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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

But in the early stages, the transformation can feel very pleasurable...

 

This is true for younger yogis and yoginis who are instructed and initiated on the Path of Great Bliss of the Lower Gates (Tib. Oggo Dechen Lam), one of 3 main Yogas (tantric paths) associated with the Nyingma school, and forms a major part of the Dzogrim (Completion) stage of Highest Yoga Tantra. In some traditions, like the Yuthok Nyingthig for example, there are 2 methods by which to access Highest Yoga Tantra: One is by way of receiving empowerments in the Path of Desire (Karmamudra), designated for non-celibates, and the other is by way of initiation into the Path of Liberation (Mahamudra), encouraged for celibates and older practitioners with lowered libidos and those with tainted and/or defective channels. 

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Another fundamental theory of Tantric practice is that of transformation. Negative mental factors such as desire, hatred, greed, pride are not outright rejected as in non Tantric Buddhism, but are used as part of the path. As noted by French Indologist Madeleine Biardeau, tantric doctrine is "an attempt to place kama, desire, in every meaning of the word, in the service of liberation."[38] This view is outlined in the following quote from the Hevajra tantra:

Those things by which evil men are bound, others turn into means and gain thereby release from the bonds of existence. By passion the world is bound, by passion too it is released, but by heretical Buddhists this practice of reversals is not known.[39]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrayana

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"Because the Vajrayana experiences the universe as a play of energy, it has no reason to reject any experience. All expressions of energy, even seemingly negative ones, are grist to it's mill. If you see things in terms of fixed entities, then you have to reject certain experiences. If you see the world as energy, then at worst you will see energy temporarily locked into limiting or negative patterns. However, you will also see that energy as a resource, a potential which can be liberated.  For the car owner, a wrecked car is useless, something to be towed away. For the scrap dealer it is a resource. It's raw materials can be melted down to make brand new cars.

 

For this reason, the Vajrayana works with negative emotions in different ways from the Sutrayana.  The Hinayana approach is to use mindfulness to hold feelings of cravings and hatred at arm's length. The Vajrayana, however, accepts these feelings as expressions of Reality just like any other, and as powerful energies to be transmuted.  It is because the Tantra rejoices in these energies that it has often been misunderstood. Some people have criticized it as a mere license to indulge, others have used it as a mere license to indulge! We can see here why Tantric training has to be built on experience of the other two yanas. The Tantric practitioner has to have enough insight and self-discipline to play with fire - to ride the most raw and powerful energies of the human psyche on the road to liberation." - A Guide to the Deities of the Tantra - Vessantara

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I think saying that in Tantric practices you ‘work with negative emotion’ is confusing things... You don’t work with the emotions, you work with the ‘substance’ underlying the emotion - which is Qi.

 

On the level of Qi there is no emotionality - there’s just Qi - it’s sort of mechanical. The aim is equanimity - not indulging in emotionality... but also not trying to ignore emotionality... and dealing with it (and many other mental qualities and aspects of consciousness) on the ‘level’ of Qi.

 

So for example in Daoist practice (which is also a Tantric path) what you experience as sadness has an energetic/Qi counterpart... when instead of focusing on the sadness, you engage at the level of Qi, you just experience a movement inwards - a sort of contraction/drawing in.

 

In this way you don’t ignore what’s clearly taking place, but you don’t indulge in experiencing emotionality...

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, freeform said:

I think saying that in Tantric practices you ‘work with negative emotion’ is confusing things... You don’t work with the emotions, you work with the ‘substance’ underlying the emotion - which is Qi.

 

On the level of Qi there is no emotionality - there’s just Qi - it’s sort of mechanical. The aim is equanimity - not indulging in emotionality... but also not trying to ignore emotionality... and dealing with it (and many other mental qualities and aspects of consciousness) on the ‘level’ of Qi.

 

So for example in Daoist practice (which is also a Tantric path) what you experience as sadness has an energetic/Qi counterpart... when instead of focusing on the sadness, you engage at the level of Qi, you just experience a movement inwards - a sort of contraction/drawing in.

 

In this way you don’t ignore what’s clearly taking place, but you don’t indulge in experiencing emotionality...

Tantra came from India and was neither Buddhist, Bon, nor Daoist.

 

All these that followed are different.

 

Buddhism and Bon due to Talopa who was taught by female Tantrics and his student Naropa of the six yogas of Naropa.

 

The Buddhists saw it was good and added it into their ways as did the Bon.

 

Where the taoists come in is a mystery how did it come to pass taoists make any claim to Tantra?

 

Furthermore When Talopa was taught and initiated into Tantra it was by females.

 

Tantra was originally a female Yogini System of practice. Later co-opted by men it appears once it took root in Tibet. 

Edited by Pilgrim
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There has also been mentioned Sex in this thread in conjunction with Tantra.

 

Did you know there are 3 levels of consort practice?

 

1st most crude less advanced practitioner level is between a male and a female.

 

2nd level is by meditative means where a consort is visualized and actualized.

 

3rd highest level is when the true consort arrives on her own by advancement in the practice of Tummo.

 

This also happens in Kriya at the higher levels. The automatic arrival of the consort.

 

In the automatic way there is no human body pairing, visualization nor sexual thought. The consort arrives when Shiva and Shakti are becoming in union within.

 

When this happens you may rest assured that the notion of mechanical energy with no living emotive quality or living quality is wiped out.

 

Even before the consort arrives through the practice of tummo or similar practices all such intellectual and lesser perceptions are replaced with direct knowing.

 

I know now some people have their minds very made up about how things are and there is no changing that nor am I attempting to.

 

You perceive what you do and that is good.

 

I will not argue such things rather let this post serve to those whose minds are not already closed to the idea of Tantra and the practice of tummo so they may research and decide for themselves.

 

There are active schools and lamas that do teach these things without all the controversy that surrounds others.

 

Ligmincha with TWR is one such place people may learn from.

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6 hours ago, freeform said:

I think saying that in Tantric practices you ‘work with negative emotion’ is confusing things... You don’t work with the emotions, you work with the ‘substance’ underlying the emotion - which is Qi.

 

The experience of the "negative emotion" is the doorway - an opportunity. And this, imo, is what is being referred to when the phrase "working with negative emotions" is used. And in this, again imo, it is an appropriate and clear phrase. 

 

6 hours ago, freeform said:

 

On the level of Qi there is no emotionality - there’s just Qi - it’s sort of mechanical. The aim is equanimity - not indulging in emotionality... but also not trying to ignore emotionality... and dealing with it (and many other mental qualities and aspects of consciousness) on the ‘level’ of Qi.

 

So for example in Daoist practice (which is also a Tantric path) what you experience as sadness has an energetic/Qi counterpart... when instead of focusing on the sadness, you engage at the level of Qi, you just experience a movement inwards - a sort of contraction/drawing in.

 

In this way you don’t ignore what’s clearly taking place, but you don’t indulge in experiencing emotionality...

 

This seems kinda circular to me.

 

Are you perhaps speaking towards experiencing the emotion, letting the words fall away, and then experiencing only the energetic essence?

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6 hours ago, freeform said:

On the level of Qi there is no emotionality

 

Okay I have just been practising, as follows.   First I am deeply meditative and have scanned and embodied the physical body.

Next, I gently return to a painful memory, standing in front of my parents ... what am I feeling.

Just gently, not too much ... and the feeling comes, I am familiar with it ... but I "take an interest" in it.  I don't want to remember it the way I always remembered it.   I am interested in it, for the first time, what is it actually ?   Some emotions are difficult to describe, crawling, scrapping, racking, difficult to describe.

Nevertheless they are there.

They are, what they are.

Then I gently feel the energy of it (qi), the vibrational pattern.  I rest, and I let it arise and take interest in it.  I allow it.

Often it is faint, and on a small part of the body, (like the shoulder) ... so I try to gently bring it open, gently stretching it over larger area of the body, either by directly pulling the energy, or simply by scanning a neighbouring area to activate it.   Opening the energy, and going in to it, resting inside it.

Now it is more open.

Then I merge within it, I become one with it, and gently merge into it, dissolving into it, so that I am it, and it is me, through the whole body, slowly slowly I rest as it.   It can resist, it can flow, it can resolve, many things.   But I am one with it, as it.

And the rain falls, and the ground is wet.

 

Throughout there may be many words (thoughts) and memories associated with these things, but I release them.

 

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15 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Okay I have just been practising, as follows.   First I am deeply meditative and have scanned and embodied the physical body.

Next, I gently return to a painful memory, standing in front of my parents ... what am I feeling.

Just gently, not too much ... and the feeling comes, I am familiar with it ... but I "take an interest" in it.  I don't want to remember it the way I always remembered it.   I am interested in it, for the first time, what is it actually ?   Some emotions are difficult to describe, crawling, scrapping, racking, difficult to describe.

Nevertheless they are there.

They are, what they are.

Then I gently feel the energy of it (qi), the vibrational pattern.  I rest, and I let it arise and take interest in it.  I allow it.

Often it is faint, and on a small part of the body, (like the shoulder) ... so I try to gently bring it open, gently stretching it over larger area of the body, either by directly pulling the energy, or simply by scanning a neighbouring area to activate it.   Opening the energy, and going in to it, resting inside it.

Now it is more open.

Then I merge within it, I become one with it, and gently merge into it, dissolving into it, so that I am it, and it is me, through the whole body, slowly slowly I rest as it.   It can resist, it can flow, it can resolve, many things.   But I am one with it, as it.

And the rain falls, and the ground is wet.

 

Throughout there may be many words (thoughts) and memories associated with these things, but I release them.

 

This is very good.

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The Daoist training I’ve been through emphasises not delving into emotions at the level of emotions.

 

To get here one must have achieved the skill of sinking the mind and sinking the Qi. (Takes a while!)

 

Once these qualities are present, it’s pretty simple - you have no idea what it is that you’re releasing... you’d for example sense a constricted pattern of Qi literally travel through your body and come out of your extremities...

 

sometimes it’s the pattern of trauma, sometimes it’s a pathogen, sometimes it’s something physical - like one practitioner whose fillings started popping out during this phase of training - another had a piece of shrapnel pop out of his leg...

 

The key in my particular training has always been 1) not focusing on a specific trauma and 2) not trying to remember, analyse, re-experience or work with it in any conscious way. Just do the training and things dislodge and leave the system.

 

What this can sometimes look like during training is like an emotional release - you’ll see people laughing or crying or roaring - but if they’re asked what’s happening or what they’re crying about, they’ll have no idea - there won’t be any conscious perceptions of emotions - just the expression... of course this is generally only in the early part of the training... later it’s a lot more subtle - like the constricted pattern leaving example above.

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7 minutes ago, freeform said:

The key in my particular training has always been 1) not focusing on a specific trauma and 2) not trying to remember, analyse, re-experience or work with it in any conscious way. Just do the training and things dislodge and leave the system.

 

Thank you for sharing the practices and understanding of your lineage. 

 

7 minutes ago, freeform said:

What this can sometimes look like during training is like an emotional release - you’ll see people laughing or crying or roaring - but if they’re asked what’s happening or what they’re crying about, they’ll have no idea - there won’t be any conscious perceptions of emotions - just the expression... of course this is generally only in the early part of the training... later it’s a lot more subtle - like the constricted pattern leaving example above.

 

This brought to mind outer ruschen.

 

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2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

This brought to mind outer ruschen.

 

What’s ruschen?

 

There are many Daoist (and non Daoist) systems that use this process (known as Zifa gong - sometimes as ‘spontaneous movement’)... it’s similar to Kriya I believe?

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There is more than one way to approach things :)  — this is wrt ahem...Daoist “Tantra”. While I don’t agree that Daoist path is tantric par se, there are many overlaps between the Daoist alchemical path (specifically nei Dan) and classical Hindu tantric path. I learnt and practiced Tamil Siddhar Yoga for a while, and have had an almost 2 decade long practice in Daoist meditation practices. I found a lot of overlaps.

 

wrt the OP, there is something to be the said about “pleasure-oriented” vs “misery-oriented”. I personally find the pleasure oriented personalities can miss the point, so to speak. Especially when there is an explosion of sexual energies which leads one to spend hours (sometimes better part of a day) in a state which I can only express as orgasmic. Only it is like an orgasm x 1000,000 (or more). It is hard to explain in words :) 

 

A less discriminative practitioner might start seeking that experience. But if transmuted properly, it can fuel the growth by quantum leaps and bounds. Imho, the key is whether the individual is grounded in and as pure awareness (as opposed to personality/mental identities).

 

The “misery” way is an excellent way to enter the spiritual path, but it can’t be a case of crushing, constant misery. There needs to be sufficient suffering for an individual to want to seek its cessation (e.g., the Buddha).

 

Usually, pleasure seekers can’t understand this, unless they are addicts caught in an ever deepening spiral of their habit.

 

in my experience and opinion informed therefrom, most pleasure seekers lack the maturity to really break through to what I consider enlightenment. 

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Accordng to this account there are three approaches to dealing with emotions and other stuff that might be eschewed/forbidden in different paths:

 

Quote
In Buddhist thought, such as in The Peacock's Neutralizing of Poisons by Dharmarakshita, the ability of the Peacock to roam freely in the Forest of Poisons is seen as symbolic of the power of the enlightened soul to move through the world unharmed by the poisonous tree of the five afflictions: attachment, anger, delusion, envy and conceitedness.

 

To illustrate the differences taught in the various yanas [i.e., paths], Dudjom Rinpoche always used to recount the story of the poisonous plant. The plant is a symbol for emotional defilements or negativity.

 

A group of people discover that a poisonous plant is growing in their backyard. They begin to panic, as they recognize that this is very dangerous. So they try to cut down the plant. This is the approach of renunciation, which is taught in Hinayana as the method to eradicate the ego and the negative emotions.

 

Another group of people arrive, and, realizing that the plant is dangerous, but that simply cutting it will not be sufficient since its roots remain to sprout anew, they throw hot ash or boiling water over the roots to prevent the plant from ever growing again. This is the approach of the Mahayana, which applies the realization of emptiness as the antidote of ignorance, the root of ego and negativity.

 

The next group of people to appear on the scene are the doctors, and when they see this poison they are not alarmed; on the contrary, they are very pleased, since they have been looking for this particular poison. They know how to transform the poison into medicine rather than destroying it. This is the tantric approach of the Vajrayana, which does not abandon the negative emotions, but through the power of transformation uses their energy as a vehicle to bring realization.

See if you can map your path/personal approach to this : )

 

Quote lifted from here: http://www.hominf.org/peacock/peaintr.htm

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1 hour ago, freeform said:

in my particular training

 

Can you specify what training you undertook ?

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36 minutes ago, dwai said:

pleasure seekers

There is a difference between pleasure oriented and pleasure seeking you have blended and confused this in your reply.

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5 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Can you specify what training you undertook ?

 

You mean what lineage?

 

My main influence is from Quanzhen Daoism (Mostly Longmen branch) but also some training from the Shanqing line, Thai Forest Tradition Buddhism and a Burmese Theravada  line.

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14 minutes ago, freeform said:

My main influence is from Quanzhen Daoism (Mostly Longmen branch) but also some training from the Shanqing line, Thai Forest Tradition Buddhism and a Burmese Theravada  line.

Thanks, where could I easily find the teachings on sung and energy practice you described earlier ?

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2 hours ago, freeform said:

Once these qualities are present, it’s pretty simple - you have no idea what it is that you’re releasing...

 

The key in my particular training has always been 1) not focusing on a specific trauma and 2) not trying to remember, analyse, re-experience or work with it in any conscious way. Just do the training and things dislodge and leave the system.

 

This has been my experience with clearing things, too.  My perception is - if we're remembering or analyzing, it's not releasing...

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3 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

Did you know there are 3 levels of consort practice?

 

1st most crude less advanced practitioner level is between a male and a female.

 

Sign me up for less advanced please.

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31 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

This has been my experience with clearing things, too.  My perception is - if we're remembering or analyzing, it's not releasing...

 

I would agree, If you are truly residing in that energy, it is just like single point meditation. You shouldn't be lost in thoughts of the upset, if you are you are not residing.

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3 hours ago, dwai said:

I personally find the pleasure oriented personalities can miss the point, so to speak. Especially when there is an explosion of sexual energies which leads one to spend hours (sometimes better part of a day) in a state which I can only express as orgasmic. Only it is like an orgasm x 1000,000 (or more). It is hard to explain in words :) 

 

Looking back over this reply there is allot of stuff in here that must be explained from the perspective of experience with the India originated practice of Tummo.

 

What has been shared here in particular is certainly possible but the whole point of the practice is to use the pleasure to achieve one pointed absorption where all sensation of any kind ceases as the mind which is required to interpret pleasure ceases as well.

 

If someone is going into these orgasm X 1000,000 it is because they have lost control of the practice of Tummo and failed to return from the Jewel tip chakra and the secret chakra back to the field where the flame is held. The energy must be returned here and allowed to further feed the flame so the Bindu Drops will melt. 

 

I have purposely experimented with this error in application to see what was possible and it is most certainly a side track and a failure in the actual practice.

 

To do this is the very definition of pleasure seeking. 

 

To use pleasure as a vehicle of one pointed absorption requires not only a degree of development and maturity but familiarity with what follows as the basis for doing so in the first place.

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

A less discriminative practitioner might start seeking that experience. But if transmuted properly, it can fuel the growth by quantum leaps and bounds. Imho, the key is whether the individual is grounded in and as pure awareness (as opposed to personality/mental identities).

Exactly.  I do not care for the term grounded. I prefer abides or identifies in pure awareness to a greater degree not a perfect degree just more predominant than personality and mental identities because  its the very trans-formative nature of such practices that render the Personality / Mental Identities less and less as the place from which one resides over time.

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

n my experience and opinion informed therefrom, most pleasure seekers lack the maturity to really break through to what I consider enlightenment. 

 

Agreed pleasure seeking leads to failure of the practice.

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3 hours ago, rex said:

The next group of people to appear on the scene are the doctors, and when they see this poison they are not alarmed; on the contrary, they are very pleased, since they have been looking for this particular poison. They know how to transform the poison into medicine rather than destroying it. This is the tantric approach of the Vajrayana, which does not abandon the negative emotions, but through the power of transformation uses their energy as a vehicle to bring realization.

Excellent post and you have the very meaning of Tantra here. This maps well with me. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Pilgrim said:

Excellent post and you have the very meaning of Tantra here. This maps well with me. 

Cheers Pilgrim!

 

A fun but serious account of working with emotions, 09.55 to 16.10:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDGkZOaazL8

Edited by rex
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5 hours ago, freeform said:

 

What’s ruschen?

 

There are many Daoist (and non Daoist) systems that use this process (known as Zifa gong - sometimes as ‘spontaneous movement’)... it’s similar to Kriya I believe?

Not Kriya yoga but  yes as the word Kriya used as Oh don't mind him or her he or she is just having a Kriya refers to spontaneous movement as things are released even energy or when someone is acting in a releasing manner of some sort that might be quite disruptive to others. It is kind of a common phrase in India or so I have been told by people from India I know but not in the U.S. not sure of other locals.

 

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