On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic practice

[steve]

Wait, you’ve got it all wrong.

 

True transfer method:

 

[Cobie]

26 minutes ago, steve said:

 … True transfer method:  …

Yippee, now I know something for sure 

Spoiler

that I am confused 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Cobie

[awaken]

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

it is a buddhist term

「捨念清淨」(upekkha-sati-parisuddhi)

a "state of perfect equanimity and awareness (upekkhā-sati-parisuddhi)." 

https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/28911

 

 

 ‘to withdraw the mind from the automatic responses to sense-impressions’

 

The definition of his sentence is wrong. The Buddha did not teach it in this way. What the Buddha taught has always been the rise of deep awareness, which is called "Supreme Enlightenment".
But I don't know if the translation of "Supreme Enlightenment" through Google is correct.
That is to say, what the Buddha taught is not that "consciousness" is withdrawn from "various senses", but that "consciousness" ceases and "depth perception" arises.

 

他這句話的定義是有錯的，佛陀不是這樣教的，佛陀教的一向是深度覺的升起，稱為「無上正等覺」。
但是我不知道「無上正等覺」透過google翻譯過來的對不對。
也就是佛陀教的不是「意識」從「各種感官」抽離出來，而是「意識」停息，「深度覺」升起。
 

[awaken]

9 hours ago, Sahaja said:

Thank you for sharing your views of the form based Jhanas and pointing to the agama sutras.  I found this helpful.

 

would you be willing to share your views on the meaning and utility of the formless Jhanas? (5 -8)  I’ve read/heard different views on this topic and I am trying to improve my understanding. Thank you. 

 

The "colorless world" also needs to find the answer from the Agama Sutra.
There is a passage in the Agama Sutra that mentions that there are only two forms of meditation in the formless realm, namely, the samadhi of boundless emptiness and the samadhi of boundless consciousness.
And "concentration of nothing" and "concentration of neither thought nor non-conceived" in the Agama Sutra also clearly mentioned that the Buddha followed the useless samadhi learned from two teachers.
Therefore, we must think about the contradiction that exists in the Agama Sutra itself, that is, there are only two samadhis in the "colorless definition" instead of four samadhis.

There are too many proper nouns in this part, and I don’t know if Google can translate the nouns that should be translated.

"Formless definition" is the existence of being separated from the body, that is, it began to appear after the "fourth jhana". It is because of the "fourth meditation" that there is the so-called "purification of thoughts of abandonment", that is, the complete abandonment of consciousness and the rise of deep awareness.

So the Agama Sutra mentions the phenomenon of nirvana after the fourth meditation, and I can know that the phenomenon of nirvana is the beginning of the phenomenon of the formless realm.

All phenomena in the Formless Realm are developed on the basis of the fourth jhāna. Therefore, the characteristics of the fourth meditation, the abandonment of consciousness and the rise of deep perception, have the definition of formlessness. Moreover, the colorless definition is more stable in this feature, the depth perception is clearer, and the transformation is produced in a very fast manner.

Of course, after entering the definition of colorless, one begins to enter the content of Vajrayana. Again, it's not the Vajrayana of the visualization type, that's fake.

The fake Vajrayana started from Tsongkhapa, which happened hundreds of years ago, so don’t talk about the inheritance, the inheritance has long been crooked.

 

「無色界」也是同樣要從阿含經去找答案。
阿含經有一段提到「無色界禪定」只有兩個，「空無邊處定」和「識無邊處定」。
而「無有所處定」和「非想非非想定」在阿含經也明確提到是佛陀跟了兩個老師所學的無用的入定。
因此我們必須思考在阿含經本身就存在這個矛盾的地方，也就是「無色界定」只有兩個定而非四個定。

這個部分專有名詞太多，不知道google是否能把該翻譯的名詞翻譯出來。

「無色界定」是脫離色身的存在，也就是從「第四禪定」之後才開始產生。因為「第四禪定」才有所謂的「捨念清淨」，也就是意識的完全捨棄並且深度覺的升起。

所以阿含經提到第四禪定後面的涅槃現象，我可以知道涅槃現象就是無色界現象的開始。

無色界所有的現象都基於第四禪定的基礎發展出來的。所以第四禪定有的特徵，意識的捨棄和深度覺的升起，無色界定都有。而且無色界定在這個特徵上更為穩固，深度覺更為清晰，轉換是以非常快速的方式產生。

當然當進入無色界定之後，就開始進入金剛乘所講的內容了。我再強調一次，不是觀想類型的金剛乘，那是假的。

假的金剛乘從宗喀巴就開始了，那已經是好幾百年前就發生了，所以不要說什麼傳承，傳承早就歪掉了。

[awaken]

10 hours ago, steve said:

 

That would not help me because I am trying to understand you, not someone else. But if you do not wish to be more clear that is fine.

Thanks

 

My specialty is not in the transfer method. Also my specialty is not in visualization.

I have said countless times about the characteristics of the transfer method, acquired consciousness promotes the sense of qi and misuses Dan Dao terms.

There are many factions in the transfer method itself, and the details are also different, but the general principle is the same.

Just like there are many schools of visualization, and there are many visualization contents, but the general principle is the same, which is to use acquired consciousness to imagine and take the imagined contents as real.

 

我的專長不是在搬運法。同樣我的專長也不是在觀想法。

我已經說過搬運法的特徵無數次，後天意識催動氣感和誤用丹道名詞。

搬運法本身的派別很多，細節也有很多不同，但是這個大原則是相同的。

就像觀想法派別很多，觀想的內容也很多，但是大原則相同，也是使用後天意識去想像並且把想像出來的內容當成真的。

Edited January 29, 2023 by awaken

[awaken]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

I might be glad too, just 2 questions first:

What is “carrying method”? 

What is “transfer method”? 

 

 

 

That's pretty much what it means.

Use acquired consciousness to move "Qi".
You can think of those two people as your way of conscious effort. Think of the person in the middle as "Qi".

And this way of conveying the sense of Qi with the acquired consciousness will cause the circulation of "qi" similar to the state of boiling water.

When a person keeps practicing MCO and allows himself to continuously produce MCO phenomena, he can know that this person is practicing the method of transportation.

We can even say that the transportation method distorts the definition of MCO, and defines MCO as the circulation of "qi" like boiling water.

 

差不多就是這個意思。

用後天意識去搬運「氣」。
你可以把那兩個人當成你的意識用力的方式。把中間那個人當成「氣」。

並且這種後天意識搬運氣感的方式會造成「氣」類似滾水狀態那樣的循環。

當一個人不斷的練習ＭＣＯ，讓自己不斷的產生ＭＣＯ現象，就可以知道這個人練的就是搬運法。

我們甚至可以這樣說，搬運法扭曲了MCO的名詞定義，把ＭＣＯ定義成「氣」如同滾水一樣的循環。
 

Edited January 29, 2023 by awaken

[steve]

@awaken

 

Thank you for the clarification, I understand your point. Regarding the breathing technique I will extrapolate your meaning there as well.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

Awaken's criticism of the transfer method reminds me of Freeform's criticism of popular methods to "sink the chi."  If I remember correctly, Freeform suggests that it's a mistake to mentally imagine or intend to bring qi down.  Instead a practitioner would set up the conditions which naturally allow the qi to descend on it's own.  Do I have that right?

 

I predict that Awaken and Freeform will join forces and open their own online school together.  Sign me up!

[forestofemptiness]

On 1/27/2023 at 8:26 PM, Creation said:

My interest in clarifying these points definitely isn't to then tell others they are wrong, or should be doing something else.  Even saying people have "moved the goalposts" isn't actually a value judgement to me, even though I can see why someone might take it that way.  _/\_

 

I wasn't aiming at your posts--- I find that your posts are always open minded, curious, and respectful. 

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

19 hours ago, steve said:

Wait, you’ve got it all wrong.

 

True transfer method:

 

She can’t walk because of too much dirty qi in her lower abdomen.

 

Yuk I can smell it from here. 
 

由于小腹脏气太多，她不能走路。 

 

我能从这里闻到它的味道。

[liminal_luke]

If there's one thing that irks me more than the transfer method it's squatters.  These days people love to diss chairs -- and the people who habitually sit in them.  I don't think it's fair, all this glorification of people from non-western countries who spend lots of time squatting and sitting on the ground.  Such people are very low level.  

[freeform]

On 29/01/2023 at 2:16 AM, liminal_luke said:

Awaken's criticism of the transfer method reminds me of Freeform's criticism of popular methods to "sink the chi."  If I remember correctly, Freeform suggests that it's a mistake to mentally imagine or intend to bring qi down.  Instead a practitioner would set up the conditions which naturally allow the qi to descend on it's own.  Do I have that right?

 

I predict that Awaken and Freeform will join forces and open their own online school together.  Sign me up!

Yup - exactly right  

 

Pretty much every important method  is done this way…

 

Dig the channel and the water will flow of its own accord…

 

Instead of ‘carrying’ the water in your hands like a low-level schmo  

 

I think before we can set up our school she’d have to unblock me first 

 

(I predict a sitcom style love-hate relationship for this one)

[freeform]

On 28/01/2023 at 3:16 AM, Creation said:

By this do you mean, that this happens in a way that is dramatically deeper, longer, or more complete of a stopping than in previous jhanas or samadhis?  Because this could very well be what the Buddha meant when he said in the Suttas that the breath stops in 4th jhana, and later generations moved the goalposts to mean some type of less deep or complete stopping of the breath. 

Yes - and that all bodily processes apparently slow down/stop - not just the breathing…

 

Between the 4th and 5th Jhannas there’s a bit of a paradigm shift from functioning in the physical realm to functioning purely in the spiritual realm.

[Taoist Texts]

Quote

 

it's a mistake to mentally imagine or intend to bring qi down.

 

its a bit of a mystery where this idea comes from. Perhaps anyone knows the source?

[awaken]

On 2023/1/29 at 9:30 AM, steve said:

@awaken

 

Thank you for the clarification, I understand your point. Regarding the breathing technique I will extrapolate your meaning there as well.

 

 

In fact, there are many points I didn’t say, because no one asked, so I couldn’t say it.

In fact, breathing is not so necessary, because if you understand the level of qi, you will know that if our practice is in line with the evolution of the level of qi, breathing is not so important.

In the Yellow Emperor's Internal Classic, Qi is divided into many levels. I found that many people in the Western world do not understand this point.
It may be that very few people know both qigong and Chinese medicine at the same time.

 

其實我有很多點沒有講出來，因為沒有人問，所以就講不出來。

其實呼吸不是那麼必要，因為如果你了解氣的層次，你會知道如果我們的練習符合氣的層次的演化，呼吸就沒有那麼重要了。

黃帝內經當中有把氣分成許多層次，這一點我發現在西方世界，很多人不懂。
可能是很少人同時懂得練功和中醫吧。

[awaken]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Yup - exactly right  

 

Pretty much every important method  is done this way…

 

Dig the channel and the water will flow of its own accord…

 

Instead of ‘carrying’ the water in your hands like a low-level schmo  

 

I think before we can set up our school she’d have to unblock me first 

 

(I predict a sitcom style love-hate relationship for this one)

 

 

There are some things that I don't want to tell you, because after talking about them, it's useless.

Most of the beginners will move the qi in the cultivation of the method of carrying. The advanced ones have already carried the qi for many years, so they usually have already developed inertia.

So the problem for these advanced people will not be to use acquired consciousness to move Qi. But cannot give up acquired consciousness.
Those who are advanced in the transfer method who cannot give up the acquired consciousness will enter the obstinate emptiness.
Stubborn emptiness is a kind of false emptiness, and it is one of the pits most likely to fall into for advanced transporters.

 

有些東西我不太想跟你講，因為講了之後，也沒什麼用處。

搬運法的修煉問題會把氣搬運的大多是初學者，進階者因為已經搬運很多年了，所以通常已經產生慣性。

所以這些進階者的問題不會是用後天意識搬運氣。而是無法放棄後天意識。
這些無法放棄後天意識的搬運法進階者，就會進入頑空定。
頑空定是一種假的虛空，是搬運法進階者最容易陷入的坑之一。

 

 

Advanced transfer method regards acquired consciousness as innate consciousness, and cannot tell the difference between acquired and innate.
In fact, it is very easy to distinguish between acquired and innate. When the consciousness is hidden, the innate will appear.

Consciousness consists of six levels, the vision of the eyes, the hearing of the ears, the smell of the nose, the taste of the tongue, the touch of the body and consciousness.

So the hidden bag of consciousness and the senses shut down, exactly the same as going into deep sleep.

Therefore, hearing and physical sense of touch are usually used to judge whether acquired consciousness has stopped.

If you can still hear the sound or feel the body, it means that the acquired consciousness has not stopped.

It is impossible to have innate until acquired consciousness stops functioning.

Advanced practitioners of the transfer method use a depressive method to suppress the attention on one point, thinking that if the mind does not move, it is already in meditation. And the biggest feature of this way of meditation is that there is no evolution of yang.
So as long as we see a senior practitioner who has no yangsheng evolution, we know that he is an advanced practitioner of the transfer method and has fallen into a state of obstinate emptiness.

 

搬運法進階者把後天意識當成先天意識，分不出後天和先天有什麼不同。
其實後天和先天非常容易區分，當意識隱藏之後，先天才會出現。

意識包含六個層面，眼睛的視覺，耳朵的聽覺，鼻子的嗅覺，舌頭的味覺，身體的觸覺和意識。

所以意識的隱藏包還這些感官都停止運作了，就跟進入深度睡眠是完全相同的。

因此通常會用聽覺和身體的觸覺來判斷是否已經停止後天意識。

如果還聽得到聲音或者身體還有感覺，那就是沒有停止後天意識。

在後天意識沒有停止運作之前，都不可能有先天。

搬運法的進階者採用一種壓抑的方式，把注意力壓制在一個點上，以為心念不會移動就已經是入定。而這樣的入定方式最大的特徵就是沒有陽生的演化。
所以只要看到一個沒有陽生演化的資深修煉者，我們就知道他就是一個搬運法進階者，陷入頑空定的狀態。

 

Usually, those who have practiced the transfer method for several years will enter this state, almost without exception.
Unless he can fully realize from within that his understanding of consciousness is completely wrong, there will be no chance of conversion.

 

通常練了好幾年的搬運法練習者就會進入這樣的狀態，幾乎沒有一個例外。
除非他能從內在徹底覺悟到他對意識的了解完全錯誤，才可能有轉變的機會。
 

 

But it is very difficult and it takes a lot of courage to have a breakthrough.

Because experienced practitioners of the transportation method will produce an Qi cocoon outside the body due to long-term MCO.
This cocoon also affects his mind, making it very difficult for him to see the inner consciousness because of the prolonged outward projection of his attention.

 

但是這是非常困難的，必須有很大的勇氣才能產生突破。

因為資深搬運法練習者因為長期的ＭＣＯ會在體外產生一個氣繭。
這個繭同時會影響他的思想，讓他非常難以看見內在的意識，這是因為他的注意力長期向外投射的緣故。

 

I have met many experienced practitioners of the transfer method who have similar auras and enter into similar obstinate emptiness, and such people are difficult to change.

And beginners have not been misled, it is better to communicate.

 

我遇到過很多資深搬運法練習者，都有類似的氣場，進入類似的頑空定，而這樣的人是很難改變的。

而初學者還沒有被誤導，還是比較好溝通的。

 

So I will choose to give up too much communication with such people, mainly for this reason.

 

所以我會選擇放棄和這樣的人有太多的交流，主要是這個原因。

 

Because a savvy beginner can produce a small medicine in three months and conceive in a year.

Teaching a savvy beginner will take many times less effort than teaching an experienced transfer practitioner.

Mainly to save effort.

 

因為一個有悟性的初學者，三個月就可以產生小藥，一年就可以結胎。

教一個有悟性的初學者所花費的力氣會比跟一個資深搬運法練習者少上許多倍。

主要是省力。

 

Because my purpose of teaching this on the Internet is very simple, that is, to hope that someone can achieve the golden elixir.

 

因為我在網路上教這些的目的很簡單，就是希望有人能夠達到金丹。

Edited January 30, 2023 by awaken

[Taoist Texts]

36 minutes ago, awaken said:

to hope that someone can achieve the golden elixir.

但识无为为要妙，谁知有作是根基。

[awaken]

11 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

但识无为为要妙，谁知有作是根基。

 

Youzuo belongs to the water and fire stage.
Dan Dao's practice is to start with water and fire. Practicing qi is the beginning, so there is no problem. But there is a problem with taking water and fire as everything.

Even if the phenomena in water and fire are regarded as golden elixir, the problem is even bigger.

 

有作屬於水火階段。
丹道的練習本來就是從水火下手。練氣是一個開始這是沒有問題的。但是把水火當成全部就有問題了。

甚至把水火當中的現象當成金丹，問題就更大了。

 

Don't take Jin Dan too hard.
It only takes one year for the initial golden core to be cultivated.
But a mature golden core may not be able to be practiced in a lifetime.

 

你也別把金丹看得太困難。
初期的金丹只要一年就能練出來。
但是成熟的金丹，可能一輩子都練不出來。

 

The early Jindan was called Xuanzhu.
Because the changes are very subtle.

It is not difficult to practice Xuanzhu.

Just go in the right direction.

 

初期的金丹被稱為玄珠。
因為其中的變化非常奧妙。

練出玄珠不難。

只要方向對就可以了。

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by awaken

[Taoist Texts]

56 minutes ago, awaken said:

Practicing qi is the beginning, so there is no problem.

oh that's good. but what exactly is practicing qi? how it is done?

[Wilhelm]

5 hours ago, freeform said:

Yup - exactly right  

 

Pretty much every important method  is done this way…

 

Dig the channel and the water will flow of its own accord…

 

Instead of ‘carrying’ the water in your hands like a low-level schmo  

 

I think before we can set up our school she’d have to unblock me first 

 

(I predict a sitcom style love-hate relationship for this one)

It'd be real nice if all these months of disagreement were based on an understanding of who was and wasn't using intention to guide the process... I think Awaken also disagrees with a lot of what I was taught were prerequisites (i.e. building LDT) but its nice to be understanding her better in any event.

 

Interesting observation about experienced practitioners becoming unable to cross over acquired consciousness, as well.  Makes me wonder which systems she had exposure to, and what their error was.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Wilhelm

[awaken]

34 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh that's good. but what exactly is practicing qi? how it is done?

 

I don't quite understand your question.
I remember you are practicing Qi every day. Qi training should not be a problem for you.

 

我不太明白你的問題。
我記得你每天有在練氣。練氣對你來說應該不是問題。

[awaken]

In Dan Dao, the starting point of Dan should be Xiaoyao(small medicine).
So before there is no medicine, there is no so-called lower dantian.
Breathing with the lower abdomen cannot be called the lower dantian.
The appearance of the lower dantian starts from the black liver.
So I am not denying the establishment of the lower dantian.
But the definition of the lower dantian in the transportation method is problematic.

 

在丹道來說，丹的起點應該是小藥。
所以在沒有小藥之前，是沒有所謂的下丹田的出現。
用下腹部呼吸不能稱為下丹田。
下丹田的出現是從烏肝開始。
所以我不是否認下丹田的建立。
而是搬運法的下丹田的定義是有問題的。

 

 

If you read my article carefully, you will see that I never deny the lower dantian, what I deny is that someone regard the breathing phenomenon in the lower abdomen as the lower dantian.

 

你如果仔細看過我的文章，你會看到我從沒有否認下丹田，我否認的是把下腹部的呼吸現象當成下丹田。

 

 

Because most people have not achieved the black liver medicine, they cannot understand what is really going on in the lower dantian. So the description of this matter becomes very difficult.

 

因為大部分的人沒有達成烏肝小藥，所以無法理解真正的下丹田是怎麼回事。所以這件事情的描述就變得非常的困難。

 

It is a waste of energy to explain to those who have not achieved black liver medicine and those who have not achieved non-action evolution.

 

要對這些沒有達成烏肝小藥的人，又沒有達成無為演化的人解釋，是一件非常浪費精力的事情。
 

Only after the appearance of the black gan is the so-called lower dantian.
The so-called middle dantian is only after the conception.
After the third stage of Yangsheng, there is the so-called upper dantian.

The dantian is the place where the dan is produced, not the place where the lower abdomen breathes.

 

烏肝出現之後才有所謂的下丹田。
結胎之後才有所謂的中丹田。
第三階段陽生之後才有所謂的上丹田。

丹田就是產生丹的地方，而不是下腹部呼吸的位置。

 

The breath in the lower abdomen is the breath in the lower abdomen, not the dantian, but now it is distorted into the dantian, and that is the problem.

Dantian, Dan is a small medicine, and Tian is farmland.
The so-called Dan Dao started from the black liver medicine. There is no Dan in the water and fire stage.
Practicing Qi is the stage of water and fire.

 

下腹部的呼吸就是下腹部的呼吸，不是丹田，但是現在卻被扭曲為丹田，這就是問題所在。

丹田，丹就是小藥，田就是農田。
丹道從烏肝小藥開始才有所謂的丹。在水火階段是沒有丹的。
練氣就是水火階段。

 

 

－－－－－－

After I finished writing this sentence, before I posted it on Facebook, I suddenly saw a fellow Taoist posting it on Messenger, so I reposted it here.

 

這句話是我在寫完這段之後，還沒貼出到臉書之前，突然看到有道友貼在messenger的，所以我把它轉貼過來。

 

「丹書 有一句話 『不是虛空不造丹』 我很認同」

 

“There is a saying in the alchemy book, "It is not the void that does not make Dan" I agree with it very much”

 

This may be a cultural barrier. When I contact Taoists in Taiwan or mainland China, they will obtain other deeper knowledge of alchemy from other channels. But in this place, it is very difficult.

 

這可能就是文化障礙，我在接觸台灣或者中國大陸的道友的時候，他們會從其他管道獲得其他更深的丹道知識。但是在這個地方，就非常困難。

Edited January 30, 2023 by awaken

[dwai]

Several straw people have been animated and then summarily executed on this thread. A few are listed below -

 

• That all "sensory" perceptions need to stop to operate with innate/primordial consciousness. It reflects a typical lack of understanding of how consciousness and the senses are interrelated. It also reflects a lack of understanding of what the "mind" is and how it works.
• The "Carrying" and the "transfer method" dichotomy is incorrect. Sometimes we need to carry and sometimes transfer. For example, for daily transactions,  we use cash, and we "carry it". When we run out, we "transfer" cash from an ATM and replenish our wallets/purses, etc. For all intends and purposes, in the transactional sense, we carry. 
• The issue vis-a-vis squatting and sitting. It is very obvious to anyone that squatting is better if you've done so from childhood. It keeps your weight under control, and cleanses you from inside out. Sitting is less beneficial and such people will "carry" yucky qi in their lower belly and stink up their auras ()

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

It'd be real nice if all these months of disagreement were based on an understanding of who was and wasn't using intention to guide the process...

Oh I always understood what she meant  

 

I don’t agree with her on all points - but guiding the qi with intention - whether visualised or directed with focused mind or with some other sensation is indeed incorrect.

It’s something that is taught very often but as Awaken says it blocks of access to deeper layers of the process (as well as severely limiting the amount of qi that can be generated/regulated).

 

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

The "Carrying" and the "transfer method" dichotomy

In Awaken’s terminology ‘carrying method’ and ‘transfer method’ are one and the same thing.

 

It simply means using the mind to cause change… she correctly (imo) points out that using acquired consciousness to move qi (or enter ‘meditative’ states) is incorrect…