On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic practice

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

my humble expertise fails me miserably on this exalted  topic so i cannot name them. What does it mean name them? Lights have special names? Or the underlying phenomena do?

The latter.

 

I don’t think it’s exalted… You just made an assertion that you understand the phenomena I’ve talked about.

 

I’m just questioning whether you actually do - or you’re just saying stuff  

 

PS - phenomena are not particularly important for me - it’s just what you two seem to be most interested in here…

 

Though now I’m asking for more of your understandings, and you get all coy about it 

Edited January 31, 2023 by freeform

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

They both have classical names.

Classical the names might be, but not singular

4 hours ago, freeform said:

If you name the first and 4th light phenomena,

if by the 1st you mean the light that appears first in the alch. process then is associated with sharira and moonshine 

 

若舍利足，而蟾光现

Once the qi lair issues light it means that ‘in the empty room there is a white light (Zhuang-zhou 庄周)’ the sharira is completed

When the sharira is ready a moonshine appears,

 

 

[Barnaby]

Quite amusing how we had that epic thread about visualization and how un-Daoist it was, and now it turns out there’s all this visual stuff going on in nei dan practice… 😂

 

After all visualization doesn’t have to imply effort or artifice. It can just mean visualize, in the sense of “see”.

[Wilhelm]

7 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

Quite amusing how we had that epic thread about visualization and how un-Daoist it was, and now it turns out there’s all this visual stuff going on in nei dan practice… 😂

 

After all visualization doesn’t have to imply effort or artifice. It can just mean visualize, in the sense of “see”.

I would have thought this came up there at least once... I think the stance taken by the three people discussing the phenomena is that they occur naturally as a consequence of ones development, they aren't formed by mental action (and in every definition of visualization I just checked there was an implication of mental action)

[Barnaby]

Visualization, Merriam Webster: to make visible

 

In this case, the practice is making it visible apparently…

[Wilhelm]

58 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

Visualization, Merriam Webster: to make visible

 

In this case, the practice is making it visible apparently…

Hmmm... I wonder if the gang would agree with such a notion.  If they did, it would imply direct causation as opposed to a spontaneous occurrence from maintaining the correct conditions/prerequisites, which would be interesting.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Wilhelm

[freeform]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

if by the 1st you mean the light that appears first in the alch. process then is associated with sharira and moonshine 

 

No - that’s not what it was… something quite different.

 

By 1st I meant my description here: 

Quote

1 - white light like snow envelops the inner vision from around the sides… fills the vision. After, when I open my eyes all I can see is white for several hours. Slowly the white receded and it was like looking through fog.

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by freeform

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Barnaby said:

Quite amusing how we had that epic thread about visualization and how un-Daoist it was, and now it turns out there’s all this visual stuff going on in nei dan practice… 😂

 

After all visualization doesn’t have to imply effort or artifice. It can just mean visualize, in the sense of “see”.

Totally.

 

Its a silly thing to focus on anyway - even if it’s uncontrived and not imagined.

Any phenomena are unimportant… not visual phenomena, not kinesthetic… not auditory… 

 

I almost never talk about them for that reason.

 

My teacher doesn’t use visual phenomena as signs of attainment either - he’s more interested in physical/physiological transformation as that indicates complete transformation to him. As I mentioned many times - there are specific tests for this…
 

I disagree with Awaken or TT that these phenomena denote the achievement of the various levels of alchemy… it may be an indicator of a process - but the transformation is quite literal and must extend from the spiritual and energetic all the way into the manifest realm if they’re genuine and ‘complete’… every true transformation happens on every level of one’s being.

 

When I see phenomena being discussed at length (just like with Ingram) I know the ones discussing it are low level transfer method peasants 

 

(I should really come up with my own term to denigrate others with… afterall Awaken said that when your heart opens like hers is - this is how one must behave 😬)

Edited January 31, 2023 by freeform

[liminal_luke]

22 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

(I should really come up with my own term to denigrate others with… afterall Awaken said that when your heart opens like hers is - this is how one must behave 😬)

 

I consider myself lucky to have known you, if only virtually, at this precious and fleeting state of your development.  Advanced enough to be knowledgeable, innocent enough to be kind.  In time you're sure to progress to the point where you start hitting your spiritual inferiors with a cane and muttering "low level" under your breath.  

Edited January 31, 2023 by liminal_luke

[dwai]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I consider myself lucky to have known you, if only virtually, at this precious and fleeting state of your development.  Advanced enough to be knowledgeable, innocent enough to be kind.  In time you're sure to progress to the point where you start hitting you spiritual inferiors with a cane and muttering "low level" under your breath.  

Don’t forget about the sneaky fake qi masters who give people the license to carry (concealed or open will depend on the state you are in of course). 

[awaken]

9 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

it also depends on the age. 今人采药，少年者半年工夫，中年者一年工夫，老人须三年工夫

 

 

I have the writing premise, the gifted one. The old man has already lost more than half of his talent. If it is a talented teenager, like me who started practicing before the age of 20, my little medicine didn't take time, it was almost there from the beginning. The same is true of my son, who was born with small medicines. Some of my students have been able to see the light since childhood. However, among my students, there are also old people who have practiced for four or five years and still have no small medicine. There are quite a lot of variables. But there is still an approximate average.

 

我有寫前提，有天賦的人。

老人算是已經失去一大半天賦了。
如果是一個有天賦的少年，像我不到二十歲就開始練，我的小藥是沒有花時間的，幾乎是一開始練就有。

我兒子也是同樣的情況，天生就產生小藥。

我的學生也有從小就一直看得到光的人。

不過我的學生裡面也有老人練了四五年還是沒有小藥。
變數蠻多的。
但是還是有一個大約的平均數。

[awaken]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Classical the names might be, but not singular

if by the 1st you mean the light that appears first in the alch. process then is associated with sharira and moonshine 

 

若舍利足，而蟾光现

Once the qi lair issues light it means that ‘in the empty room there is a white light (Zhuang-zhou 庄周)’ the sharira is completed

When the sharira is ready a moonshine appears,

 

 

 

You say this is "empty room makes white".
The Freeform phenomenon is not this.
"Empty room grows white" is the marrow of a rabbit, and he hasn't had it yet.

 

你講這個是「虛室生白」。
Freeform的現象不是這個。
「虛室生白」是兔髓，他還沒有。

 

"Empty rooms give birth to whiteness" is at least the moonlight of the rabbit's marrow, or the great full moon of the big mandala.
In fact, I personally prefer the big full moon defined as the big mandala, because the appearance of this big full moon will be accompanied by other related phenomena, and you will be very clear that a major breakthrough has been made.

That's why I often say that the transfer method has distorted too many alchemy terms, and "empty room produces whiteness" is also one of the distorted terms.

 

「虛室生白」至少是兔髓的月光，或者是大曼陀羅的大圓月。
其實我個人比較傾向定義為大曼陀羅的大圓月，因為這個大圓月的出現，會伴隨其他相關的現象，你自己會非常清楚已經有了重大突破。

所以我會經常說搬運法扭曲了太多丹道名詞，「虛室生白」也是被扭曲的名詞之一。

Edited February 1, 2023 by awaken

[awaken]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Totally.

 

Its a silly thing to focus on anyway - even if it’s uncontrived and not imagined.

Any phenomena are unimportant… not visual phenomena, not kinesthetic… not auditory… 

 

I almost never talk about them for that reason.

 

My teacher doesn’t use visual phenomena as signs of attainment either - he’s more interested in physical/physiological transformation as that indicates complete transformation to him. As I mentioned many times - there are specific tests for this…
 

I disagree with Awaken or TT that these phenomena denote the achievement of the various levels of alchemy… it may be an indicator of a process - but the transformation is quite literal and must extend from the spiritual and energetic all the way into the manifest realm if they’re genuine and ‘complete’… every true transformation happens on every level of one’s being.

 

When I see phenomena being discussed at length (just like with Ingram) I know the ones discussing it are low level transfer method peasants 

 

(I should really come up with my own term to denigrate others with… afterall Awaken said that when your heart opens like hers is - this is how one must behave 😬)

 

Not a visual phenomenon, but a third eye phenomenon.
Get to the point where the grass forms a circle when you look at it.
This is one of the symptoms of black liver.
The light like rabbit marrow appears in a state where consciousness has disappeared. At that time, there is no sense of sight, hearing, or touch.

Those who have not achieved it are not qualified to choose to believe or not to believe.
It should be achieved by yourself before you are qualified to choose to believe or not to believe.

The Danjing does not use light as a single indicator, nor have I ever used light as a single indicator.

Using light as a single indicator is very misleading.
Although a phenomenon like Freeform is white light, it is not "whiteness created by a void", because its "sequence" is inconsistent.

 

不是視覺現象，是第三眼的現象。
練到一個程度，當你看著草地的時候，草地就會形成一個圓形。
這是烏肝的現象之一。
像兔髓的光，是出現在意識已經消失的狀態，那時候是沒有視覺，聽覺，觸覺。

沒有達到的人沒有資格選擇相信或者不相信。
應該是自己達到了，才有資格選擇相信或者不相信。

丹經沒有使用光作為單一指標，我也從來沒有使用光作為單一指標。

使用光作為單一指標，是非常容易誤解的。
像Freeform的現象雖然是白光，但是卻不是「虛室生白」，因為他的「次第」是不符合的。

 

 

Focusing on physiological phenomena is the primary "qi", which belongs to the level of touch, water and fire.
But light belongs to the level of metal and wood, not the same level.

 

專注於生理現象是初級的「氣」，屬於觸覺，水和火的層次。
而光是屬於金和木的層次，不是同一個層次。

Edited February 1, 2023 by awaken

[awaken]

4 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

I would have thought this came up there at least once... I think the stance taken by the three people discussing the phenomena is that they occur naturally as a consequence of ones development, they aren't formed by mental action (and in every definition of visualization I just checked there was an implication of mental action)

 

Not mental activity.

You have not achieved it, and many of these things you said are misunderstandings.

 

不是心理活動。

你沒有達到，你講這些很多都是誤解。

 

Normal people can see it in a hundred days. I really can't understand why you would rather stand outside the door and guess, but don't want to spend a hundred days in the door to understand.

 

正常人花一百天就能看到，我實在無法理解你為什麼寧願站在門外亂猜，卻不願意花一百天進去門內了解。

 

 

 

The emergence of black liver has no clear flow of thoughts.
The rabbit's marrow was already in a deep sleep, without consciousness.
I really have no way to explain to those who have not achieved what it means to have depth perception without mental activities.
These are the contents of samadhi, not the mental activities in the conscious state.

 

烏肝的產生已經是沒有什麼清楚的念頭流動了。
兔髓更是身體已經完全沈睡了，沒有意識了。
我實在沒辦法跟沒有達成的人講什麼叫做沒有心理活動還能有深度覺。
這些都是屬於三摩地的內容，不是意識狀態下的心理活動。

Edited February 1, 2023 by awaken

[Wilhelm]

6 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

Not mental activity.

You have not achieved it, and many of these things you said are misunderstandings.

 

不是心理活動。

你沒有達到，你講這些很多都是誤解。

 

Normal people can see it in a hundred days. I really can't understand why you would rather stand outside the door and guess, but don't want to spend a hundred days in the door to understand.

 

正常人花一百天就能看到，我實在無法理解你為什麼寧願站在門外亂猜，卻不願意花一百天進去門內了解。

Were saying the same thing again 😅 I think the translation didn't work very well here.

 

I'm sure I have plenty of other misunderstandings though.  The system I practice is obviously very different from Dan Dao.

 

I think you are very skilled and I appreciate you explaining everything in detail but to answer your question I'm happy with what I'm learning and not looking to add new methods right now.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Wilhelm

[awaken]

7 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Were saying the same thing again 😅 I think the translation didn't work very well here.

 

I'm sure I have plenty of other misunderstandings though.  The system I practice is obviously very different from Dan Dao.

 

 

The transfer method originally misunderstood Dan Dao too seriously.

That's why I say that one needs to read the classics and not listen to the nonsense of qigong masters.

That's why I will write classic explanations in my second book.

If it's not helpful to talk like this, I already want to drop these discussions and go straight to my third book.

For the third book, I plan to write Lu Zu's poems.

Many nouns in the transfer method come from Lu Zu's poems. They use Lu Zu's nouns, but seriously distort the meaning of the nouns.

 

搬運法本來就誤解丹道太嚴重了。

所以才說一個人需要看經典，不要聽氣功大師亂講。

所以我第二本書才會寫經典解釋。

如果這樣講沒什麼用處，我已經想要放下這些討論，直接去寫我的第三本書了。

第三本書我打算寫呂祖的詩。

搬運法很多名詞來自於呂祖的詩，他們使用了呂祖的名詞，卻嚴重了扭曲的名詞的含義。

 

Your misunderstanding does not come from you personally, but from the system created by the transfer practitioners you come into contact with.
But you are also an individual, and you have free will to go your own way.

 

你的誤解不是來自於你個人，而是來自於你所接觸的搬運法練習者所創造出來的體系。
但是你也是一個個人，你可以有自由意志去走你自己的路。

Edited February 1, 2023 by awaken

[Wilhelm]

6 minutes ago, awaken said:

Basically, the production of these lights can only be produced without psychological thinking and consciousness activities, which is exactly the opposite of what you said.

I can see why it would seem that way, but I think there was an error in translation here:

 

3 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Hmmm... I wonder if the gang would agree with such a notion.  If they did, it would imply direct causation as opposed to a spontaneous occurrence from maintaining the correct conditions/prerequisites, which would be interesting.

I was responding to Barnaby who was making a joke about visualization, and I was saying I don't think they're created/visualized but I wanted to hear what you and Taoist Texts and Freeform thought.  Just a miscommunication.

 

6 minutes ago, awaken said:

You are practicing the method of carrying, but you want to understand Dan Dao, which itself is a kind of contradictory behavior.

Yes I really like learning about Dan Dao, but I don't think I've said anything about my practice yet.  What it is that you think I do?

Edited February 1, 2023 by Wilhelm

[awaken]

5 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I can see why it would seem that way, but I think there was an error in translation here:

 

I was responding to Barnaby who was making a joke about visualization, and I was saying I don't think they're created/visualized but I wanted to hear what you and Taoist Texts and Freeform thought.  Just a miscommunication.

 

Yes I really like learning about Dan Dao, but I don't think I've said anything about my practice yet.  What it is that you think I do?

 

Well, the problem with translation, plus the western world is full of wrong knowledge about moving methods.

When my English is good enough, I will find a way to publish an English book.

 

好吧，翻譯的問題，加上西方世界充斥著錯誤的搬運法知識。

等我英文夠好，我會想辦法出版英文書吧。

 

 

[steve]

12 hours ago, awaken said:

…

 

@awaken

 

What is truly incredible is how much of your time and life force is spent here judging and criticizing others and their practices. This post is disrespectful. Please edit it It has been hidden and edit your attitude or take a sabbatical to work on your book.

Thank you,

The management

 

[Taoist Texts]

14 hours ago, freeform said:

Though now I’m asking for more of your understandings, and you get all coy about it 

Actually i genuinely did not understand the question. Now i see that in your lineage  '1 phenomenon=1 name' but it is not so in the rest of the textual neidan as my scans above demonstrate

8 hours ago, freeform said:

No - that’s not what it was… something quite different.

thats all good. if you are happy then i am happy.

 

Somehow this made me to go back to the OP. 

Quote

(i.e. Arhatship, Immortality, Rainbow Body etc. or even any of the Siddhi)

It seems, the OP asks: these traditional achievements (goalposts)  are obviously fantastic so its either:

A] the tradition lies. OR. B] these words do not mean what they mean (they are metaphors).

I did not see the direct answer to this dilemma on the preceding 17 pages, so here it is. The answer is the goalposts are literal and real but only subjectively. When you achieve them, to you,  they will be as literally real as a chair you sit on but only in your mind's reality. They will not exist for anyone else.

 

(That said of course there are people who claim that fantastic miracles like siddhi etc are objectively real, a claim that cannot be reasonably discussed.)

 

 

[awaken]

6 hours ago, steve said:

 

@awaken

 

What is truly incredible is how much of your time and life force is spent here judging and criticizing others and their practices. This post is disrespectful. Please edit it and edit your attitude or take a sabbatical to work on your book.

Thank you,

The management

 

 

 

Respect is mutual, and disrespect for Tao is also inappropriate.

 

尊重是互相的，對於道的不尊重也是不應該的。

 

you are right.
I do waste too much time on someone.

 

你說得對。
我確實浪費太多時間在某個人身上。

 

I won't respond to this person again, too many pitfalls.

 

我不會再回應這個人了，太多坑。

 

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

They will not exist for anyone else.

Not always so… in fact some of the critical achievements do exist for others…

 

where the process (that produces inner phenomena) reaches conclusion - there’s a full transformation - rather than arising and falling away there’s a constant result - on the spiritual level, on the energetic level and on the physical level.

 

That’s what the ‘miraculous’ attainments are pointing to.
 

Quote

Actually i genuinely did not understand the question. Now i see that in your lineage  '1 phenomenon=1 name'

 

Yeah I worked that out a little later. You were talking about what is classically understood to be the first light phenomenon… and I was talking about the light phenomenon that was simply first on my list (the list was in no particular order).

Sorry for the confusion.

 

Actually Awaken got it:

 

Quote

You say this is "empty room makes white".
The Freeform phenomenon is not this.

But then she says it wasn’t this 😅

 

I think she might be judging from the wrong orifice 😬

 

Though entering the white room is not what I got from that description you posted - which talked about golden light. Mine was pure white like snow.

 

Ahh the joy of comparing phenomena 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Not always so… in fact some of the critical achievements do exist for others…on the physical level.

That’s what the ‘miraculous’ attainments are pointing to.

This time I know exactly what you mean. Which is all well and good but  like i noted in the caveat above this is not a subject that can be rationally discussed. Because every discussion of physical 'miraculous’ attainments is boiled down to the dialog below:

 

-The true believer: Yay, the miracles exist!

-The silly skeptic: Great, can i see them?

-The true believer: No.

 

And this is the point at which  the rational discussion leaves the building. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Taoist Texts

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

10 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

This time I know exactly what you mean. Which is all well and good but  like i noted in the caveat above this is not a subject that can be rationally discussed. Because every discussion of physical 'miraculous’ attainments is boiled down to the dialog below:

 

-The true believer: Yay, the miracles exist!

-The silly skeptic: Great, can i see them?

-The true believer: No.

 

And this is the point at which  the rational discussion leaves the building. 

Do you believe faqi exists?

[Taoist Texts]

24 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Do you believe faqi exists?

If it is a skin-to-skin contact like on the vid then sure. But out of sight - no.