure and lost and terribly anxious towards the experience. Others even read some books and are absolutely shure they have the answers, knowledge as a shield against insecurity. The ones that have some experience know that the truth is intimate and somehow feel unable to share much of the experience that they've had if they were to tell the absolute truth. Yes, they can only say to others "relax, your time will come." , isn't it?

The time will come for all of us. If we have some faith in that we will relax and make it easier. No need to rush the seasons.

 

[Cobie]

 

13 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/human-heart 

 

I agree, it’s one’s “feelings and beliefs”.

 

Quote

human heart dies, heavenly heart lives. thats a traditional description of enlightenment or awakening.

 

I agree.

 

Quote

… A) you feel that despite staying apparently the same, the material world around your has become empty/unreal while your mind becomes unaffected by it. B ) you feel your soul or whatever, your psyche, your heart, become the ultimate eternal reality. …

 

Thank you very much for sharing.  

 

Quote

All of western philosophy is insane, let alone that guy

I haven’t read “All of western philosophy” but as far as I have read, I am inclined to agree. 
 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

13 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

thats a toughie but always glad to help

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/human-heart

 

Thank you,

 

From the link for reference:  "You can refer to someone's heart when you are talking about their deep feelings and beliefs."

 

Inserting this into what you wrote:  "enlightenment means deep feelings and beliefs die to the mortal world while the heavenly heart awakens to eternal life"

 

Quote

human heart dies, heavenly heart lives. thats a traditional description of enlightenment or awakening. its feeling is two fold: A) you feel that despite staying apparently the same, the material world around your has become empty/unreal while your mind becomes unaffected by it. B ) you feel your soul or whatever, your psyche, your heart, become the ultimate eternal reality. 

thats it.

 

OK, thank you.  Question, please:  when you say "traditional" which tradition is it?  Or is that cultural?

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

17 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

The difficulties  of  attaining  Buddhist way of Enlightenment are :

 

1) Before attaining Enlightenment , you need to sustain a prolonged state of emptied mindlessness , which to most people , is something too tough to do;

 

2) Technically, the more you want to attain Enlightenment  , the more you are unlikely to get it  for it only comes when you do not pay attention to  . And , there are many  awakenings , small or big.. , have to accumulate . So, it is technically difficult .  In fact, to our mind , abstraction is always something  difficult ; there are analytic abstraction , say  maths , which deal with abstractions of  numerical quantity ,  relations , arrangements  or spacial dimensions of things around  us , that makes us  frightened   . The German philosopher , Wittgenstein, once  compare analytic thinking , a process of struggles,  to diving   where we always have to fight against the floating force.. ;   there is  also the  intuitive abstraction  in which  we can play with layers and levels of  nothingness , first in steps, then at a stroke.., something even more intimidating than those we  do in maths . The rewards is that while in analytic   abstraction  we  only indirectly gain the power ( 'Knowledge is power')  , in intuitive abstraction , we  can directly  grasp  the energy , then the  power ,  in hands  provided that we explore deep enough.

 

If after having read above  you still cannot find anything significant , then  fortunately , apart from the Buddhist way, we get the Taoist way, a way of primordial qi , that simplifies  many things .

 

Thank you very-very much.  If you've been reading my posts where I contemplate math as a method for a realization of 無, this fits very much with my own experience.  But, for me it's not scary at all.  I don't consider it the only way, naturally.  

 

If possible, I would very much appreciate more detail regarding:  "In fact, to our mind , abstraction is always something  difficult ; there are analytic abstraction , say  maths , which deal with abstractions of  numerical quantity ,  relations , arrangements  or spacial dimensions of things around  us , that makes us  frightened".

 

Why frightened?  I can understand painful, because the mind is stretching.  Perhaps, as I'm typing this, it has to with challenging assumptions about reality?  And if those strongly held beliefs are disturbed, it's frightening?

[Gerard]

19 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

The difficulties  of  attaining  Buddhist way of Enlightenment

 

Simplistic it is. I tend to ignore it now after doing Ba Gua Zhang and living a life fully dedicated to internal work. 

 

Chasing someone's pastiche experience is nor the way to do things correctly.

 

Taoism was/is always a science of the Yin & Yang so it isn't concerned about E. but how to LIVE A BETTER LIFE.

 

 

Quote

 

2) Technically, the more you want to attain Enlightenment  , the more you are unlikely to get it  for it only comes when you do not pay attention to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

FYI, you are enlightened already. That's the state we are all in. A different story is living all your physical reincarnations, hence learn ALL YOUR LESSONS. This is unavoidable. 

 

 

Now the question is:

 

HOW DEEP DOES THE RABBIT HOLE GO?

 

Ha!

 

A: my view, endless, eternal, infinite...as we all are. Our Minds have no limits, only the ones imposed by this tiny physical experience of ours, which is only a small fraction of what we truly are. 

 

NIRVANA is a myth from the point of view of extinction, end of suffering. This view needs to be seriously updated as being incomplete. 

 

You never CEASE TO EXIST.

 

 

“We can no longer rely on the external teachings of Buddha, Confucius, or Christ. The era of organized religion controlling every aspect of life is over. No single religion has all the answers.”

 

(Morihei Ueshiba)

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Gerard

[exorcist_1699]

3 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

Simplistic it is. I tend to ignore it now after doing Ba Gua Zhang and living a life fully dedicated to internal work. 

 

Chasing someone's pastiche experience is nor the way to do things correctly.

 

Taoism was/is always a science of the Yin & Yang so it isn't concerned about E. but how to LIVE A BETTER LIFE.

 

 

 

 

In order to attain higher quality of qi,  a taste of  emptied  mindlessness stuff  is , anyway , needed .