After Enlightenment - Sainthood, Personality,

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

Could you rectify these seemingly opposing statements?

There's no need to. Those personality traits that need to be dropped in order to prevent the obscuration of the true nature will drop.. Though, I should rephrase that to say "All those personality traits and conditioning that obscure our true nature" . Others, which don't affect the obscurations may or may not drop.  

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by dwai

[ilumairen]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

There's no need to. Those personality traits that need to be dropped in order to prevent the obscuration of the true nature will drop..

 

One quote says, "certain personality traits will remain," and the other says, "dropping all personality". Those two phrases are contradictory, and you're dancing. It's a lovely dance dwai, but it's still a dance. 

 

1 minute ago, dwai said:

 

Though, I should rephrase that to say "All those personality traits and conditioning that obscure our true nature" . Others, which don't affect the obscurations may or may not drop.  

 

 

[dwai]

On this topic, I would strongly recommend reading this text in its entirety ( I did start a discussion on this topic in the Hindu sub-forum a while back) -- http://scriptures.ru/tripura1.htm

However, let me quote a specific section of the text here, that covers precisely the same questions being asked wrt. different natures of different sages, even though they are known to be enlightened. This is from this chapter -- http://scriptures.ru/tripura1.htm#CHAPTER XV

 

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9. "The goal is liberation. What is its nature? If one can be liberated while alive, still how is the course of his emancipated life regulated, if that is at all possible?

10. "There are sages who are active. What is the relation between the world of action and their pure conscious being?

11. "How can they engage in action while all the time they inhere in absolute consciousness? Such consciousness can be of only one kind, and liberation also can be only one in order to be effective.

12-17. "How then are these differences noticed in the lives of the jnanis? Some of them are active; some teach scriptures; some worship deities; some abstract themselves into samadhi; some lead an austere life and emaciate themselves; some give clear instructions to their disciples; some rule kingdom quite justly; some openly hold disputations with other schools of thought; some write down their teachings and experiences; others simulate ignorance; a few even reprehensible and loathsome actions; but all of them are famous as wise men in the world.

18. "How can there be such differences in their lives when there can be no difference in the state of liberation common to all? Or are there grades in knowledge and liberation?

19. "Kindly enlighten me on these points, because I am eager to learn the truth and submit to you as my sole Teacher."

 

As is the way with these texts, the teaching is in form of a story or parable.

Spoiler

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47. "There was one by name Kahoela, among those who were thus sunk. His son Ashtavakra, having heard of his father's fate, hastened to Janaka's court and challenged the debater skilled in fallacy. The masquerader was now defeated and straightaway condemned to the sea by the young avenger. Then Varuni threw off his mask in the court and restored back all the men formerly drowned in the sea. Kahoela's son was now puffed with pride and behaved offensively before the assembled court. The pandits were made to feel mortified before the youth.

51-52. "Just then, a female ascetic appeared in their midst, to whom the offended assembly looked for help. Encouraging them in their hopes, the charming maiden with matted locks and hermit's clothes was highly honoured by the king and she spoke in sweet and yet firm tones:

53. "'Oh child! Son of Kahoela! You are indeed very accomplished, for these Brahmins have been rescued by you after you defeated Varuni in debate.

54-56. "'I want to ask of you a short question, to which please give a straight answer, explicit and unreserved. What is that condition reaching which there will be all-round immortality: knowing which all doubts and uncertainties will disappear; and established in which all desires will vanish? If you have realised that unbounded state, please tell me directly.'

"Being approached by the ascetic, the son of Kahoela replied with confidence:

57-58. "'I know it. Listen to what I say. There is nothing in the world not known to me. I have studied all the sacred literature with great care. Therefore hear my answer.

59-63. "What you ask is the primal and efficient cause of the universe, being itself without beginning, middle or end, and uneffected by time and space. It is pure, unbroken, single Consciousness. The whole world is manifested in it like a city in a mirror. Such is that transcendental state. On realising it, one becomes immortal; there is no place for doubts and uncertainties, as there is no more reason for ignorance as at the sight of innumerable reflected images; and there will be no more room for desire, because transcendence is then experienced.

"It is also unknowable because there is no one to know it, besides itself.

"Ascetic! I have now told you the truth as contained in the Scriptures.'

64-71. "After Ashtavakra had finished, the hermit spoke again: 'Young sage! What you say, is rightly said and accepted by all. But I draw your attention to that part of your answer where you admitted its unknowability for want of a knower outside of consciousness; and also that its knowledge confers immortality and perfection. How are these two statements to be reconciled? Either admit that consciousness is unknowable, is not known to you, and thus conclude its non-existence; or say that it is, and that you know it — and therefore it is not unknowable.

"You evidently speak from secondhand knowledge, gathered from the scriptures. Clearly, you have not realised it and so your knowledge is not personal.

"Think now — your words amount to this — you have a personal knowledge of the images but not of the mirror. How can that be?

"Tell me now if you are not ashamed of this prevarication before King Janaka and his assembly.'

"Being thus reprimanded by the ascetic, he could not speak for some time because he felt mortified and ashamed; so he remained with bent head thinking it over.

72-73. "However, the Brahmin youth could not find any satisfactory answer to her question, so he submitted to her in great humility: 'O ascetic! Truly I cannot find the answer to your question. I submit to you as your disciple. Pray tell me how the two scriptural statements are to be reconciled. But I assure you that I have not told a deliberate lie, for I know that any merits a liar may have are counteracted by his lies so that he is condemned as unworthy.'

74. "Thus requested, the ascetic was pleased with Ashtavakra's sincerity and said to him in the hearing of the assembly.

75-84. "'Child, there are many who being ignorant of this sublime truth, live in a state of delusion. Dry polemics will not help one to Reality for it is well guarded on all sides. Of all the people now assembled here, no one has experienced Reality, except the king and myself. It is not a subject for discussion. The most brilliant logic can only approach it but never attain it. Although unaffected by logic coupled with a keen intellect, it can however be realised by service to one's Guru and the grace of God.

"O thou who art thyself the son of a Sage, listen to me carefully, for this is hard to understand even when hearing it explained. Hearing it a thousand times over will be useless unless one verifies the teachings by means of investigation into the Self with a concentrated mind. Just as a prince labours under a misapprehension that the string of pearls still clinging to his neck has been stolen away by another and is not persuaded to the contrary by mere words but only believes when he finds it around his neck by his own effort so also, O youth, however clever a man may be, he will never know his own self by the mere teaching of others unless he realises it for himself. Otherwise he can never realise the Self if his mind is turned outward.

85. "A lamp illumines all around but does not illumine itself or another light. It shines of itself without other sources of light. Things shine in sunlight without the necessity for any other kind of illumination. Because lights do not require to be illumined, do we say that they are not known or that they do not exist?

"Therefore, as it is thus with lights and things made aware by the conscious self, what doubt can you have regarding abstract consciousness, namely the Self?

"Lights and things being insentient, cannot be self-aware. Still, their existence or manifestation is under no doubt. That means they are self-luminous. Can you not similarly investigate with an inward mind in order to find out if the all-comprehending Self is conscious or not conscious?

"That Consciousness is absolute and transcends the three states (wakefulness, dream and slumber) and comprises all the universe making it manifest. Nothing can be apprehended without its light.

"Will anything be apparent to you, if there be no consciousness? Even to say that nothing is apparent to you (as in sleep) requires the light of consciousness. Is not your awareness of your unawareness (in sleep) due to consciousness?

"If you infer its eternal light, then closely investigate whether the light is of itself or not. Everybody falls in this investigation however learned and proficient he may be, because his mind is not bent inward but restlessly moves outward. As long as thoughts crop up, so long has the turning inward of the mind not been accomplished. As long as the mind is not inward, so long the Self cannot be realised. Turning inward means absence of desire. How can the mind be fixed within if desires are not given up?

"Therefore become dispassionate and inhere as the Self. Such inherence is spontaneous (no effort is needed to inhere as the Self). It is realised after thoughts are eliminated and investigation ceases. Recapitulate your state after you break off from it, and then will know all and the significance of its being knowable and unknowable at the same time. Thus realising the unknowable, one abides in immortality for ever and ever.

 

Not having yet understood what was taught, Ashtavakra continues his learning from King Janaka in this chapter -- 

 

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6-7. "On the departure of the holy ascetic from vision, Ashtavakra, the son of a sage, asked Janaka who was surrounded by a whole group of pandits, the full explanation of the ascetic's brief but recondite speech. I shall now tell you Janaka's reply, to which listen attentively.

8-9. "Ashtavakra asked, 'O King of Videha, I have not clearly understood the teaching of the ascetic because of its brevity. Please explain to me then, Lord of mercy, how I shall know the unknowable'.

Being thus asked, Janaka, as if surprised, replied:

10-13. "O thou son of a sage, listen to me! It is neither unknowable nor remains unknown at any moment. Tell me how even the ablest of Masters can guide one to something which always remains unknown. If a Guru can teach, it means that he knows what he says. This transcendental state is quite easy or may be well-nigh impossible according as one's mind is inward bent in peace or out-moving in restlessness. It cannot be taught if it always remains unknown.

14. "The fact that the Vedas point to it only indirectly as 'not this — not this' shows that the knowledge can be imparted to others

"Whatever you see becomes known by the very abstract intelligence.

Read the rest of this chapter if you find it of interest  

 

Now on the topic of different types of enlightened beings (http://scriptures.ru/tripura2.htm - 17th Chapter) 

 

If you have read through the chapters and got to the point where the different "personality" traits of some enlightened beings is discussed, you will have come to this --

 

NOTE: Vasana is the sanskrit term for personality trait or predilection/tendency towards certain behavior.

Spoiler

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79. "Of the three typical vasanas mentioned that one of action is the most potent and is said to be ignorance.

80-83. "Those are the best who are free from all of the vasanas, and particularly from the least trace of that of action. If free from the fault of mistrust of the teachings of the master, the vasana due to desire, which is not a very serious obstruction to realisation, is destroyed by the practice of contemplation. Dispassion need not be very marked in this case. Such people need not repeatedly engage in the study of Scriptures or the receiving of instructions from the Master, but straightaway pass into meditation and fall into samadhi, the consummation of the highest good. They live evermore as Jivanmuktas (emancipated even while alive).

84-86. "Sages with subtle and clear intellect have not considered it worth while to eradicate their desire etc., by forcing other thoughts to take their place because desires do not obstruct realisation. Therefore their desires continue to manifest even after realisation as before it. Neither are they tainted by such vasanas. They are said to be emancipated and diverse-minded. They are also reputed to be the best class of jnanis.

87-90. "Rama, he whose mind clings to the ignorance of the necessity of work cannot hope for realisation even if Siva offers to instruct him. Similarly also the person who has the fault of marked indifference to or misunderstanding of the teachings cannot attain. On the other hand, a man only slightly affected by these two vasanas, and much more so by desires or ambitions, will by repeated hearing of the holy truth, discussion of the same, and contemplation on it, surely reach the goal though only with considerable difficulty and after a long lapse of time. Such a sage's activities will be small because he is entirely engrossed in his efforts for realisation.

Note. — His activities will be confined to the indispensable necessities of life.

91. "A sage of this class has by his long practice and rigorous discipline controlled his mind so well that predispositions are totally eradicated and the mind is as if dead. He belongs to the middle class in the scheme of classification of sages and is said to be a sage without mind.

92-94. "The last class and the least among the sages are those whose practice and discipline are not perfect enough to destroy mental predispositions. Their minds are still active and the sages are said to be associated with their minds. They are barely jnanis and not jivanmuktas as are the other two classes. They appear to share the pleasures and pains of life like any other man and will continue to do so till the end of their lives. They will be emancipated after death.

95-96. "Prarabdha (past karma) is totally powerless with the middle class, who have destroyed their minds by continued practice.

"The mind is the soil in which the seed namely prarabdha sprouts (into pleasures and pains of life). If the soil is barren, the seed loses its sprouting power by long storage, and becomes useless.

97-103. "There are men in the world who can carefully attend to different functions at the same time and are famous as extraordinarily skilful; again some people attend to work as they are walking and conversing; while a teacher has an eye upon each student in the class-room and exercises control over them all; or you yourself knew Kartaviryarjuna, who wielded different weapons in his thousand hands and fought with you using all of them skilfully and simultaneously. In all these cases, a single mind assumes different shapes to suit the different functions at the same time. Similarly the mind of the best among jnanis is only the Self and yet manifests as all without suffering any change in its eternal blissful nature as the Self. They are therefore many-minded.

Note. — Kartaviryarjuna was the chief of the Haihayas who were the sworn enemies of Parasurama. He was himself a devotee of Sri Dattatreya and had received the most wonderful boon from his Master, namely, that his name should be transmitted to posterity as that of an ideal king unparalleled in legend or history. His reign was indeed remarkable and his prowess was unequalled, much less excelled. Still, as destiny would have it, he was challenged by Parasurama and killed in battle.

104-105. "The prarabdha of jnanis is still active and sprouts in the mind but only to be burnt up by the steady flame of jnana. Pleasure or pain is due to the dwelling of the mind on occurrences. But if these are scorched at their source, how can there be pain or pleasure?

106-108. "Jnanis of the highest order, however, are seen to be active because they voluntarily bring out the vasanas from the depth of the mind and allow them to run out. Their action is similar to that of a father sporting with his child, moving its dolls, laughing at the imagined success of one doll over another, and appearing to grieve over the injury to another, and so on; or like a man showing sympathy for his neighbour on the occasion of a gain or loss.

109-112. "The vasanas not inimical to realisation are not weeded out by the best class of jnanis because they cannot seek new ones to crowd the old out. Therefore the old ones continue until they are exhausted and thus you find among them some highly irritable, some lustful and others pious and dutiful, and so on.

"Now the lowest order of jnanis still under the influence of their minds know that there is no truth in the objective universe. Their samadhi is not different from that of the rest.

113. "What is samadhi? Samadhi is being aware of the Self, and nothing else — that is to say — it should not be confounded with the Nirvikalpa (undifferentiated) state, for this state is very common and frequent as has been pointed out in the case of momentary samadhis.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by dwai
added context

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

One quote says, "certain personality traits will remain," and the other says, "dropping all personality". Those two phrases are contradictory, and you're dancing. It's a lovely dance dwai, but it's still a dance. 

 

 

I did say I should rephrase to "all those personality traits and conditioning"...its not a dance, but a change in syntax.

[ilumairen]

On 4/29/2019 at 2:35 PM, Wayfarer said:

The texts don't say enlightened because that is a Buddhist / Indian word, they talk about non-being.  Yes, you have missed it, it is the central point to Daoism.  

 

In the space of no-thought there is neither enlightenment nor ignorance.  You are talking in concepts, it is these very things that you need to drop because no amount of methods or techniques can help.  Ikkyu realised "enlightenment" between the sounds of a crow cawing.  What I think you are confusing is after awakening, it can take a while for the conditioned emotional responses to life to begin to drop away.  But if you think something special is going to happen and that there is a difference between an awakened person and an enlightened one you are fooling yourself.  There is no difference between a person who is ignorant and one who is enlightened for they are both the same One.

 

This is all (not your specific post, but the ideas being debated) soo much noise, and, as usual, people seek to make their points and assertions without care to understand where 'other' is coming from. 

 

We humans tend to like our words, and two favorites are awakened and enlightened. Having said this, I believe there can be awakenings that are perhaps not the same "awakened" that the Buddha claimed. Why would I say such a thing? Because I've experienced more than one awakening. And if the first was "enlightenment" why then (and how) would there be another?

 

I believe many have awakenings that are indeed not enlightenment, and that things like claiming there to be no difference between a person who is ignorant and one who is enlightened is a popular intellectualization that enables one to hold various (perhaps momentarily useful) constructs. And that enlightenment does not occur until these constructs fall away.

[thelerner]

8 hours ago, welkin said:

Your body is the way to enlightenment. all the experiences in life, one carries in the body. Find where you carry those experiences and feelings and release them so that you can get back to the physical flexible state of an infant or a baby. In other words, "don't think, feel"

I've been reading Wang Li Ping's book 'Ling Bao Tng Neng Nei Gong Shu'.   Good book, tons of practices in it, perhaps too many but the Golden Flower segment at the end is nicely brief.

 

Anyhow, one of the practice he mentioned that I bookmarked is very close to what you're talking about.   Let me type it out here, the book is full of techniques like this..

 

p.23 Intro to first level practice: Reverse the Memory back to Infancy (Hui Ying Yi Wang)

This section is practicing reversing memory: Remember-forget and remember again.

 

Sit on the floor, naturally cross your legs, straighten the spine and place your hands on your knees, your tongue against hte soft palate and behind the front teeth.

 

Open your eyes and straight look forward as far as you can; let the Shen guang (mind and light) slowly move bakc between the eyebros, close your eyes gently.

 

Remember matters from the morning until now, every detail you can, from getting up in the morning, cleaning your teeth and washing your face...until you sit down to practice this moment.  If in between something is forgotten, try to remember again.  Past memories will be as fresh as when you were a new born baby; look at each of them carefully.  It may come with matter: flower, tree, color, bird, animal.. look at each memory carefully and let it bloom, after totally blooming; the memories will be less frequent and disappear.  Let positive memories bloom and let go of negative memories. '

 

Not a bad night time practice.  A group called ENtrance has guided meditation that takes you to you library of memory to hang out and look at through a tome of your memories.  I have it here- https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/45836-group-guided-meditation-practice/?do=findComment&comment=819174

 

Keeping our most precious happy memories close is so important- they're said to release an internal wellness tonic, yet we tend to do the opposite.  Rerunning the bad, letting the good collect cobwebs. 

 

 

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

I've been reading Wang Li Ping's book 'Ling Bao Tng Neng Nei Gong Shu'.   Good book, tons of practices in it, perhaps too many but the Golden Flower segment at the end is nicely brief.

 

Anyhow, one of the practice he mentioned that I bookmarked is very close to what you're talking about.   Let me type it out here, the book is full of techniques like this..

 

p.23 Intro to first level practice: Reverse the Memory back to Infancy (Hui Ying Yi Wang)

This section is practicing reversing memory: Remember-forget and remember again.

 

Sit on the floor, naturally cross your legs, straighten the spine and place your hands on your knees, your tongue against hte soft palate and behind the front teeth.

 

Open your eyes and straight look forward as far as you can; let the Shen guang (mind and light) slowly move bakc between the eyebros, close your eyes gently.

 

Remember matters from the morning until now, every detail you can, from getting up in the morning, cleaning your teeth and washing your face...until you sit down to practice this moment.  If in between something is forgotten, try to remember again.  Past memories will be as fresh as when you were a new born baby; look at each of them carefully.  It may come with matter: flower, tree, color, bird, animal.. look at each memory carefully and let it bloom, after totally blooming; the memories will be less frequent and disappear.  Let positive memories bloom and let go of negative memories. '

 

Not a bad night time practice.  A group called ENtrance has guided meditation that takes you to you library of memory to hang out and look at through a tome of your memories.  I have it here- https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/45836-group-guided-meditation-practice/?do=findComment&comment=819174

 

Keeping our most precious happy memories close is so important- they're said to release an internal wellness tonic, yet we tend to do the opposite.  Rerunning the bad, letting the good collect cobwebs. 

 

 

 

Very interesting. The Carlos Castañeda books contain a process called "recapitulation" (perhaps @manitou might have more thoughts about it). It involves doing a similar thing, sitting down and moving your head in a repetitive manner, remembering old events, and releasing traumas associated with them. According to Carlos' books, these memories trap our energy in them. As we release the traumas during recapitulation, it frees up the bound energies. It has been many years since I last read his books, so don't recollect exactly. 

 

Here's  a link - https://toltecwarrior.net/2012/06/21/recapitulation/ 

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by dwai

[Pilgrim]

On 4/29/2019 at 8:20 AM, freeform said:

 

Why is it that this notion is not represented in the Daoist and Buddhist classics?

 

While on the other hand it’s over-represented by modern teachers and Instagram memes?

The answer is simple. Different times different writing style for different audience. Different social conditions as well.

 

Awakenings or what I call "Temporary Enlightenment with a leg up" and "Permanent Enlightenment which does not fade or recede happened then and happens now and will in the future,  why give credibility  only to the hoary past? Why only honor that which was versus that which is present? Why only honor that which was written long ago. This is a very strange thing if one does this.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Pilgrim

[freeform]

9 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

Why only honor that which was

 

Thats not really what we want to honour. We want to honour the ancestral root.

 

Nowadays we honour ‘innovation’ - in the past we used to honour our ancestors.

 

We want to honour the ancestors because they are the ones that made (and continue to make) the path possible.

 

My auntie’s oxtail stew recipe is out of this world. I could innovate my own that’s true. It might even be quite tasty. Someone else might innovate my recipe still. But as a result over the years, the root is lost - no one even remembers the taste of my auntie’s recipe. Even though these innovations might be great - it’s also possible that my auntie’s recipe was way way better. She might taste yours and say ‘it’s a great start, but try this’ - and what she has to offer is way beyond what you even thought was possible.

 

With spiritual cultivation it’s similar. It just spans thousands of years.

 

I believe that there was a ‘golden age’ of spiritual cultivation. Everything we have now comes from that time. And either what we have are just photocopies of photocopies with a bit of innovation thrown in - or there’s a thread that runs back and connects to the root. Which is what makes a lineage alive, vibrant and potent.

 

Without the connection to the root, you simply have no idea whether your innovation is of comparable value or not.

 

And so what happens is we lower the bar - significantly.

 

Instead of complete physical embodiment of Yuan Shen being enlightenment - we make enlightenment just the glimpse or a dubious connection with Yuan Shen.

 

And we do some semantic gymnastics - ‘there is no time and space and no destination or path’ - and in one way or another this places us at some ultimate position of completeness.

 

That’s what happens when you don’t have a teacher - a superior to tell you that you’re veering off course. That what you think you have is a delusion. Not because they’re mean, but because they know the pitfalls and the myopic view you have when going through these processes. And they want the very best for you.

[freeform]

11 hours ago, thelerner said:

Anyhow, one of the practice he mentioned that I bookmarked is very close to what you're talking about. 

 

Its a great practice

 

The way my teacher taught it is a little more step by step.

 

The first step is to develop your capacity of recollection. You do it by recollecting a benign but specific span of time (say the 20 minutes prior to the start of the exercise)... the idea is to (over time) remember every single detail using all your senses, in real-time and without missing anything. 

 

Bit harder isn't it

 

And when I say every detail with every sense, I mean like the texture of the ground you walk on. The sound and sensation of your clothes rubbing against you. The change of temperature, air pressure and humidity as you move between spaces and also the thoughts and emotions you had as you went through this 20 minutes... and everything in real-time - as in the exercise should last 20 minutes no longer or no shorter.

 

This takes about a year or two to develop fully - with no errors or much exerted effort. 

 

Then you can move onto slowing down or speeding up memories... This is also a skill that needs to be trained over a period of time. Habitually your mind will jump to the bits that are novel or interesting, but you need to recall everything. So if you’re speeding up a memory - say to 4X the speed - it needs to capture everything at 4X speed. You can go faster and faster. You can then also slow it down - take one footstep and recollect every detail of that in a 20 minute session...

 

Once changing the speed becomes effortless and errorless - only then can you turn this capacity to specific memories from the past.

 

It’s quite common for teachers to leave out what makes exercises actually work from books and that’s the case with Wang Liping’s book. And sometimes it’s for a good reason.

 

But in the case of this exercise what makes it work is the years worth of practice to generate this capacity of total recall. 

 

Its worth it though. You also develop a very good memory and a very sharp mind as a result

[dwai]

I think there's a tendency to label ideas (among other things) and reject those that don't fit our preferred view(s). While it is a good thing to have clarity of views, it is also essential to develop a subtle intelligence, which lets us glean the truth behind the covers. Sort of like "seeing the light shining through from behind the words".

 

In sanskrit these are called "teekshna buddhi' (gross intellect) and "sukshma buddhi" (subtle intelligence).  The gross intellect/intelligence is a result of genetics and social conditioning primarily. The subtle intelligence is a result of spiritual work we put in and contemplation on the paradoxes that are provided to us via life/teacher/texts (for e.g., zen koans). It is this subtle intelligence that will show us the way, help us to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. 

 

If we were to shoot every message down because the messenger didn't fit our  idea of what a "true messenger" should look and act like, we'd end up with a very ignorant society indeed (far more so that it is today).

 

 

It is not a bad thing that there is more awareness today (be it via internet memes for all I care), than there was in the past about deeper spiritual topics. Even if that is at a superficial, it provides a seed for more profound growth, when the conditions are right. 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

I think there's a tendency to label ideas (among other things) and reject those that don't fit our preferred view(s)

 

Couldn't agree more

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

internet memes

 

And here’s where what you stated above applies most. Because every Instagram meme is pandering to a very superficial preference.

 

We like to think that spirituality is all love and harmony and going with the flow, it’s easy, just a realisation, no-effort etc - and this is reflected in these memes.

 

You rarely get verses like...

 

Better than one hundred years lived

Lazily and lacking in effort

Is one day lived

With vigour and exertion.

 

Or

 

A fool suffers, thinking,

”I have children! I have wealth!”

One’s self is not even one’s own.

How then are children? How then is wealth?

 

Or

 

Don't give yourself to negligence,

Don't devote yourself to sensual pleasure.

Vigilant and absorbed in meditation

One attains abundant happiness. 

 

So people take the memes and edit a tradition in a way that suits their preferences and then teaches it as ‘spirituality’ - when in reality is it not just counter-spiritual, but it also drowns out and hides the authentic traditions.

 

So yes I agree with you about our tendency for preferring one aspect over another.

 

But I completely disagree that it’s fine because at least it teaches something - because it doesn’t, it just taints and poisons the well instead

[dwai]

50 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Couldn't agree more

 

 

And here’s where what you stated above applies most. Because every Instagram meme is pandering to a very superficial preference.

 

We like to think that spirituality is all love and harmony and going with the flow, it’s easy, just a realisation, no-effort etc - and this is reflected in these memes.

These are all valid, but have to be taken in the right context. The context will develop when the conditions are right. 

 

Quote

You rarely get verses like...

 

Better than one hundred years lived

Lazily and lacking in effort

Is one day lived

With vigour and exertion.

 

Or

 

A fool suffers, thinking,

”I have children! I have wealth!”

One’s self is not even one’s own.

How then are children? How then is wealth?

 

Or

 

Don't give yourself to negligence,

Don't devote yourself to sensual pleasure.

Vigilant and absorbed in meditation

One attains abundant happiness. 

 

So people take the memes and edit a tradition in a way that suits their preferences and then teaches it as ‘spirituality’ - when in reality is it not just counter-spiritual, but it also drowns out and hides the authentic traditions.

My experience on the ground shows me that is not the case. I’ve been on both sides of the debate since at least 2001, when I started writing a column for a massively popular Indian diaspora portal. I was labeled a “right wing”  Hindu nationalist. I’ve been in such debates in large fora and the outcome is that I changed my perspective. 

 

It primarily happened after I met my master, and had what can be called an awakening. Once it happened, it became apparent to me that there is nothing to protect. The truth is always available, indestructible, cannot be sullied. 

 

Lot of protectionism happens in the spiritual traditions. In Hindu traditions it is called “adhikāra bhēda”. It literally means that there are certain prerequisites one has to have before even being accepted by the guru. While there is something to be said about the qualification of an ideal student, what  this does is that it creates isolated silos which doesn’t do much for the common folk.

 

The primary qualification required for spiritual knowledge is suffering. Unless one has suffered enough in their life, there will not be an overwhelming drive to find the solution (aka seeking). There are exceptions of course, but without suffering, usually dabbling in the spiritual path remains a hobby at best. 

 

And guess what the reality of most people in the world is today? Suffering, which ranges from physical to mental (more and more so with the urban middle classes across the world). This knowledge needs to be disseminated. How it is packaged must keep up with the times, at least at an introductory level. 

 

That doesn’t mean anything goes of course. The knowledge is not there for cherry picking and for people to take pot shots at others they consider “wrong”. 

 

A sincerity of purpose is required, and the primary cause of said sincerity is suffering. When you are suffering, you will sincerely seek its cessation.

 

All philosophical masturbations are in the domain of the dilettantes. Those who are really suffering don’t have the luxury of such nonsense. 

 

Quote

But I completely disagree that it’s fine because at least it teaches something - because it doesn’t, it just taints and poisons the well instead

You are entitled to your opinions , however I’ve seen enough evidence to know that it is never a black and white binary condition like that...

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by dwai

[manitou]

20 hours ago, dwai said:

Very interesting. The Carlos Castañeda books contain a process called "recapitulation" (perhaps @manitou might have more thoughts about it). It involves doing a similar thing, sitting down and moving your head in a repetitive manner, remembering old events, and releasing traumas associated with them. According to Carlos' books, these memories trap our energy in them. As we release the traumas during recapitulation, it frees up the bound energies. It has been many years since I last read his books, so don't recollect exactly. 

 

Here's  a link - https://toltecwarrior.net/2012/06/21/recapitulation/ 

 

 

Hi Dwai,

 

You're right about the Castaneda thing.  It was a recapitulation of his life, not only for the things that he had done that had solidified into a character defect - but also to acknowledge critical axis points in his life.  This is very subtle.  When you really get to looking at the people that changed your life, I found that it wasn't particularly the big events.  Sometimes just acknowledging that a particular teacher at a particular time said just the right combination of words to open awareness in a particular area.

 

From what I remember, it took Carlos years to do this.  He was given the task in the first or second book, then you didn't hear anything about it again until much later in the series.  Like he was doing it the whole time but wasn't talking about it much.  This is the same dynamic used in the alcohol/drug recovery process - discovering the wrongs done and making amends.  It is the most powerful thing in the world, as I see it, as it is a thorough inner cleansing.  I didn't use Don Juan's particular technique because I had already gone through the recovery process and done the steps - but looking for things that need adjusting within us is a process that lasts a lifetime.  The main focus is getting rid of excess ego and taking responsibility for what we've done in our lives.

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

A fool suffers, thinking,

”I have children! I have wealth!”

One’s self is not even one’s own.

How then are children? How then is wealth?

how then is suffering?

[Pilgrim]

14 hours ago, freeform said:

Without the connection to the root, you simply have no idea whether your innovation is of comparable value or not.

Sure you do if the soup is good you will know it, if it is not you will know that also.  There is no need to compare,  value stands out on its own.

 

In the case of something being better I agree it is best to have a leg up and not have to reinvent the wheel. On the other-hand how good does good truly need to be?

 

Once upon a time what is now honored was new also. Look how Zen Shook things up in Japan when it came from China.

 

 

14 hours ago, freeform said:

I believe that there was a ‘golden age’ of spiritual cultivation. Everything we have now comes from that time.

 

These are called Yugas and it is a similar belief. We are now living in the Kali Yuga a very dark period of mass ignorance.

 

It is good to have a teacher.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Pilgrim

[Pilgrim]

6 hours ago, dwai said:

In sanskrit these are called "teekshna buddhi' (gross intellect) and "sukshma buddhi" (subtle intelligence).  The gross intellect/intelligence is a result of genetics and social conditioning primarily. The subtle intelligence is a result of spiritual work we put in and contemplation on the paradoxes that are provided to us via life/teacher/texts (for e.g., zen koans). It is this subtle intelligence that will show us the way, help us to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. 

Excellent explanation, thank you for that. Have never been able to put this into words.

 

 

 

 

[KuroShiro]

On 5/1/2019 at 9:01 PM, thelerner said:

I've been reading Wang Li Ping's book 'Ling Bao Tng Neng Nei Gong Shu'.   Good book, tons of practices in it, perhaps too many but the Golden Flower segment at the end is nicely brief.

Anyhow, one of the practice he mentioned that I bookmarked is very close to what you're talking about.   Let me type it out here, the book is full of techniques like this..

p.23 Intro to first level practice: Reverse the Memory back to Infancy (Hui Ying Yi Wang)

This section is practicing reversing memory: Remember-forget and remember again.

 

Remember matters from the morning until now, every detail you can, from getting up in the morning, cleaning your teeth and washing your face...until you sit down to practice this moment.  If in between something is forgotten, try to remember again.  Past memories will be as fresh as when you were a new born baby; look at each of them carefully.  It may come with matter: flower, tree, color, bird, animal.. look at each memory carefully and let it bloom, after totally blooming; the memories will be less frequent and disappear.  Let positive memories bloom and let go of negative memories. '

 

Keeping our most precious happy memories close is so important- they're said to release an internal wellness tonic, yet we tend to do the opposite.  Rerunning the bad, letting the good collect cobwebs.

 

14 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Its a great practice

 

The way my teacher taught it is a little more step by step.

 

The first step is to develop your capacity of recollection. You do it by recollecting a benign but specific span of time (say the 20 minutes prior to the start of the exercise)... the idea is to (over time) remember every single detail using all your senses, in real-time and without missing anything. 

 

Bit harder isn't it

 

And when I say every detail with every sense, I mean like the texture of the ground you walk on. The sound and sensation of your clothes rubbing against you. The change of temperature, air pressure and humidity as you move between spaces and also the thoughts and emotions you had as you went through this 20 minutes... and everything in real-time - as in the exercise should last 20 minutes no longer or no shorter.

 

This takes about a year or two to develop fully - with no errors or much exerted effort. 

 

Then you can move onto slowing down or speeding up memories... This is also a skill that needs to be trained over a period of time. Habitually your mind will jump to the bits that are novel or interesting, but you need to recall everything. So if you’re speeding up a memory - say to 4X the speed - it needs to capture everything at 4X speed. You can go faster and faster. You can then also slow it down - take one footstep and recollect every detail of that in a 20 minute session...

 

Once changing the speed becomes effortless and errorless - only then can you turn this capacity to specific memories from the past.

 

But in the case of this exercise what makes it work is the years worth of practice to generate this capacity of total recall. 

 

Its worth it though. You also develop a very good memory and a very sharp mind as a result

 

Can't this practice be harmful to the Organs?

 

[KuroShiro]

18 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

We are now living in the Kali Yuga a very dark period of mass ignorance.

 

Do you know how long will it last and what will come next?

[Starjumper]

24 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

Do you know how long will it last and what will come next?

 

I have a fairly good idea what will come next.

[Pilgrim]

31 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Do you know how long will it last and what will come next?

there is much debate some even say we are no longer in it

 

 https://www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles/when-does-the-kali-yuga-end

 

 

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, KuroShiro said:

 

 

Can't this practice be harmful to the Organs?

 

only if you do it while smoking. 

 

On a more serious basis, in my understanding there are cultivation arts where you run energy through the body and doing too much, too fast can possibly be harmful, especially if your energy sensitive.  This level one exercise seems mostly mental, so there's no circulating energy so I doubt it can hurt organs.   

 

I can imagine Freeforms version being mentally exhausting til you get handle on it. 

 

P.S Wang Li Ping does talk about the need to do all these exercises from a state of calm equanimity.  If you have a disturbed mind then you can get into trouble and perhaps simple sitting would be better. 

[Starjumper]

56 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

there is much debate some even say we are no longer in it

 

 https://www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles/when-does-the-kali-yuga-end

 

Do you know if there is any correspondence between the yugas and the great ages of the zodiac?  For example this is the transition time between Pisces and Aquarius.  The twelve ages of the zodiac add up to around 26,000 years, which is similar to a yuga, isn't it?

 

[welkin]

On 5/1/2019 at 1:01 PM, thelerner said:

I've been reading Wang Li Ping's book 'Ling Bao Tng Neng Nei Gong Shu'.   Good book, tons of practices in it, perhaps too many but the Golden Flower segment at the end is nicely brief.

 

Anyhow, one of the practice he mentioned that I bookmarked is very close to what you're talking about.   Let me type it out here, the book is full of techniques like this..

 

p.23 Intro to first level practice: Reverse the Memory back to Infancy (Hui Ying Yi Wang)

This section is practicing reversing memory: Remember-forget and remember again.

 

Sit on the floor, naturally cross your legs, straighten the spine and place your hands on your knees, your tongue against hte soft palate and behind the front teeth.

 

Open your eyes and straight look forward as far as you can; let the Shen guang (mind and light) slowly move bakc between the eyebros, close your eyes gently.

 

Remember matters from the morning until now, every detail you can, from getting up in the morning, cleaning your teeth and washing your face...until you sit down to practice this moment.  If in between something is forgotten, try to remember again.  Past memories will be as fresh as when you were a new born baby; look at each of them carefully.  It may come with matter: flower, tree, color, bird, animal.. look at each memory carefully and let it bloom, after totally blooming; the memories will be less frequent and disappear.  Let positive memories bloom and let go of negative memories. '

 

Not a bad night time practice.  A group called ENtrance has guided meditation that takes you to you library of memory to hang out and look at through a tome of your memories.  I have it here- https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/45836-group-guided-meditation-practice/?do=findComment&comment=819174

 

Keeping our most precious happy memories close is so important- they're said to release an internal wellness tonic, yet we tend to do the opposite.  Rerunning the bad, letting the good collect cobwebs. 

 

 

 

 

Incredible... This is exactly what i've been searching to explain that concept. I did the physical aspect of it, i never thought to actually think about memories as i'm doing that. Very insightful.

 

Thank you for bringing up the book and the thread as well!

 

 

[Pilgrim]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

Do you know if there is any correspondence between the yugas and the great ages of the zodiac?  For example this is the transition time between Pisces and Aquarius.  The twelve ages of the zodiac add up to around 26,000 years, which is similar to a yuga, isn't it?

 

Vedic Astrology would probably tie them in. I confess to know very little about the yugas as to me they are a concept which is beyond my ability to do anything about.

 

To me the definition of intelligence is to function well wherever and whenever one finds themselves.

 

Now were I to go by feeling alone and what I have observed I would say we are emerging from it or are in the start of a better era.

 

There are allot of people here now that have access to communications like never before and allot of interest in doing and being better even though some are in the  teenage stages of awakening going for more of an exercise approach.

 

I did when I was in my early teens. Could channel Chi easily for performance enhancement. But all that Chi moving lead me to deeper and deeper desires to discover true root meanings of existence so I think it works like this.  

 

When I was 17,  33 years ago I got the awakening.

 

The enlightenment and I smiled because the answer to everything was that it was all so simple. I felt like laughing crying rejoicing and telling the whole world oh my goodness it is all so simple it is right in front of us all the time there are no needs to worry no need to worry over anything be upset over anything everything is just fine the way it is and always has been and always will be no matter what.

 

Instead I was silent. And watched that morph.

 

I also knew this was not going to last for me and that no one would understand anything if I said it.

 

So I enjoyed being whole and watched it slip away like I was becoming dumber and dumber compared to earlier in the day.

 

Then I leveled off something like 12 hours later.  The one who was left was not the same as the one who woke that morning.

 

My entire life from that day till now has been one of return little by little. I also know I will not make it in this life and am fine with it. Estimate next incarnation or maybe 3 more at most depends on how hard I push, if I push it is going to take longer

 

I would like to see a show of hands who here is enlightened or the equivalent of the word as we have explored it within their system?

 

I am not.