To those who plan to join "traditionaltao" and those affected by it.

[Buddy]

"I agree David has knowledge and can also write very well and this helps bring in more students, i feel that 250 is too expansive especially living in Australia with the currency as well the money spent on visiting David and his teachers in euro's will cost the aussies alot more."

 

Since it's so expensive I guess I'll never know BUT:

 

He has knowledge or information? There is a vast gulf between those two and an even vaster one between knowledge and skill.

 

Just sayin'

[Wun Yuen Gong]

I think he has it cause he is studying under Master Wang li Ping so im hoping he does learn it right!?

 

If i had money i would like to see what its about to compare to what my system has and if there is any connection to my Primordial Chaos system so those masters could help me on my path.

 

WYG

[Oolong Rabbit]

This is all just my opinion, but you know human nature never ceases to amaze me. On the one hand we have Lin Aiwei on this forum. He is the epitome of wisdom, compassion, and patience. He is giving away his teachings for FREE! How many of you are going to his weekend seminar? I know 2 maybe 3 people. On the other hand you have David Verdesi. I see a very large ego, a materialistic driven system which will accept virtually anyone with the money, and very questionable practices. Many of you guys are tripping over yourselves to go pay 5000 Euros plus thousands more for the additional healings and "treatments". There's something seriously wrong with this picture.

 

Someone earlier also quoted that David was a former student of John Chang. What they didn't mention was that John Chang is apparently very upset with David and the way he is operating. I believe they are not even on speaking terms.

 

Also when all of the commotion about Jiang was happening on this site several months ago, Sean said David had an offer to waive the fee and prove to me that Jiang was legit. I had to join their forum to see the offer, so I did, The offer was that he would waive his fee. I would fly to China and offer to be exposed to Jiang's full power. I would have to sign a waiver that they would not be held accountable if my internal organs exploded or I died... AND THEN I WOULD HAVE TO PAY THE FULL FEE TO MEET JIANG. What kind of people are these? What is the attraction? I just don't get it folks.

[DentyDao]

Hey Guys,

 

The forum attracted a number of young people and individuals in a low income bracket who were and are very sincere. People that, for whatever reason, were attracted but cannot afford the training. I sincerely sympathize with this situation having been a college student once myself. One of the goals of the foundation forum is to eventually provide scholarships for very dedicated young people who lack the funding to enroll in the program.

 

Just to put things in perspective, the basic foundation training is a three year program that involves a two week commitment once a year and is comparable in cost to other similar programs. One seminar's tuition costs roughly 1,600.00 US dollars and you would need to attend four seminars to complete the training; after the first two seminars the cost is reduced to almost half, about 800.00-900.00 US Dollars. This is a complete training and all one need to progress to a very high level of realization.

 

Just to say, the cost is not as absurd as this thread claims. Many people at the top of their respective fields charge much more to attend their seminars. The dragondoor.com Guru Pavlave or whatever, is a friend and client of one of David's students. I guess has charged as much as 2,500 for a weekend of personal coaching. And, if you want to get incredibly strong, they say he is one of the absolute best. It's the same kind of thing with David. His students are really serious and want really top instruction, pretty cut and dry honestly.

 

The masters that David works with include Wang Liping and others of a comparable status. They are heads of huge organizations and have tremendous commitments to literally thousands of students throughout China. Naturally, just to arrange a week of exclusive time with someone like Wang Liping costs a great deal of money, thus the high cost to train with a master. Wang Liping is responsible for overseeing all the Taoist temples in China, in addition to many other duties.

 

Logically, to attend a training with Warren Buffet on how to make money will cost more than attending a training with someone without his reputation and unquestionable aptitude. It's not such a mystery really.

 

Again, I sympathize with the desire to have training of such a high caliber with highly qualified teachers available to a wider audience. David and his masters also want people at every socioeconomic to have access to authentic Daoist teachings and some basic teaching will be made available in a book David is writing at Sifu Wang's request.

 

In the mean time, as Max has said, there are some excellent teachings out there. I can't comment on all his recommendations, but Buddhism really is a perfectly profound teaching. Dzogchen in particular is a very high level system of teachings, with many Daoist influences and commonalities.

 

As for the forum, we feel that the services offered for our members is well worth the one time fee. Many forums charge much more and on a yearly basis. We charge a one time fee for lifetime membership; $250.00 US dollars. That's less than a dollar a day over the course of a year.

 

Of course all the basic information is provided on the website (created with funds raised largely from Taobum.com members, thanks guys), so there is no need or requirement to join the forum. I don't see what there is to be so upset over and we have had a good response from our members, many of whom have already signed up.

 

As for the other accusations, in the entire forum history we banned two people; and only after days of negative ranting on their part. We simple wish to be among fellow students and those like-minded; and for those who share are interests and like the idea of online training and getting their questions answered, it not such a huge deal.

 

Cheers, Sean

Edited February 2, 2008 by seandenty

[DentyDao]

Also when all of the commotion about Jiang was happening on this site several months ago, Sean said David had an offer to waive the fee and prove to me that Jiang was legit. I had to join their forum to see the offer, so I did, The offer was that he would waive his fee. I would fly to China and offer to be exposed to Jiang's full power. I would have to sign a waiver that they would not be held accountable if my internal organs exploded or I died... AND THEN I WOULD HAVE TO PAY THE FULL FEE TO MEET JIANG. What kind of people are these? What is the attraction? I just don't get it folks.

 

If you would have had the actual commitment to come, David would not have let you get hurt. That's just silly, but then again it's pretty clear that you weren't all that serious.

 

I recently met with Sifu Jiang. The man who discredited him on his blog has since apologized; the newspaper article was a complete tabloid fabrication. The student is now helping Jiang publish a retraction.

 

Anyway, Jiang burnt blisters into all of our hands from over a meters distance with no preparation or physical contact. David also insisted that Jiang remove his clothing to pass the electric like surge of qi which was incredibly strong and overwhelming and doesn't require any training on the receiving end to be perceived, no battery pack.

 

Anyway, Anwei is a fine teacher. I wish you success in your training.

 

Peace, S

[Buddy]

Sean,

C'mon, it's a business. Don't try to bullshit anyone otherwise. How much money did Jesus charge anyone for his teaching? I don't have a problem with people charging for their services, not by a long shot. But Warren Buffets success is a proven commodity, you just offer promises.

Mr. Buffet's method can be had readily, there's folks who worked for him who wrote books about it. He didn't threaten anyone with curses from the gods like you guys do. You're a bullshit cult.

[neimad]

It is all delusion.

 

There can never be a real teacher for something that everyone inherently knows inside anyway.

 

Realization only comes through ones own work, regardless of the discipline.

 

 

 

Subscribing to teachers, techniques, etc... all just deepens the fantastic delusion of all that just simply is.

 

 

The world is already a magical place without need to subscribe to even more fantastical, and completely misunderstood terms like "chi" etc.

 

My mind boggles when I even think of a tiny little red blood cell carrying around an oxygen molecule that I just breathed in from the air.... that is the real magic.

[DentyDao]

Sean,

C'mon, it's a business. Don't try to bullshit anyone otherwise. How much money did Jesus charge anyone for his teaching? I don't have a problem with people charging for their services, not by a long shot. But Warren Buffets success is a proven commodity, you just offer promises.

Mr. Buffet's method can be had readily, there's folks who worked for him who wrote books about it. He didn't threaten anyone with curses from the gods like you guys do. You're a bullshit cult.

 

I don't really know how to respond to that. All I can say is that David and his teachers are in demand and very well respected in China. Wang Liping really is the guy who determines what is taught in the Daoist temples in China, monks and lay people wait years just to meet him. You don't have to believe me I guess.

 

Warren Buffet's advice might be in a few books, but how many people personally apprentice with him and get hands on assistance and mentoring, very few.

 

Ok, guys. I'll leave you to it. To each his own.

[Buddy]

"Warren Buffet's advice might be in a few books, but how many people personally apprentice with him and get hands on assistance and mentoring, very few."

 

No, Sean. They're not. Just go to a Borders. Please talk about what you know

People stand in line to get to a WWF show, it doesn't make it real.

What David is doing is a business. Did the Buddha charge for his teaching? If I go to Sri Lanka or Cambodia or Nepal now, and say to a monk..I can't afford to pay you. What do you think they'd say? I already know.

Just be up front that it's a straight up marketing scheme. I'd at least respect that. Oh, and don't mention the Revenge of the Gods.

[DentyDao]

Yes, the training that David provides is a business. Yep, it's not Buddhism which is usually free, not always; generally the teacher receives financial support from his students. David live a typical middle class life, he's not rich.

 

I'm the only one doing any marketing in the states. And I'm a volunteer school teacher.

 

Revenge of the Gods? Um, you lost me there.

 

Is this conversation really necessary? I mean, I have really moved on.

 

Good grief

[Gerard]

OK my two cents. I have been holding up for a long time but I am going to show you the real deal (nothing new btw):

 

I like many of you have lived many lives. I recall quite a few but two of them are the most significant in terms of spiritual development:

 

1. Taoist Baguazhang master and bodyguard of the Chinese Emperor.

 

2. Lama (my previous life).

 

Hence I am a Sotapanna (stream-enterer), that is none that is guaranteed enlightenment after no more than seven successive rebirths, and possibly in fewer. The stream-enterer can also be sure that he or she will not be reborn in any of the unhappy states or rebirths (that is, as an animal, a preta, or a being in hell). He can only be reborn as a human being, or in a heaven.

 

The stream-enterer has attained an intuitive grasp of Buddhist doctrine (samyagdṛṣṭi or sammādiṭṭhi, "right view"), has complete confidence or Saddha in the Three Jewels of Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, and has good moral behaviour (Sila). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment).

 

Sorry if I sound as a show-off. No please, don't misunderstand me. I did it because I feel that making money out of the spiritual path is wrong, and I feel sorry for those who seek siddhis instead of a good moral behaviour and success in the spiritual path in terms of enriching their spirits.

 

I work and I will work until I pay my debts, once I accomplish this I will become a renunciate in order to finish what I couldn't in my previous life because I was killed but the Chinese during the invasion of Tibet.

 

Remember that the Buddhist spiritual path is pure and free of charge:

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/

 

Vipassana meditation is the best meditation technique of all:

 

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1...abbata.html#N50

 

Free of charge in Buddhanet.

 

When combined with Zhan Zhuang (also practiced by Gautama Buddha) and moving Qigong (Xingyi, Taiji, Bagua, I Liq Chuan, Ziranmen, etc.) then you'll speed up the process.

 

Taoist practices are awesome to strengthen our spirits, body's and chi but they won't open a door out of Samsara. Buddhism does.

 

But hey, I am not trying to confront these two at all, far from that as I practice both

 

Good luck, persevere in your practice and remember that many lives are required to reach Nirvana.

[sunshine]

Girls and guys,

 

due to a new job I am pretty tight with time and do not have enough room to read through all that has been written so far. But I feel the need to address what Oolong wrote: I have not the slightest intent to make anybody a "bad guy". Neither openly nor subtly!

 

In a way you continue to amaze me: We both could argue a lot and I have personal gripes with your approach because you seem to always choose to paint the possible negative. Now. Is this again a try to make you look as the "bad guy"?

 

And yes: I absolutely see human truth as relative. I DO believe in an objetive truth & I DO believe there are people more close to it than others. And I DO assume "these" masters are. Do I know for sure? Simple answer: I don't!

 

Chanwu and I simply have a different believe about things. I personally do not believe that meditating one hour a day and deep bellow breathing etc. will lead you "there". If I were to believe it I would do it. The story with the "girl and her believe in God" was meant to point that out clearly. There sure ARE different ways towards "the" destination (whatever it is)... I chose one because I believe in it. And I believe not every way actually leads you there.

 

One more: I want to tell you openly: I have absolutely NO clue what the way is to actually realize the "objective" truth without having the "subjective" interfere. Once again though I assume it is possible. Practice hopefully gets me closer to it... and if it happens I doubt it is clearly expressable so that everybody can understand.

 

By the way: thankx Max!

 

bye

 

 

Harry

Edited February 2, 2008 by sunshine

[mwight]

Verdesi does have the top masters in the world, however I disagree with his business model.

 

Knowledge was meant to be free, not secret and sold to the highest bidder.

 

Also I think if Verdesi made instructional dvd's for the foundation training, and sold them for $500 (requiring a NDA) he would make MORE than he is now, because it would be available to more people and vastly more affordable.

Edited February 2, 2008 by mwight

[Adam West]

Changed my mind. Edited February 2, 2008 by Adam West

[Buddy]

Like I've said, I have no problem with folks needing to pay the mortgage. But when you indoctrinate someone into a belief system and then use that belief system against them when they don't toe the line, that's a cult. Sounds like the Medieval Christian Church...don't follow the pope, burn for eternity.

BTW this is not meant to be directed at Mr. Wang, although he allows the practice. I read Cleary's book and found it to be very fanciful, sort of like the Wandering Taoist. But I don't know the practices so won't comment on them.

[宁]

from what i know Jiang doesnt charge one penny

i dont know about Liping, but i expect to be the same

 

so i let you figure it out

 

also i know that money are very important to Chinese people, they even have money for the dead.

it is like sex, that in the West has been satanized over the centuries

money had the same fate in the West

But the Grand East sees Money a lot different than us. for us any association between money and spirit is of bad taste. but to them is a form in which you show them your "Sincerity".

so, having these anthropology facts, and those above, you draw whatever conclusion you want.

 

the truth is, i know of students that are payed BY the teacher, so that they can study and afford to study.

why is that, is because real students are very scarce, very rare. if they are to find one, they are looking everywhere, and sometimes they take him out of the cradle of his childhood only to teach him fresh... just like our friend Radu was searching.

 

and i expect that, whatever paradoxically the situation may be, the real thing to be the same even with Liping and Jiang. there are two categories of students:

- smart students that pay

- stupid students that pay

and the third would be

- real students, part of the familiy, of which you sometimes dont even suspect they are students at all

 

these may sound as fancifull theories, but just keep them in mind, maybe someday will help

 

Little

 

PS: About DShen i dont know anything and wont comment. although time will show what is it all about. he has a very respectable business, his students are sharp and smart and dont get fooled as easily as most of you guys think. he just told them that he had what they want, and demonstrated that he can deliver.

what more could you want. especially if you afford it, and want to Finally Figure It Out. Liping has the best credentials ever. and his association with David is taken as a guarantee. its fool-proof. imagine that all the guys there paying all that doll' turned and searched every corner.

 

i met them on the forum (admit it SeanD, i wasnt that bad, you kicked me out because i was saying Mantak's methods are good, and the rest of you didnt agree, so, David knew i wouldnt shut up so he did what any Chinese would do - im past that, and am really impressed by your progresses, they are shown in the tone and discipline of your messages)

 

what to do? there is a proverb that says People Throw Rocks At What They Cant Reach

 

i guess, as Max said, everyone should stick to what their possibilities can afford, and move on, carry on.

if David proved anything to us with SeanD's Forum, is that you require a lot of work to make a good method yield results.

 

they practice a couple of hours a day, for God's sake! if any of us would be that dedicated, im pretty sure they would get the same best results, if not better. it is all in the amount of Trust and Dedication you grant your Practice and System and Teacher.

 

take care and let the trolling for trolls

[DentyDao]

from what i know Jiang doesnt charge one penny

i dont know about Liping, but i expect to be the same

 

I appreciate the kind post. I should be mentioned that Jiang and Liping do charge. For Liping, the government demands payment for his time, especially for foreigners.

 

Again, I understand this idea of taking money for spiritual practice being taboo in the States; or anywhere for that matter. It will likely always be viewed suspiciously by some. The Chinese view it as a test of sincerity and determination; as well as intelligence to have the ability to master money and demonstrate an acceptable level of aptitude in the material world.

 

Money=metal, which is the base of alchemy.

 

When I was studying with Liping, he said he really wants the teachings to spread. That's why he is writing a book with David to share some of the basic outer teachings openly. For those who reach a good level, doors will open.

 

Taoist practices are awesome to strengthen our spirits, body's and chi but they won't open a door out of Samsara. Buddhism does.

Wang Liping is a Buddhist and a Daoist. Many Daoist lineages have produced living Buddhas, just as prolifically as Buddhism the formal religious entity. Wang Liping is a Buddha on a par with Padmasambava, but he doesn't go around making claims, he doesn't need to. And he can demonstrate all the powers of a Buddha not just talk about it. The point is not to make silly comparisons to show one is better than another. Daoism is Dharma, only people with limited understanding see a distinction. Edited February 2, 2008 by seandenty

[宁]

 

i think we could see a paradigm here:

 

step 1 - since the Indian tantric gurus came to the West, the West started to reconsider SEX as it can be a tool for self improvement, and even help us to evolve spiritually...

 

 

step 2 - since the Chinese qigong masters came to the West, we started to reconsider MONEY as being a valuable asset in spiritual development...

 

Of course, we are still in the middle of that process now, because there are more people out there having SEX than having MONEY. But sometimes you need MONEY in order to have SEX, well... some people do. Boy is this a puzzle...

 

Edited February 2, 2008 by Little1

[SiliconValley]

step 1 - since the Indian tantric gurus came to the West, the West started to reconsider SEX as it can be a tool for self improvement, and even help us to evolve spiritually...

step 2 - since the Chinese qigong masters came to the West, we started to reconsider MONEY as being a valuable asset in spiritual development...

 

None of these masters who overtly gave importance to Sex, much more than what was necessary, sometimes towing away other rather required practices, were REAL masters anyway. Of course, there were exceptions like Yogananda who really wanted to teach the West. Most were and are really those who saw/see a great potential to make money in the west. In India, most understand the practices or have at least heard something about what really takes one to enlightenment and these BS guys stand no chance there. As an Indian, it is sometimes painful for me to see these Gurus who know nothing, exploiting some sincere westerners for sex and money. A master leads a simple life, does not build establishments around himself that tie him down, teaches only the sincere student and the teaching is never in exchange of money. Though these are the requisites of a real Indian master, I don't see why it should be different for a true master from any other culture. A Master, who is enlightened, is not affected by Karma as the sphere of Karma is lifted on enlightenment. The identification with one's limited self and attachment to the results of the actions performed are what cause Karma and these cease after enlightenment. So the karmic exchange theory oft quoted for exchange of money in spiritual matters does not make sense. Nature takes care of the enlightened master and he never worries about his physical sustenance or pursues material goals specifically. The ancient scriptures prophesied the 'Newage Gurus' thousands of years ago:

 

The gurus of today are shisha-hrit-tapa-haraka: [shishya - disciple's, hrit-heart; tapa-agony; haraka:-take away]. But in later days, they will be shishya-vitta-apaharaka: [shishya-disciple's, vitta-money; apaharaka:-take away]. Also, how could some bonding between a disciple and his master, established on the basis of whatever energy pattern that 'money energy or metal' can have, do the disciple any good and burn any karma? All this is business at the end of the day and it would be better to simply acknowledge the same than come up with phony excuses. Not many masters today are 'really' enlightened and in such cases, considering their need to make a living, charging money is not bad, but giving a metaphysical touch to this exchange certainly is, IMHO....

Edited February 2, 2008 by SiliconValley

[Chanwu]

Charging is not a problem.

 

The problem is:

 

Overcharging, hidden fees when people already have paid 5000 euros where the master kills huge animals for you to be healed... huge fee that the students don't get told about in advance, and a very questionable practise in itself

 

The "buy now or never approach", being selective as to who got the most money, ... I have already gone through most of it in my starting post.

 

D will get around, at least, 100.000$ for only the summer seminar. So you can see how much this brings each year, if he has 4-5 of those a year.

 

You say that the chinese look upon money as a part of the "metal in alchemy", surely that may be so, but this is not a balanced cost at all. And this is a very prostituted approach, if you ask me. He would be excluded from many of the pais for doing this, it is not what the teachings are meant to be about.

 

Charging is one thing, as I said, but getting rich from it, is another. Him getting rich means he has to take from many and keep all for himself, while he give out something that is no product but is completely free and natural for us all. It's like stealing something and then selling it back to the same person for money.

 

And the fact that he doesn't want the teachings to spread from his own students, or that he doesn't let anyone else teach the first forms of meditation, clearly shows that he wants monopoly.

 

Of course, he is in the process of releasing books and dvds - this will make him even richer because not only will you get basic instructions from these but you need to buy the really expensive stuff to move on from there. And with him being the only authority and the "only one able to pass on initiations".... well you do the math.

 

I feel sorry for both D and his students...

Edited February 2, 2008 by Chanwu

[Buddy]

Very nicely put.

[宁]

yes nicely put, but the last sentence "I feel sorry for them" just doesnt add...

 

Their situation doesnt seem to require any complaining on their part

 

Chanwu, I understand your frustration, please dont be upset, I am sure things will get better for you in some other way, cheer up

[Chanwu]

I am in no way frustrated, I am concerned, that is all.

 

Buddy didn't mean my post, I think. But thanks for the compliment.

[Guest allan]

Hey Guys,

 

The masters that David works with <i>include Wang Liping and others of a comparable status.</i> They are heads of huge organizations and have tremendous commitments to literally thousands of students throughout China. Naturally, just to arrange a week of exclusive time with someone like Wang Liping costs a great deal of money, thus the high cost to train with a master. <b>Wang Liping is responsible for overseeing all the Taoist temples in China, in addition to many other duties.</b>

 

AND later:

 

<b>Wang Liping really is the guy who determines what is taught in the Daoist temples in China, monks and lay people wait years just to meet him.</b> You don't have to believe me I guess.

 

 

Hi seandenty!

 

For a student, you certainly made a lot of claims about something that may be too deep for you or your teacher(s) to know or understand.

 

As far as I am aware, Wang Liping from Quanzhen has reached an immortal level. But you guys have been marketing him as Lei Shan Dao, now a Buddha and what not. Based on that, I am not surprised to hear that John Chang is annoyed with your teacher commercializing the teachings.

 

Then you claimed that Wang Liping is responsible for all Daoist temples in China and is the guy who determines what is taught in these temples. That is bull shit. I doubt he claims that unless he is not what I think he is.

 

Do you or your teacher David know about the existence of heavenly immortals in Quanzhen temples in China? If you do, perhaps both of you would be a bit more circumspect in your claims.

 

Regards

 

allan

[sunshine]

>>Like I've said, I have no problem with folks needing to pay the mortgage. But when you indoctrinate someone into a belief system and then use that belief system against them when they don't toe the line, that's a cult.<<

 

Where you got that from Buddy?

 

Chanwu,

 

Why in heaven do you so much care about something that does not really affect you? You are not interested in it and you don't pay. No reason to vent your anger on something that shouldn't even be touching you. Energy could be better spent with something else I honestly feel.

 

You want to protect people from "it", fine. Seems to be a nice thing to do. But I feel it is of absolutely no benefit to go into length into enumerating all things you do not like if you by no means have been affected yourself, do not know what is being discussed behind the scenes (you just have your landscape of "extenal picture" and quite a few things of what you raise as "problematic" are discussed and have solutions) and so many other things.

 

Really guys. In psychology one would very likely say you are projecting something here... (Oolong. Is this again a wicket try to make Chanwu look like the "bad" or "silly guy"? No intent Chanwu!)

 

So. I would very much be happy if you leave the discussions of the topics at hand to those who are indeed affected (if at all).

 

 

Harry