waterdrop

Does somone advanced in buddhism know about qi dantians etc ?

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IS someone elightned  - lets say a buddhist monk  who is a buddhist monk for 60 years already  -   and is in a genuine path and has an actual enlightened teacher  and he is truly enlightened 

would he feel qi ?  see auras ?  see chakras ?  would he be healthy in his body ?   could he heal himself and others ?        or this stuff are just from the daoist,neigong path ?

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no need for names  -  i just wonder if someone who advances in the buddhist path  expirences jing and qi   - and gets to the same level in dealing with them like someone going thorugh the daoist path

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, waterdrop said:

IS someone elightned  - lets say a buddhist monk  who is a buddhist monk for 60 years already  -   and is in a genuine path and has an actual enlightened teacher  and he is truly enlightened 

would he feel qi ?  see auras ?  see chakras ?  would he be healthy in his body ?   could he heal himself and others ?        or this stuff are just from the daoist,neigong path ?

 

Different systems get different emphasizes and criteria to  judge their  own effectiveness .  Qi and Jing are mainly for Daoism , not for the Buddhist cultivation  .  Likely the Buddhists , especially  those followers of Zen's , will condemn Taoist  putting emphasize on jing and qi as some kinds of  attachment , barriers  to attaining the Enlightenment. 

 

Light,  its  size and brightness, should be  the main criteria for the Buddhist system as it starts straight from the emptied mind stuff,  with exception if  you follow  the Esoteric or Pure Land school . In fact, asking silly question like "Who am I "  , singing the name of the Buddha and   paying attention to some kind of  glow are all  varied kinds of attachment  that should  be condemned . The best way  is no way ,  the best path is no path , it is  true if  you get the mind to handle that kind of paradox . 

Edited by exorcist_1699
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3 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

 

Different systems get different emphasizes and criteria to  judge their  own effectiveness .  Qi and Jing are mainly for Daoism , not for the Buddhist cultivation  .  Likely the Buddhists , especially  those followers of Zen's , will condemn Taoist  putting emphasize on jing and qi as some kinds of  attachment , barriers  to attaining the Enlightenment. 

 

Light,  its  size and brightness, should be  the main criteria for the Buddhist system as it starts straight from the emptied mind stuff,  with exception if  you follow  the Esoteric or Pure Land school . In fact, asking silly question like "Who am I "  , singing the name of the Buddha and   paying attention to some kind of  glow are all  varied kinds of attachment  that should  be condemned . The best way  is no way ,  the best path is no path , it is  true if  you get the mind to handle that kind of paradox . 

I will second that. I recently became aware of a school that the teacher and some students display electrokinesis but have no concept of the LDT. Apparently it is either not needed to faqi or they somehow develop it without emphasizing it.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Zork said:

I will second that. I recently became aware of a school that the teacher and some students display electrokinesis but have no concept of the LDT. Apparently it is either not needed to faqi or they somehow develop it without emphasizing it.


Or they keep their methods secret!
 

I’ve come across a school in Indonesia where the guru clearly uses Neigong processes for his own development - but explains it as a Divine manifestation.

Edited by freeform
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3 hours ago, freeform said:


Or they keep their methods secret!
 

I’ve come across a school in Indonesia where the guru clearly uses Neigong processes for his own development - but explains it as a Divine manifestation.

It could be but for the time being i am not certain. I talked to him on the phone for a few minutes and he categorically refused that they use the LDT even as a concept.

A quick look at his short syllabus confirms that but only in part because there is a mention of microcosmic orbit using a nonstandard terminology.

 

I might know more in the coming months.

 

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Occasionally some influential Chinese Buddhist teachers talk about Daoism with a bit of contempt. Of course there are Buddhist versions of qigong as well as bodily cultivation practices in tantra, which follow more Indian models of physiology, so the concepts and principles are not quite the same.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

Occasionally some influential Chinese Buddhist teachers talk about Daoism with a bit of contempt. Of course there are Buddhist versions of qigong as well as bodily cultivation practices in tantra, which follow more Indian models of physiology, so the concepts and principles are not quite the same.

 

Buddhism offers a critical view towards teachings that do not come wisdom first. Wisdom is also taught in Daoism, but it's not usually as intensively presented.

 

Mahayana Buddhism doesn't put much emphasis at all on bodily cultivation, but traditionally it is achieved through deep Dhyana meditations if there is need. There might be other ways to cultivate the dantian with orthodox results, but Dhyana meditations are the simplest mind-level method to get this done and the historical Buddha taught it, so Buddhist practitioners are happy with that.

Edited by virtue
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As I read it in Yin Shun, whose views seemed to be quite influential among modern Buddhist teachers (eg Xing Yun, Sheng Yen), he classed Daoism as a "divine vehicle" like Hinduism, Islam, or Christianity; it could allow for rebirth into higher realms but only the Buddha Dharma could actually lead to liberation. There is a story I've seen in a number of places (I think Xing Yun shared it) about a contest of magic between some Buddhist monks and Daoist wizards, in front of some emperor (I forget which), where the scriptures of the two religions are placed side by side. The Buddhists walk to the debate whereas the Daoists fly in accompanied with all kinds of magical bombast. At the end the Daoists lose the debate and their scriptures spontaneously combust. Anyway the point is, Those Daoists are a bunch of good-for-nothing conjurers.

 

Of course many Buddhists have a more ecumenical attitude.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarjuna

 

I have read that Nāgārjuna had said the second dhyana has light.

 

修二禪下思生少光天。修二禪中思得生無量光天。修二禪上思得生妙光天。

 

The follow is my article in QQ space.

 

 

藍石  18:30:14
大佛頂如來密因修證了義諸菩薩萬行首楞嚴經卷第九[*](一名中印度那蘭陀大道場經,於灌頂部錄出別行)
 
[*]唐天竺沙門般剌蜜[*]帝[*]譯
 
「阿難!世間一切所修心人,不假禪那無有智慧,但能執身不行婬[2]慾,若行若坐想念俱無,愛染不生無留欲界,是人應念身為梵侶,如是一類名梵眾天;欲習既除離欲心現,於諸律儀愛樂隨順,是人應時能行梵德,如是一類名梵輔天;身心妙圓威儀不缺,清淨禁戒加以明悟,是人應時能統梵眾為大梵王,如是一類名大梵天。阿難!此三勝流,一切苦惱所不能逼,雖非正修真三摩地,清淨心中諸漏不動,名為初禪。
 
「阿難!其次梵天統攝梵人圓滿梵行,澄心不動寂湛生光,如是一類名少光天;光光相然照耀無盡,映十方界遍成瑠璃,如是一類名無量光天;吸持圓光成就教體,發化清淨應用無盡,如是一類名光音天。阿難!此三勝流,一切憂[3]愁所不能逼,雖非正修真三摩地,清淨心中麁漏已伏,名為二禪。
 
 
藍石  18:30:41
重點:澄心不動寂湛生光,光光相然照耀無盡,映十方界遍成瑠璃
藍石  18:32:44
二禪還有一個特徵,無覺無觀,你在光出現之後,如果你動用覺觀,有尋有俟,光很快就會消失
藍石  18:33:30
二禪還有一個特徵,一心,光出現的霎那,很快能夠收攝雜念,進入一心狀態
藍石  18:37:38
再找一段,龍樹寫的
藍石  18:37:40
十住毘婆沙論卷第十四
 
聖者龍樹造
 
後秦龜茲國三藏鳩摩羅什譯
藍石  18:38:01
先行清淨十善道離欲。修初禪下思得生梵眾天。修初禪中思生梵輔天。修初禪上思故得生大梵天。修二禪下思生少光天。修二禪中思得生無量光天。修二禪上思得生妙光天。修三禪下思得生小淨天。修三禪中思故得生無量淨天。修三禪上思得生遍淨天。修四禪下思故生阿那婆伽天。修四禪中思故生福生天。修四禪上思故生廣果天修無想定中思得生無想天。以無漏熏修四禪下思故生不廣天。以無漏熏修四禪勝思故生不熱天。以無漏熏修四禪勝思故生喜見天。以無漏熏修四禪勝思故生妙見天。以無漏熏修四禪最上思故生阿迦膩吒天。修虛空處定相應思得生空處天。修識處定相應思得生識處天。修無所有處定相應思得生無所有處天。修非有想非無想處定相應思得生非有想非無想處天。是名生死世間眾生往來之處。[
藍石  18:38:32
重點:修二禪下思生少光天。修二禪中思得生無量光天。修二禪上思得生妙光天。
藍石  18:40:55
再找到一段
藍石  18:40:57
彌勒菩薩所問經論[12]卷第七
 
[*]後魏天竺三藏菩提流支譯
藍石  18:41:17
「復有餘修多羅中佛告比丘:『過去世時有外道師名善眼世尊。彼外道師善眼世尊獲得神通離欲界煩惱。諸比丘!彼外道師善眼世尊多有無量聲聞弟子,有無量百、有無量千、有無量萬、有無量百千萬。諸比丘!彼外道師善眼世尊所有聲聞,具足持戒,彼外道人修四梵行離欲界煩惱,修四梵行生梵世間。諸比丘!彼外道師善眼世尊所有弟子,不能具足修四梵行,彼弟子中或生他化自在天者,乃至人中如是等。爾時,外道師善眼世尊生如是心:「我今不是,云何乃與弟子一處去一處生?」作是思惟:「我依慈心修第二禪生少光天。」諸比丘!彼時外道師善眼世尊修上大慈入第二禪生第[2]二禪。』如是等。」
藍石  18:41:26
重點:我依慈心修第二禪生少光天
 
藍石  19:02:00
初禪天名梵者梵是淨義。初離欲故故得淨名。第二禪名光者。初離尋伺故得光名。第三禪得淨名者。以得勝樂故。勝樂名淨也。第四禪凡聖共居三天。初無雲得名。餘隨福增為名。五[7]耶含天名云云。解無色界中。云隨行天眾同分中者。無色界天無別受報處。隨行三品即受此報。故言隨行天。然住所作有其差別者。謂住三品所作之業有其別也。今此文相還同婆沙。初定四空修三品業。受無別果。後三靜慮隨修三品業。受有別異果。第六明離欲者。相中有十三相。可引智論辨同或異也。
藍石  19:02:11
瑜伽論記卷第八(之上)(論本第三十三至三十四)
 
釋遁倫集撰
 
論本卷第三十三
 
第四瑜伽處
藍石  19:02:24
重點:第二禪名光者。初離尋伺故得光名
 

 
名山  19:02:57
性光是什么啊
藍石  19:03:14
" 名山 19:02:57
性光是什么啊 "
就是剛開始出現的光
藍石  19:03:30
你打坐的時候,難道沒有出現光?
名山  19:04:23
没有吧,偶尔有些乱七八糟的画面,没有光
藍石  19:04:25
如果沒有,那就是你的覺觀放太重,該放掉沒放掉,所以無法產生『離』有尋有伺
藍石  19:05:16
覺觀就是你的注意力是移動的,注意力可以放在身體不同的地方,放在呼吸,姿勢,心念,動作,覺受等等
名山  19:05:38
不是说,不是所有人都有光吗?
藍石  19:05:41
你練到某個程度,這種覺觀要放掉
藍石  19:05:58
" 名山 19:05:38
不是说,不是所有人都有光吗? "
所有的人都有?有嗎?你的定義是?
上善若水  19:06:03
[表情]
名山  19:06:37
书上看到的,有人有光,有人没有
藍石  19:07:03
光就是練的時候,眼前會出現光,顏色不一定,就個人而言,顏色也是會變色
藍石  19:07:17
形狀也是會變
名山  19:07:36
那个没什么用吧,
名山  19:07:46
我都不理的,
藍石  19:07:57
" 名山 19:07:36
那个没什么用吧, "
看你要做什麼用
藍石  19:08:04
如果你只想練氣功,那當然沒用
藍石  19:08:19
如果你想實修,入定,那二禪一定要經歷
名山  19:08:27
禅修
藍石  19:08:46
那你就是練到後面,注意力要鬆開
名山  19:08:54
不炼气,不炼丹
藍石  19:08:55
注意力鬆開,光自然就冒出來了
藍石  19:09:08
就是注意力沒鬆開,光才會冒不出來
藍石  19:09:28
所以才說二禪『無覺無觀』
名山  19:09:34
冒出来之后干嘛用
藍石  19:09:52
沒幹嘛,就是繼續放鬆,繼續練,越練越深,自然演化
名山  19:10:32
哦,那就没事,
藍石  19:10:51
[表情]
藍石  19:12:07
你每次練四十分鐘,就有問題
藍石  19:12:41
從氣感出來,到轉換成光感,再到入陰恍惚,每場起碼兩小時跑不掉
名山  19:12:44
大师兄说我需要4年才能入定,才两年,还要两年
藍石  19:12:47
四十分鐘真的太短
君子袖携风  19:13:03
其实状态好的话,坐久不累的
君子袖携风  19:13:16
整个人有一种挺拔绷直的感觉
君子袖携风  19:13:30
不会松松垮垮的腰酸背疼
藍石  19:13:42
四十分鐘只夠練氣,後面的時間不夠,就出不來
名山  19:13:47
没事,不急,慢慢来就会变好
藍石  19:14:07
與其練六場四十分鐘的,不如練兩場兩小時的
藍石  19:14:52
就像煮飯一樣,每次都從頭開始煮,每次都沒煮熟
藍石  19:15:05
與其每次都沒煮熟,不如好好煮一次,徹底煮熟
名山  19:15:12
我按我们寺院那边禅修的频率去做的
藍石  19:15:37
我是建議你試試看而已,反正沒損失什麼
名山  19:15:38
这事也急不来的
藍石  19:15:58
也不用急,也沒建議你急
名山  19:16:04
说的也是
藍石  19:16:12
是給兩個建議,一個是時間拉長,一個是注意力後面要放掉

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The Tibetans have a very rich inner body tradition, but it is described differently. They have quite a bit of body based practices, contrary to some opinions. There you would have prana, bindus, and nadis, 5 chakras that are correlated with the 5 skandhas, etc. There is also tummo, various forms of yoga, and all manner of practices. It is not uncommon for practitioners to remain in a state of suspended death for anywhere from an hour to several days or weeks (tukdam). More rare is the reported "rainbow body." 

 

Zen and Theravada also have some inner body work, but you typically have to look a bit harder. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

About the  no-way  is the best way  stuff, people may wonder how it be possible .  

 

Assume that you are a native speaker of English, do you  pay attention to any grammatical rules  when you speak English ?  You just speak it out straight from your mouth  those words ..If you have  any attention to those rules, never  can you speak  it so fluently . So, our mind does have a special ability to squeeze  a bundle of rules  to  no-rule  , and makes it work . 

 

 Similarly in the world of qi or  Buddhist practice. At high  level, you just start with no-way  ;  if you pay  attention to stuff like how to control your breathing, whether your qi being circulated  correctly   or how to get rid of those fluctuating ideas ( the harder  you try, the more they pop -up )..then hardly  can you  upgrade your practice for those attachments always entangle you ;  A no-way  emptied  Mind is what you need for your practice ;  in fact, high-quality qi ( pre-heavenly qi )  arisen only after your capable of consolidating such a Mind . 

Edited by exorcist_1699
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@exorcist_1699     what is your view about health and buddhist practitioners  ?    (as opposed to daoist ones  , as how a buddhist should keep his health etc etc ) 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/19/2020 at 5:16 PM, waterdrop said:

@exorcist_1699     what is your view about health and buddhist practitioners  ?    (as opposed to daoist ones  , as how a buddhist should keep his health etc etc ) 

 

I think real Buddhist masters know the importance of physical health as well , maybe sometime they look ignoring it is because Taoists talk too much about jing and qi ? 

 

Taoist view of  Zen's way  is   :  It  starts straight  by cultivating  Shen at the top level  and in one stroke  also  solves the middle ( qi) and bottom  ( jing ) levels issues. It is just a concentrated , non-gradual  way to  doing  jing => qi => shen   in  reverse order ,  which likely  be possible only for  gifted people . That means  if you do your emptied-Mind well, you simultaneously can get a diamond -like body  in both  physical and spiritual senses .  However, if you seemingly do your Emptied- mind  stuff well , say attaining  some  kind of foretelling ability  or capable of driving out some spirit   , yet  still get a weak , sick or aging  body, then definitely you are  only polishing some type of yin-qi  or  yin-mind  .  And, polishing a yin-typed of mind well  is nothing or not much  worthy of  boasting of . 

Edited by exorcist_1699
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  Thanks a lot i needed to read that and was the main reason behind this thread   -  i heared that in real life  but really to get confirmation it exists in a taoist forum was important for me

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On 5/12/2020 at 9:17 PM, waterdrop said:

IS someone elightned  - lets say a buddhist monk  who is a buddhist monk for 60 years already  -   and is in a genuine path and has an actual enlightened teacher  and he is truly enlightened 

would he feel qi ?  see auras ?  see chakras ?  would he be healthy in his body ?   could he heal himself and others ?        or this stuff are just from the daoist,neigong path ?

 

All Chinese monks have heard of dantian, chi and so on.   They possibly encounter some sensations during their meditation.  However nothing would come out of that.  Because they are supposed not letting any body sensations, feelings, visions and other anomalities to affect their mind training. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, idiot_stimpy said:

What about the Buddhist secret practice of Tummo. 

What about it?

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Posted (edited)

Both Buddhism and Taoism emphasize  the  importance of the emptied Mind,  in fact  , it is the core of both systems. The main difference is that Taoism knows well that to attain such an emptied Mind directly from people's existing status ( entangled in a weak  physical body  with various stresses and drives ; dominated by an overwhelming analytic mind..etc)  is nearly impossible . So better adopt an indirect  way of  initializing qi from jing first , then from qi    lets people grasp what an emptied Mind ( shen ) is .

 

Besides, once qi  is initialized and upgraded , lets it  settle the fluctuating minds is more easier  than asking the minds  to settle/ empty  itself as qi and mind gets yang  and yin  attract-to-each-other relationship  in between . 

 

However, any good way can be vulgarized , not because Taoist  is  inferior to the Buddhist , but because some not so clever people incline  to make thing  superficial so that they can grasp it .   


Remember that any attachment  to qi , to some glow, even to emptiness itself  will block you from advancing . Building a boat to  cross a river, but then you  have to abandon it,  is the metaphor always quoted so as to remind people of not being entangled by any attachment ;  it is true even you have  just attained  a great , laborious  achievement  one second ago .

Edited by exorcist_1699
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13 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

Both Buddhism and Taoism emphasize  the  importance of the emptied Mind,  in fact  , it is the core of both systems. The main difference is that Taoism knows well that to attain such an emptied Mind directly from people's existing status ( entangled in a weak  physical body  with various stresses and drives ; dominated by an overwhelming analytic mind..etc)  is nearly impossible . So better adopt an indirect  way of  initializing qi from jing first , then from qi    lets people grasp what an emptied Mind ( shen ) is .

 

Besides, once qi  is initialized and upgraded , lets it  settle the fluctuating minds is more easier  than asking the minds  to settle/ empty  itself as qi and mind gets yang  and yin  attract-to-each-other relationship  in between . 

 

 

 

Once a person is sick or injured, it is very difficult to still the mind.  So body must come first for most of the people, unless the seeker is young and healthy enough.

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