Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

When Layman Pang took leave..., (he) pointed to the snow in the air and said, "Good snowflakes--they don't fall in any other place."

(Case 42 "The Blue Cliff Record", Yuanwu, tr. Cleary & Cleary, p 253)

 

An update of some remarks I made in 2014 that concern the infinity of ether, and also the experience of action of the body in the absence of volition, which the Japanese call "ishinashini" (and which the late Sasaki roshi of Mt. Baldy in L.A. cited as a justification for his groping his female disciples):
 

Gautama mentions extending the mind of compassion in the ten directions to infinity, and says the "excellence of the heart's release" in such an extension is the attainment of the realm of infinite ether (the first arupa jhana, or immaterial trance).

 

Lately I’m on a lot about proprioception in equalibrioception– “with no part of the body left out”, a singularity in the sense of location and a freedom of the sense of location to move.

 

More correctly, though, it’s got to be all of the senses including touch “with no part left out”, where “with no part left out” is the extension of the mind of compassion in the ten directions to infinity. An openness to all parts informing a singularity in the location of awareness.

 

And a relinquishment of volition in activity, with self-surrender the object of thought, so that when the wind blows from the realm of infinite ether the limbs can move, so to speak.

 

Or not. I guess the relinquishment of volition is a matter of well-being, the well-being that draws us all as a source of non-material happiness, and whether or not the windy element moves the body is hardly significant. Except to me, because of the lack of doubt I experience in being drawn along.

 

It gets complicated when people like Sasaki claim that they did their misdeeds as a matter of ishinashini, that their hand was will-less. Belief is involved, so although a lot of folks see Zen as somehow beyond reason, the fact is that reason doesn’t go away and belief is involved, even when volition ceases.

 

The realm of infinite ether with its "motile air" (as in the Visuddhimagga) doesn't move me from any other place.  

 

 

Mark, apparently you could relate in some ways the Upanishad, that's cool.  Btw, I like Zen because of its paradoxical Koans. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by old3bob

[liminal_luke]

10 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

Mark, apparently you could relate in some ways the Upanishad, that's cool.  Btw, I like Zen because of its paradoxical Koans. 

 

Paradox, like reality itself, cannot be grasped by the rational mind.  For this reason I believe paradox is a blue ribbon doorway to the nondual.  Honorable mention goes to metaphor. 

[old3bob]

"Now what are we supposed to do?"

 

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by old3bob

[steve]

Along those lines is contradiction -

 

https://lesliehershberger.com/beinspired/embrace-your-inner-contradictions/

[manitou]

Schroedinger and his cat would argue about subject and object being independent of each other.

 

the way I see it, each atom - whether it's an atom in a lampshade or an atom in our bodies, is made up of .00000000000001% "matter". (13  0's)  By matter, I mean the quantifiable stuff that science is able to measure.  The other 99.9999999999999% (13 9's) is space.  And I don't doubt that the only reason we think we see the small amount of matter in the atom is because our instruments cannot yet measure that which is smaller than the components of the atom.  I think most likely that there will turn out to be nothing there at all.  Other than thought.  Whose thought?  The communal thought (call it god?) of all of us that were, are, and will be.  The communal thought, the consciousness, of rocks, trees, dogs, cats, and lampshades.  The thought that is all happening Now.

 

When I learned that the only thing that distinguishes, in an embryo, what kind of cell the identical developing cells are going to turn into - a hair cell, a blood cell, etc - is how they line up next to each other.  This kicked me in the gut, the realization of the intelligence manifesting from the inside to the outside, the intelligence contained within life.  Within the cells.  Within the intent!  How does the hair on a dog's body know when to stop growing to make it a schnauzer?  Sure, we can say "DNA" as the answer, but isn't DNA the very intelligence we're talking about?  And that same intelligence is passed on to inanimate objects that we make, that we create, that we ideate.  There's just so much intelligence happening around us at every passing moment that we take for granted.  Even the lampshade knows to retain its form as a lampshade.  Why don't the atoms just fly apart?  Why do they remember that they're a lampshade and need to stay in that shape?  We have a shelf life, so does a lampshade, so does a rock.  It's the way of nature.  It's all temporary and passing, dictated merely by the rotation of the earth around the sun.  Life, apparently, is rotation.  It is motion, always.

 

This is the non-duality, this intelligence that is One, that people who realize the non-duality understand.  They can't 'speak of it'.  The Dao that can be spoken is not the real Dao.   They understand it in their bones, the awareness is ever present and can be called up at any time.  This 'living-ness of everything', this Intent, this Mutual Attraction, this Movement.  To try and explain to someone who hasn't had the deep and moving experience of This is impossible unless the other person has this self-realization as well; the self-realization of who they really are and what they are a part of.

 

There's a 12 story building, and some stand on the 11th floor insisting that it's only an 11 story building.  As long as they insist that it's only an 11 story building, they will remain on the 11th floor.  The people on the 12th, people with beginner's minds who are still teachable, are wondering how many stories are above the 12th.

[C T]

Thank you, Manitou. Keenly observed. I must admit though I'm still on the 11th floor with regards to the notion of all being One 😄 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

Schroedinger and his cat would argue about subject and object being independent of each other.

 

the way I see it, each atom - whether it's an atom in a lampshade or an atom in our bodies, is made up of .00000000000001% "matter". (13  0's)  By matter, I mean the quantifiable stuff that science is able to measure.  The other 99.9999999999999% (13 9's) is space.  And I don't doubt that the only reason we think we see the small amount of matter in the atom is because our instruments cannot yet measure that which is smaller than the components of the atom.  I think most likely that there will turn out to be nothing there at all.  Other than thought.  Whose thought?  The communal thought (call it god?) of all of us that were, are, and will be.  The communal thought, the consciousness, of rocks, trees, dogs, cats, and lampshades.  The thought that is all happening Now.

 

When I learned that the only thing that distinguishes, in an embryo, what kind of cell the identical developing cells are going to turn into - a hair cell, a blood cell, etc - is how they line up next to each other.  This kicked me in the gut, the realization of the intelligence manifesting from the inside to the outside, the intelligence contained within life.  Within the cells.  Within the intent!  How does the hair on a dog's body know when to stop growing to make it a schnauzer?  Sure, we can say "DNA" as the answer, but isn't DNA the very intelligence we're talking about?  And that same intelligence is passed on to inanimate objects that we make, that we create, that we ideate.  There's just so much intelligence happening around us at every passing moment that we take for granted.  Even the lampshade knows to retain its form as a lampshade.  Why don't the atoms just fly apart?  Why do they remember that they're a lampshade and need to stay in that shape?  We have a shelf life, so does a lampshade, so does a rock.  It's the way of nature.  It's all temporary and passing, dictated merely by the rotation of the earth around the sun.  Life, apparently, is rotation.  It is motion, always.

 

This is the non-duality, this intelligence that is One, that people who realize the non-duality understand.  They can't 'speak of it'.  The Dao that can be spoken is not the real Dao.   They understand it in their bones, the awareness is ever present and can be called up at any time.  This 'living-ness of everything', this Intent, this Mutual Attraction, this Movement.  To try and explain to someone who hasn't had the deep and moving experience of This is impossible unless the other person has this self-realization as well; the self-realization of who they really are and what they are a part of.

 

There's a 12 story building, and some stand on the 11th floor insisting that it's only an 11 story building.  As long as they insist that it's only an 11 story building, they will remain on the 11th floor.  The people on the 12th, people with beginner's minds who are still teachable, are wondering how many stories are above the 12th.

 

cool, but did you mean to say non-duality is "all temporary" in the paragraph following that?

 

I'd say If the Self is changing and temporary then there is no "Self" as It is pointed to in the Upanishads by Self realized Rishi's and imo even in Buddhism in a way  if one looks for the historic Buddha giving It witness,  and if such is not so then we are all S.O.L..    

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by old3bob

[manitou]

25 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

cool, but did you mean to say non-duality is "all temporary" in the paragraph following that?

 

I'd say If the Self is changing and temporary then there is no "Self" as It is pointed to in the Upanishads by Self realized Rishi's and imo even in Buddhism in a way  if one looks for the historic Buddha giving It witness,  and if such is not so then we are all S.O.L..    

 

 

 

Didn't mean to infer that non-duality is all temporary, I was speaking of the play that we're in.

[manitou]

1 hour ago, C T said:

Thank you, Manitou. Keenly observed. I must admit though I'm still on the 11th floor with regards to the notion of all being One 😄 

 

 

If the action of the Dao is reversion, this would infer that the 10,000 things are always in a state of reverting back to the One, or to the underlying Void.  This void is the thing inside that doesn't age or doesn't move.  This is the 'oneness' that I'm talking about.  It underlies, and only the experiential revelation of self realization will reveal it to the experiencer.  The distance between the finger and the moon.

[manitou]

On 6/23/2022 at 8:28 AM, Bindi said:

The object exists in all its undiminished glory whether it is perceived or not. FWIW the subtle body too exists in all its potential glory whether it is perceived or not. The object doesn’t require someone to perceive it to exist. Once perceived the perceiver can affect the object according to quantum physics, but fundamentally the object exists whether perceived or not. The only difference is whether the object is acted upon or not, not whether it exists or not. 

 

 

The way I see it, is through the old question, 'if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?'  The obvious answer is, 'Sure'.  But on second thought, if there are no tympanic membranes around to interpret those sound waves, the moment will pass by uninterpreted by any entity.  

[old3bob]

14 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

The way I see it, is through the old question, 'if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?'  The obvious answer is, 'Sure'.  But on second thought, if there are no tympanic membranes around to interpret those sound waves, the moment will pass by uninterpreted by any entity.  

 

Its another story though if a bear shits in the woods for sooner or later someone will smell it, especially another bear, lol

Btw. if someone wants to find profound insight in that more power to them...

[Bindi]

15 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

The way I see it, is through the old question, 'if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?'  The obvious answer is, 'Sure'.  But on second thought, if there are no tympanic membranes around to interpret those sound waves, the moment will pass by uninterpreted by any entity.  

 

If sound is vibrations, then the falling tree certainly does make a sound, because it produces vibrations in the air. Even if there’s no person or other animal around to hear the sound, a recorder with a microphone could certainly record those vibrations—as sound. 

 

Another definition is that sound is the sensation we experience when our ears detect those vibrations and send information about those vibrations to the brain. In other words, by this second definition, sound is what we hear, i.e., the perception in our brains.

 

So if sound is what we hear, and no one is around to hear the tree fall, then it doesn’t make a sound! That’s opposite to the answer we had earlier. Which answer is correct? Here’s how to know: When someone asks you, “If a tree falls in a forest, and there’s no one around to hear it, does it make a sound,” first ask, What do you mean by sound? Define sound! Once you hear the definition they’re using, you’ll know the answer. If they say that sound is vibrations in the air, then the answer is yes! If they say that sound is only what a person hears, then the answer is no.

 

https://www.nsta.org/q-if-tree-falls-forest-and-theres-no-one-around-hear-it-does-it-make-sound

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, C T said:

 

I must admit though I'm still on the 11th floor with regards to the notion of all being One 😄 

 

 

The miracle of the extension of the mind of compassion through the four quarters of the world, above and below, is in the ishinashini that is in accord with a future that hasn't taken place yet.  

 

 

The man sitting atop the hundred-foot pole:

Though he's gained entry, this is not yet the real.

Atop the hundred-foot pole, he should step forward;

The universe is all directions is the whole body.

("Book of Serenity", tr. Cleary, Shambala p 335)

 

[old3bob]

41 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

The miracle of the extension of the mind of compassion through the four quarters of the world, above and below, is in the ishinashini that is in accord with a future that hasn't taken place yet.  

 

 

The man sitting atop the hundred-foot pole:

Though he's gained entry, this is not yet the real.

Atop the hundred-foot pole, he should step forward;

The universe is all directions is the whole body.

("Book of Serenity", tr. Cleary, Shambala p 335)
 

 

I take that to mean effort attained the top of the pole but it will take a leap of faith to then step off of it...

[Mark Foote]

5 hours ago, steve said:

 

Along those lines is contradiction -

 

https://lesliehershberger.com/beinspired/embrace-your-inner-contradictions/

 

To this day, I'm amazed by Godel's proofs (which I have yet to acquire a basis in formal logic to see in full).  The two proofs from the 1930's established that any set of axioms that gives rise to all that is known to be true in mathematics will also give rise to contradictions.

In the early twentieth century, there was a heated debate among mathematicians over the use of the law of the "excluded middle", a common axiom of logic:

 

The law of excluded middle can be expressed by the propositional formula "either p or not p". It means that a statement is either true or false. Think of it as claiming that there is no middle ground between being true and being false. Every statement has to be one or the other.

(https://web.stanford.edu/~bobonich/glances ahead/IV.excluded.middle.html, logical symbols replaced with English)
 

 

Turns out that accepting the law of the excluded middle gives rise to contradictions when working with infinite sets.

Learning something every day--I discover on Wikipedia the following:

 

In his lecture in 1941 at Yale and the subsequent paper, Gödel proposed a solution: "that the negation of a universal proposition was to be understood as asserting the existence … of a counterexample" (Dawson, p. 157).

... The debate (over the use of the "excluded middle" in mathematics) seemed to weaken: mathematicians, logicians and engineers continue to use the law of excluded middle (and double negation) in their daily work.

 

(Wikipedia, "excluded middle")

 

 

Fascinating, captain.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Mark Foote

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

 

The way I see it, is through the old question, 'if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?'  The obvious answer is, 'Sure'.  But on second thought, if there are no tympanic membranes around to interpret those sound waves, the moment will pass by uninterpreted by any entity.  

 

But the other growing things around that tree will be aware of the falling and the vibrations that accompany it.

Thus the falling of the tree will be part of the collective awareness.

[Mark Foote]

18 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

I take that to mean effort attained the top of the pole but it will take a leap of faith to then step off of it...

 

A leap of faith and an abiding awareness of breath, in my experience.  The emphasis on awareness of breath is the real strength of the teaching of the Gautamid (IMO).

At least, as far as ishinashini.  "Let the mind be present, without abode"--that's a relinquishment of volition in action of the body too, and anybody can experience that just before they fall asleep (more easily if they are trying to fall back asleep at 4am, and have had a drink of water).  That's what my Waking Up and Falling Asleep is all about.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Mark Foote

[C T]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

 

If the action of the Dao is reversion, this would infer that the 10,000 things are always in a state of reverting back to the One, or to the underlying Void.  This void is the thing inside that doesn't age or doesn't move.  This is the 'oneness' that I'm talking about.  It underlies, and only the experiential revelation of self realization will reveal it to the experiencer.  The distance between the finger and the moon.

 

Interesting. 

 

Assuming reversion occurs (which to my mind sounds likely, although there's that factor of simultaneous movement of expansion which requires equal consideration, too), Im not yet fully convinced of the necessity to reduce the ultimate fate of the 10,000 things to One since this process of reversion, as pointed out, is that which serves as the underlay, which, to my mind, must then mean this One, if indeed it is thus, must also be subject to it, without exception. Unless of course I have misunderstood the finality/ultimatum this One implies. 

[natural]

A throw back of sorts.

Is it real or Memorex?

If a recording can capture the effect?

Is it still real?

[Mark Foote]

9 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Interesting. 

 

Assuming reversion occurs (which to my mind sounds likely, although there's that factor of simultaneous movement of expansion which requires equal consideration, too), Im not yet fully convinced of the necessity to reduce the ultimate fate of the 10,000 things to One since this process of reversion, as pointed out, is that which serves as the underlay, which, to my mind, must then mean this One, if indeed it is thus, must also be subject to it, without exception. Unless of course I have misunderstood the finality/ultimatum this One implies. 

 

 

One thing or the other (law of the excluded middle)--that logic gives rise to contradictions, in that context (when applied to the infinite, especially when the infinite is taken to be a completed entity, as in "One").  

Edited June 24, 2022 by Mark Foote

[C T]

3 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

One thing or the other (law of the excluded middle)--with regard to an infinity, that logic gives rise to contradictions in that context.  

 

I haven't the faintest clue what this law implies, and therefore am unable to follow your assertion to its conclusion. 

Sorry, Mark. 

[natural]

9 minutes ago, C T said:

 

I haven't the faintest clue what this law implies, and therefore am unable to follow your assertion to its conclusion. 

Sorry, Mark. 

 

I don't either but my default nature leads me to promote love!

[C T]

7 minutes ago, natural said:

 

I don't either but my default nature leads me to promote love!

 

It worked then. Does this mean the end justifies the law of the excluded middle? 

jk

[natural]

10 minutes ago, C T said:

 

It worked then. Does this mean the end justifies the law of the excluded middle? 

jk

honestly IDK

[natural]

I guess I am a living example of insanity, I keep trying love and end up with a 50% 0f sucess.