Scholar

Hands hurt after trying to feel chi

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They say that one way to feel chi is to point two fingers to the center of your hand and move it closer and far and if you few anything. 

I do feel some sort of energy when I do that, but after a few times, my hand get hurt. Feels a little like an 1st burn, can anyone explain this? Keep in mind that I dont touch my hand at all.

 

 

I practice zhan zuang and the 8 brocades if anyone is curious

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34 minutes ago, Scholar said:

They say that one way to feel chi is to point two fingers to the center of your hand and move it closer and far and if you few anything. 

I do feel some sort of energy when I do that, but after a few times, my hand get hurt. Feels a little like an 1st burn, can anyone explain this? Keep in mind that I dont touch my hand at all.

 

 

I practice zhan zuang and the 8 brocades if anyone is curious


It may very well be an organic problem, or a failure to move the chi. Instead of letting it stagnate, move it around with your mind. 

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Chi can create an enormous variety of sensations. Most common forms of discomfort for me, is if i'm around people who are feeling anxiety, anger or are simply bleeding crappy chi. 

 

In terms of the pain your feeling....not sure....could be some minor chi sickness from the exertion. In gradually developing your sensitivity, over years of practice....your clarity on these matters will grow. 

 

Zhan Zhuang is a great practice. Congrats. 

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1 hour ago, Scholar said:

Feels a little like an 1st burn, can anyone explain this?

 

You are emitting a lot of chi from your fingers as heat.

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12 hours ago, Scholar said:

can anyone explain this?


your strong mental focus (further focused and directed by the fingers) is stimulating the nerves in your hand.

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D170244A-C41E-45B9-9E6F-9E407A55AC96.jpeg.95ac62c1db7fe42279c9d65d131f5781.jpeg

This hand form is sometimes used to do the kind of exercise OP mentions. It’s not an easy form to do right but with practice it can be very useful as a striking hand in fighting and useful for massage, acupressure, qi projection (i’ve been told) or as a classic pantomime of a handgun :)

It has both soft and hard aspects, it is slightly rounded, quite fast and very strong.

 

I cant speak to what you felt OP nor why, but i can repeat what has been said to me and others, both on here and IRL, repeatedly when it comes to these sensitivity exercises: 


Be gentle and very very relaxed.

Start out slow.

Don't do too much or too often. Start at 5 minutes a day in the beginning.

Stop if you feel discomfort or pain, wait a day and try again and most importantly do not worry or push these things.

Just feel. If nothing happens, this is also a result. Try again tomorrow!

 

Hope it helps a little :)

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2 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Be gentle and very very relaxed.


Keep focus soft and diffuse - and be only partially interested in what’s going on.

 

Also - sensations or sensitivity to this stuff is both fraught with delusion - and not particularly useful at the early stage anyway.

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17 minutes ago, freeform said:

Also - sensations or sensitivity to this stuff is both fraught with delusion - and not particularly useful at the early stage anyway.

A double edged sword — how does one train without feeling, how can one feel without trying. The problem is with trying too hard, or getting caught up in sensations.

 

for the OP - imho, better than sword finger, is to generate what we call a taiji ball (energetic ball) between your palms — like you are holding a basketball or soccer ball between your palms, with the center of Palms aligned. Breath in, expand that ball, exhale, contract that  ball. 
 

you have to be very soft in your movement and gentle in your intention. After a while you will feel the two palms push apart when squeezing the ball (like two like piles of a magnet push apart when brought too close). And when you expand you’ll feel a magnetic attraction between your palms (like pulling apart two like poles of a magnet).

 

 

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1 hour ago, dwai said:

A double edged sword — how does one train without feeling


Train with listening instead :)

 

Developing the skill to ‘listen’ is a pretty important one...

 

There’s a process to developing it - but even then you will have lots of sensations and experiences before your listening skill matures.

 

(I’m saying ‘you’, but I’m talking generally - I’m sure you have Ting by now, Dwai)

 

Most of my teachers made a point to discourage attaching any meaning, importance or significance to what you’re feeling on the Qi level in the early stages (early - meaning the first 5 to 10yrs of dedicated daily practice).

 

The reason is: experiencing the ‘8 touches of Qi’ is not a direct experience of Qi - it is the experience of your body’s reaction to Qi... 

 

That might seem like pointless semantics - but it’s important - because you might feel a warmth travel up your spine and think that Yang Qi is moving through the governing vessel - but what may actually be happening is your Nei Qi has touched some nerve that sends a warm sensation up the back... or it’s a tiny bit of Qi moving and you’re experiencing resistance that manifests as heat... but either way you’d be making an error in thinking Yang Qi is moving up the spine - and you might base further training on this error in judgement and cause yourself issues down the line.

 

When training with an advanced Neigong teacher you know you felt Qi because your body will react very strongly - with spasms, shaking, vibrating or other weirder experiences... but you won’t have the skill and sensitivity to know what actually happened on the level of Qi until much later... usually not until you can see it

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1 minute ago, freeform said:


Train with listening instead :)

 

Developing the skill to ‘listen’ is a pretty important one...

 

There’s a process to developing it - but even then you will have lots of sensations and experiences before your listening skill matures.

 

(I’m saying ‘you’, but I’m talking generally - I’m sure you have Ting by now, Dwai)

 

Most of my teachers made a point to discourage attaching any meaning, importance or significance to what you’re feeling on the Qi level in the early stages (early - meaning the first 5 to 10yrs of dedicated daily practice).

 

The reason is: experiencing the ‘8 touches of Qi’ is not a direct experience of Qi - it is the experience of your body’s reaction to Qi... 

 

That might seem like pointless semantics - but it’s important - because you might feel a warmth travel up your spine and think that Yang Qi is moving through the governing vessel - but what may actually be happening is your Nei Qi has touched some nerve that sends a warm sensation up the back... or it’s a tiny bit of Qi moving and you’re experiencing resistance that manifests as heat... but either way you’d be making an error in thinking Yang Qi is moving up the spine - and you might base further training on this error in judgement and cause yourself issues down the line.

 

When training with an advanced Neigong teacher you know you felt Qi because your body will react very strongly - with spasms, shaking, vibrating or other weirder experiences... but you won’t have the skill and sensitivity to know what actually happened on the level of Qi until much later... usually not until you can see it

Ting is feeling (There isn’t any difference between feeling and listening) :) 


To listen is to know. To feel is to listen (or see or hear...it manifests in many ways) 

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4 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

D170244A-C41E-45B9-9E6F-9E407A55AC96.jpeg.95ac62c1db7fe42279c9d65d131f5781.jpeg

 

 

I was taught in Medical Qigong to use the two fingers for yang transmission and the pinky for yin transmission.   I can only say that in practicing it, people have said there is a noticeable difference on the receiving end.

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

for the OP - imho, better than sword finger, is to generate what we call a taiji ball (energetic ball) between your palms — like you are holding a basketball or soccer ball between your palms, with the center of Palms aligned. Breath in, expand that ball, exhale, contract that  ball. 
 

you have to be very soft in your movement and gentle in your intention. After a while you will feel the two palms push apart when squeezing the ball (like two like piles of a magnet push apart when brought too close). And when you expand you’ll feel a magnetic attraction between your palms (like pulling apart two like poles of a magnet).

 

I think the Qi ball is a great practice cuz you regulate breath with it...  But there is room to explore various Qi ideas and the sword hands is a good experiment.  I usually recommend moving the sword fingers in a very slow circle.   What becomes interesting is that the focus of the eyes can have an intention without realizing you are giving intent.   I think that is part of being soft too.

 

 

21 minutes ago, freeform said:

The reason is: experiencing the ‘8 touches of Qi’ is not a direct experience of Qi - it is the experience of your body’s reaction to Qi... 

 

Yes, the body and mind will translate the energy experience.  For beginner, some concepts are hard to grasp and even harder to apply... but you made some good points in the thread I agree with.  

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1 hour ago, dawei said:

 

I think the Qi ball is a great practice cuz you regulate breath with it...  But there is room to explore various Qi ideas and the sword hands is a good experiment.  I usually recommend moving the sword fingers in a very slow circle.   What becomes interesting is that the focus of the eyes can have an intention without realizing you are giving intent.   I think that is part of being soft too.

In our system it stems from that Qi ball. The Qi ball can be condensed, made into various shapes and given different characteristics (jin). It can be used as a blunt instrument or a sharp cutting tool.
 

Maybe for beginners,  sword finger is a bit harder. 

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4 hours ago, dwai said:

In our system it stems from that Qi ball. The Qi ball can be condensed, made into various shapes and given different characteristics (jin). It can be used as a blunt instrument or a sharp cutting tool.
 

Maybe for beginners,  sword finger is a bit harder. 

 

On an airplane, I taught a person sitting next to me, and who was reading a book on energy... how to do the sword hands while we were flying.    Then I had her hand replaced with my hand moving in a circle... then I had her just imagine a hand moving in a circle...  She could still feel it.    I had never done that before or since but in the moment, thought it was something to try.   

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11 hours ago, dwai said:

Ting is feeling (There isn’t any difference between feeling and listening) :) 


To listen is to know. To feel is to listen (or see or hear...it manifests in many ways) 


Ting in the system I train in is quite different. I’ve explained it to a couple of people on the forum and if they choose to they’ll be able to attest to both the difference and the depth and power of working in this way...

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15 hours ago, freeform said:


Ting in the system I train in is quite different. I’ve explained it to a couple of people on the forum and if they choose to they’ll be able to attest to both the difference and the depth and power of working in this way...

What I’m suggesting is ting is a natural extension of listening. But it was interesting to learn that your system trains ting differently. In the system I’ve learnt, ting is developed by working with other people in push hands. 

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This talk of Ting and what systems teach and what we have each experienced makes me think back to when I did Medical Qigong Clinicals.   The group was a rather diverse set of folks: Many were acupunturist but one was a Reiki master, another deeply into yoga, and I was the only one with a Qigong background.  I might guess that this would surprise folks, it surprised me.

 

But here is what I observed and experience: all of the practitioners had a sense of energy in a different way, like the five senses and then the sixth sense of each would also kick in.  It taught me a great lesson that we should not try to confine what it means to feel, sense, listen, know, or experience energy.   Each person is likely, like a destiny, draw to finding a system that fits their energy sensing.

 

I will say, working with others who experienced energy differently than me made me really open further that another's system should be valued if it works for them.   Some see colors; some see form; some feel the movement; some know there is something there.  We would rotate people through five patients and then compare notes...  In the end, we almost always agreed on sensing something specific.   It was the dark energy (not sure a good word for it) that a few of us encountered... like one cancer patient was radiant in her outlook to overcome it while another was accepting doom.   One patient was rather mild but caught me off-guard with something very defensive... well, it was attacking in response to my presence.   As this was my second Medical Qigong training and it was very formal with step by step, I realized there is not a formal plan with this one.  I went back to my previous system to deal with it.   This is all so long ago and left behind but it was a great foundation that systems different and have value.

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3 hours ago, dawei said:

This talk of Ting and what systems teach and what we have each experienced makes me think back to when I did Medical Qigong Clinicals.   The group was a rather diverse set of folks: Many were acupunturist but one was a Reiki master, another deeply into yoga, and I was the only one with a Qigong background.  I might guess that this would surprise folks, it surprised me.

 

But here is what I observed and experience: all of the practitioners had a sense of energy in a different way, like the five senses and then the sixth sense of each would also kick in.  It taught me a great lesson that we should not try to confine what it means to feel, sense, listen, know, or experience energy.   Each person is likely, like a destiny, draw to finding a system that fits their energy sensing.

 

I will say, working with others who experienced energy differently than me made me really open further that another's system should be valued if it works for them.   Some see colors; some see form; some feel the movement; some know there is something there.  We would rotate people through five patients and then compare notes...  In the end, we almost always agreed on sensing something specific.   It was the dark energy (not sure a good word for it) that a few of us encountered... like one cancer patient was radiant in her outlook to overcome it while another was accepting doom.   One patient was rather mild but caught me off-guard with something very defensive... well, it was attacking in response to my presence.   As this was my second Medical Qigong training and it was very formal with step by step, I realized there is not a formal plan with this one.  I went back to my previous system to deal with it.   This is all so long ago and left behind but it was a great foundation that systems different and have value.

Over the summer, my brothers and I were outdoors practicing taiji and meditation. We got started talking about nonduality, and one of them looked like he was going to collapse with pain in his chest. 
 

it was the middle of a big park so it was going to be a while If we called an ambulance. 

 

So the remaining three of us started working on him. We used the taiji hook to triangulate the problem area,  and started pulling what each of saw/sensed or felt as a dark blob of energy from there. 
 

After a few attempts it started trying to escape. It was looking to find a way to get out of his system and eventually it exited.  

 

We called for our teacher and he created a vortex into which it fell and disappeared.

 

The interesting thing is, just as you mentioned, each of of us perceived it in a different way. Two of us saw it as a black blob, while another felt it like a staticky, icky energy!

 

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6 hours ago, dawei said:

all of the practitioners had a sense of energy in a different way


Yes exactly. We tend to experience Qi one step removed... our body/mind will interpret some subtle sense of Qi in various ways - from thoughts to feelings to visions -even tastes.

 

However there is a stage of development (specific training to achieve this skill) where you can perceive Qi directly - by seeing it very objectively and specifically. You can tune to different ‘depths’ and see Qi in all its various processes.
 

When I experienced a taste of this skill (I haven’t worked to develop it though) - I could see Qi flowing (or not) in people and I could tune into the different levels and depths by using Ting... I could even ‘zoom in’ on Qi itself and see what it is and how it manifests in the moment. Quite amazing and a little overwhelming as I had no prior reference point apart from the standard meridian charts everyone has seen (I can say that the reality is a lot more complex and multilayered than the commonly taught meridian pathways).


One of my teachers used this skill to diagnose patients before treatment. He’d be able to give very specific in-depth diagnosis down to the tiniest detail without even taking a pulse.

 

In fact this skill was the preliminary skill before he taught Qi projection for healing. He was quite strict in that for a healer, the perception of Qi ‘one step removed’ is never to be trusted. Especially when the health and well-being of another person is in your hands.

 

8 hours ago, dwai said:

it was interesting to learn that your system trains ting differently. In the system I’ve learnt, ting is developed by working with other people in push hands. 


Yeah - there are different levels and applications to Ting... The Ting of Taiji and the Ting of Neigong have a crossover, but in Neigong the Ting skill is taken to a much deeper level. (Taiji takes Song to a much deeper level though)

Edited by freeform
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Hey Freeform,

 

Thanks. This “one step removed” concept re: energetic reading sounds very interesting, and advanced.

 

Because energetic reading is free already, anyone can connect to anything. Just think or set your intent to something, like the sun or a potted plant, and you will align your energy with the source. Done. Like reading your post, I align with your energy and I feel certain things. If I keep reading you for a while, my meridians might start to open in specific ways that mirror your own energetic structure, and make me feel certain emotions too. For you, you seem to be happy guy, so I often feel happy reading you. So aligning yourself with people energetically, you imprint yourself with their qualities.

 

So I guess you are saying that these things that we feel energetically when connecting to each other is one-step-removed then ? So what does it mean to go direct ? I think you’re talking about using your third eye and zooming in on a person energetically ? 
 

I wonder how you can do this objectively, because you’re still the one doing the viewing right ? How can what you view be independent of the viewer ? That’s the limit I see of energetic reading. Some say that a person can only see as high as they have reached spiritually - so they basically can only see their level in others. So you would basically need to be peerless to have an authoritative energetic reading that is quite “objective”. Although I guess you’re perhaps not talking about spiritual development of a person and only meridians/energy.


Peace,

Seb

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1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

So I guess you are saying that these things that we feel energetically when connecting to each other is one-step-removed then ?


:)


You always have a great way of penetrating deeper into a subject.

 

Yes - you can think of someone’s Qi to be a vibration in a tuning fork... one way to perceive this vibration is to notice how your own tuning fork is attuning to that of the other person.

 

However - unlike tuning forks you can buy, we, as tuning forks haven’t been perfectly tuned and standardised. Our tuning fork is covered in all sorts of detritus that’s been accumulated over your lifetime (and lifetimes before)...

 

So although you do get a signal back - the signal is full of distortion that it is not accurate at all - at least not accurate enough to do any powerful medical treatments. Secondly even when you read your own tuning fork, you’re perceiving it from the perspective of the self - so it also has all those distortions added to the already inaccurate reading.

 

Regarding direct perception. Using the tuning fork metaphor - you measure the signal directly from another’s tuning fork - and not from the tone reflected in your tuning fork. The apparatus of this measurement is a certain aspect of your ‘third eye’ that has been developed to a point where it no longer references the self...

 

The further development of this skill includes various attainments such as the various levels of  ‘opening of the wisdom eye’... where eventually you’re able to perceive the complete cause and effect chain leading to the moment of the perception.
 

So with a person you could get an immediate insight into what’s causing some outcome in that person - including all the details within their life path (Ming) - from this life and all others...

 

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Direct perception is a very interesting concept — in order to perceive one has to use the mind. If the mind is involved it is no longer direct. Mind and five senses interplay — that’s why Qi is felt as different things by different people.

 

As someone who has synesthesia, the role of the mind and how it interprets and interplays with the five senses is only too clear to me :) 


There is another “direct cognition” or “knowing”, which is what ting to me is — but that is simply the result of experience (to call it intuition would be incorrect but somewhat close — but the words in the English language aren’t sufficient to express many eastern ideas).  It transcends time and space — simply knowing the oneness with another ‘person’ one can know what’s going on at an energetic or even a mental level. 

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On 12/25/2019 at 1:54 PM, Scholar said:

They say that one way to feel chi is to point two fingers to the center of your hand and move it closer and far and if you few anything. 

I do feel some sort of energy when I do that, but after a few times, my hand get hurt. Feels a little like an 1st burn, can anyone explain this? Keep in mind that I dont touch my hand at all.

 

 

I practice zhan zuang and the 8 brocades if anyone is curious

 

I find that the biggest obstacle to developing a relationship with Qi is expectation. We bring so much baggage to the equation - our personal bias, our interpretation of literature and scripture, our hopes, the ideas of others... All of this drowns out the subtle whisper of direct experience. Any pain usually comes from excessive effort, from forcing. Connecting with the flow of Qi is like listening to silence. Sounds get our attention easily, we’re used to that type of focus. We’re not used to connecting to silence, it’s a different kind of focus. The best advice I can give to anyone struggling with a connection to Qi is to be quiet, open, and leave all preconceptions and expectations behind. If you have the good fortune to connect with a credible teacher, trust the practice and try to lessen dependence on the conceptual mind.

Good luck!

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52 minutes ago, dwai said:

There is another “direct cognition” or “knowing”, which is what ting to me is


Yes... although in certain traditions there are ways to further tune this knowing to an aspect of ‘the third eye’... You use the Shen Ming (or the light of the original spirit) that comes about from entering a certain ‘samadhi’ state to create this skill. It is beyond the ‘local’ mind - and accessing a kind of ‘causal’ knowing.

 

Ting, in the tradition I’m in is different and is developed differently - it’s closer to the process of absorbing awareness into an object (until the subject-object duality disappears) - but it’s functionally different for the above.

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1 hour ago, freeform said:

The apparatus of this measurement is a certain aspect of your ‘third eye’ that has been developed to a point where it no longer references the self...


Thanks. So if I’m following correctly what you said, at that point you’re looking directly at energy itself, and not someone’s energy, or how someone’s energy is bouncing off yours -  it’s undifferentiated at that stage. Because if you individualize energies with ego/self, you lose the union with the original spirit that you are using for accurate sensing (which is better than rusty tuning forks).

 

It’s interesting you still used the word “measure” and I know very advanced Masters that sort of size you energetically and spiritually.  I guess that would come after the energetic snapshot, because measuring and sizing are always an interpretation of energy and require mental ability.
 

So is it a bit like diving really deep in the ocean with a scuba tank, seeing a pattern or formation of sea shells at the bottom, and then coming back to shore, to your senses, and the world, and then speaking about what you saw ? Or could you reach a point where you do it all at the same time.... haha ? 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, freeform said:


Yes... although in certain traditions there are ways to further tune this knowing to an aspect of ‘the third eye’... You use the Shen Ming (or the light of the original spirit) that comes about from entering a certain ‘samadhi’ state to create this skill. It is beyond the ‘local’ mind - and accessing a kind of ‘causal’ knowing.

 

Ting, in the tradition I’m in is different and is developed differently - it’s closer to the process of absorbing awareness into an object (until the subject-object duality disappears) - but it’s functionally different for the above.

Subject object duality has to disappear in order to realize the oneness of all being. :) 

 

And once we are well settled in the fact that all being is one, we can simply let go of artificial separation of subject and object. 

 

What I’m referring to seems to be the same thing you’re describing. 

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