Visiting Reincarnation Again & again

[thelerner]

I was wondering peoples thoughts on reincarnation.  Being a Westerner I don't give it much though, though of after lives it has more proof then say the Western heaven, ie what I consider to be well researched factual books finding young children who remember past lives with details that prove accurate.  In some cases even having birth marks that correlated to past life causes of death.  Interesting stuff.  Course reincarnation isn't the only explanation but its up there.

 

Course reincarnation can seem like the 'prosperity' brand of Christianity, ie God loves you so you're born rich, or conversely you were bad so you're born poor.  That sorta belief in rebirth or theology doesn't sit well with me.  Guess its because I don't see rich as ethically better or poor as worse (or vice versa). 

 

For those who believe in reincarnation what 'sorting' system do you see working?  Does the system include rebirth as animal?  And what does it say about getting off the 'wheel'?   Does getting off mean, silent 'true' death, or getting to be other dimensional godlike beings? 

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Personally, I don't know.  The logical/material side of me says death is simply an off switch.  I kinda hope that there's more,  a return of essence with a basking in a certain universal satori joy.   Though one doesn't always get what one hopes for. 

[Marblehead]

10 minutes ago, thelerner said:

double post.

Over and over again.

 

I didn't get a ticket to reincarnate.

 

 

[Stosh]

I figure you have to prove that you can persist without a body., that you arent a version of everyone else..that you arent an expression of a much greater principle...and once you prove that you are a dinky lone quirk of chance that miraculously isolates itself through the immensity of the universe,,that for some reason youre so critical that the universe needs to perpetuate all your foibles.. that it needs to reinsert you into a body perpetually. 

If thats the case.. Ill take the job of barnacle next go round.

[steve]

I won’t say I believe but I see truth in rebirth. Important to remember that along with rebirth, in Bön and Buddhism at least, there is also the realization of emptiness. Reconciling those two concepts goes interesting places.

[Lost in Translation]

I don't know. Lots of people say lots of things, and some are pretty convincing. I guess we'll all find out eventually, or not.

 

I do think there might be a reflection of reincarnation in everyday life. For example: I remember when I was five. I don't remember all of it, just the highlights, but there is enough there to know that the five year old in my memories was me. But those memories in no way mean that I am that five year old. No, that five year old is gone - but a reflection of him lives on through me. I suppose reincarnation might work something like that - shared memories that provide continuity and context.

[Gerard]

Look at the body as the most external layer. This layer will eventually fade away (due to impermanence, as there is birth there is also death) and the process will go on for many times until the core (original Mind, Spirit) stops amusing itself, in other words, that craving for form or physical pleasure is an illusion, meanwhile you'll learn many lessons. Baby--->young--->mature---->old---->transcendental soul---->reunion with the Absolute, Tao, the final birth, the Big One. These are the steps in the evolution of the Mind.

 

Destinations? Many depending on the state of the Mind. A happy mind --->Heaven; a miserable Mind will create itself the perfect condition for it to dwell on ---->Hell. And everything in between (ghost, animal, human....also many locations not only this Gaia/Earth) as the universe (Tao) is infinite. But it makes it easier to come back here (or nearby) as the 'soul" is familiar with it and to allow for an easier transition.

 

Better is to find out this stuff through intensive practice. It's also a siddhi, some develop it whereas other practitioners develop other psychic abilities, like astral projection, manipulation of physical matter, communication with entities living in other planes of existence, etc; something you are already familiar with anyway.

 

 

 

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[Miroku]

Maybe you could find this article on reincarnation quite interesting.

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, Miroku said:

Maybe you could find this article on reincarnation quite interesting.

Good support for those who believe.  I don't, of course.

 

[Stosh]

It Looks to me that James in the article , came back as a bullshit artist.

[dwai]

15 hours ago, thelerner said:

I was wondering peoples thoughts on reincarnation.  Being a Westerner I don't give it much though, though of after lives it has more proof then say the Western heaven, ie what I consider to be well researched factual books finding young children who remember past lives with details that prove accurate.  In some cases even having birth marks that correlated to past life causes of death.  Interesting stuff.  Course reincarnation isn't the only explanation but its up there.

 

Course reincarnation can seem like the 'prosperity' brand of Christianity, ie God loves you so you're born rich, or conversely you were bad so you're born poor.  That sorta belief in rebirth or theology doesn't sit well with me.  Guess its because I don't see rich as ethically better or poor as worse (or vice versa). 

 

For those who believe in reincarnation what 'sorting' system do you see working?  Does the system include rebirth as animal?  And what does it say about getting off the 'wheel'?   Does getting off mean, silent 'true' death, or getting to be other dimensional godlike beings? 

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Personally, I don't know.  The logical/material side of me says death is simply an off switch.  I kinda hope that there's more,  a return of essence with a basking in a certain universal satori joy.   Though one doesn't always get what one hopes for. 

How interesting. My friend recently posted this -- 

http://www.mukti.world/2018/05/what-happens-after-death.html

 

[thelerner]

13 hours ago, Stosh said:

I figure you have to prove that you can persist without a body.,

 

Let's face it, 'proof' is not a strong point when it comes to the afterlife.  Though reincarnation does have some.  Yet even there the mechanisms and proofs are a bit sketchy.  Plus it leaves open the does it really matter, because if we don't remember our lives and not given a piece of paper what we should do better, then maybe it doesn't matter.

 

Probably this world should be most important focus.  Or should it?  If we had a fundamentalist twist we could well conclude the afterlife is more important and infinitely longer then our moments on Earth.

 

In the past I thought dreamwork might provide the best avenue towards understanding death or perhaps solidifying the identity in midst of the forces of unconsciousness.  Never had much luck in it.  Though an afterlife lived out as a lucid dream might be very pleasant.  That was a focus in the Movie What Dream Might Come. 

[dwai]

9 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Let's face it, 'proof' is not a strong point when it comes to the afterlife.  Though reincarnation does have some.  Yet even there the mechanisms and proofs are a bit sketchy.  Plus it leaves open the does it really matter, because if we don't remember our lives and not given a piece of paper what we should do better, then maybe it doesn't matter.

 

Probably this world should be most important focus.  Or should it?  If we had a fundamentalist twist we could well conclude the afterlife is more important and infinitely longer then our moments on Earth.

 

In the past I thought dreamwork might provide the best avenue towards understanding death or perhaps solidifying the identity in midst of the forces of unconsciousness.  Never had much luck in it.  Though an afterlife lived out as a lucid dream might be very pleasant.  That was a focus in the Movie What Dream Might Come. 

We can see our own past lives when a certain degree of freedom from conditioning happens. It is strange when it happens, because it's like watching something in a dream. 

 

Our problem is that we think we've become "smarter" because we use more technology. Nothing could be farther from the truth. We are grotesquely out of balance. We're like body builders who only do left bicep curls and nothing else. Our rational minds are like that left bicep. Disproportionally oversized and overwhelming all other aspects of our being  

[dawei]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

We can see our own past lives when a certain degree of freedom from conditioning happens. It is strange when it happens, because it's like watching something in a dream. 

 

I've had 'awake dreams' like this.  At first it is interesting but then it became like a stream of lives and I began to wonder if I'm also just seeing other's past life.   Then I thought, why not look to a future life... and the answer came back, 'no reason to do it'.   So I didn't.

[thelerner]

If 'we' accept reincarnation-

   Do 'We' want to come back? 

             What are the alternatives?

 

 

myself- Here my theology is affected by a movie (What Dreams May Come), which is always a bad sign.  If its between, nothingness and reincarnation, I'd roll the dice.  I enjoy life, why not try it again.

If its between reincarnation and a type of heaven, then its harder.  Like the aforementioned movie, I might get tired of heaven, of myself and at some point want to re-experience the world.. might take awhile though. 

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

I've never understood why people think reincarnation is not true and when we die we're just get switched off. I come from a western country, was brought up without any religion. But already as a child i was sure of this, anything else seemed just illogical/strange/madeup...ungraspable for me.

 

Now that I'm older these ideas of course have rooted in my mind , there have been some experiences too

 

But I have no theories, no need of them either. I do admit to being a little curious to what will happen after the body gives up its last breath.

[dwai]

5 minutes ago, thelerner said:

If 'we' accept reincarnation-

   Do 'We' want to come back? 

             What are the alternatives?

 

 

myself- Here my theology is affected by a movie (What Dreams May Come), which is always a bad sign.  If its between, nothingness and reincarnation, I'd roll the dice.  I enjoy life, why not try it again.

If its between reincarnation and a type of heaven, then its harder.  Like the aforementioned movie, I might get tired of heaven, of myself and at some point want to re-experience the world.. might take awhile though. 

 

 

What if there was nothing other than your Self?

Nothingness, Manifestation, Birth, Death, they are all just aspects of your infinite being. 

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

What if there was nothing other than your Self?

Nothingness, Manifestation, Birth, Death, they are all just aspects of your infinite being. 

I'd probably turn mastermind terrorist and

tell the Universe, if it didn't give me untold riches

I'd kill myself, destroying everything. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by thelerner

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, thelerner said:

I'd probably turn mastermind terrorist and

tell the Universe didn't give me untold riches

I'd kill myself, destroying everything. 

Why? 

[thelerner]

Earlier Dwai- What if there was nothing other than your Self?

 

 

18 minutes ago, dwai said:

Why? 

 

For the money ofcourse. 

I'd be bluffing, but seems to me,

if there was nothing other then mySelf,

then my bargaining power would be immense. 

I should be able to get whatever I demanded. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by thelerner

[Michael Sternbach]

The non-belief in an afterlife in general (including reincarnation) is characteristic of people that buy into the reductionist-materialistic view which is, by and large, a result of the so-called Age of Enlightenment. According to this view, mind is little more than a function of matter.

 

This is a reversal of the classical understanding, of course, in which the physical universe was born from spirit. Personally, this makes much more sense to me, for reasons too numerous to enlist  here, with the most  fundamental one perhaps being that I perceive myself as a spiritual being inhabiting a physical body rather than as existing as a consequence of the latter.

 

Further, I don't exactly feel that I am around for the first time, and by the same token, I favour the theories that speak to a cyclically recurrent Universe.

 

BTW, I no longer really see reincarnation as being at odds with the Judeo-Christian belief of an eternal afterlife in 'Heaven', as time is more or less a feature of the physical level of existence, and we may dwell in 'timeless' dimensions in between our earthly incarnations.

 

I believe that in each physical incarnation, our spirit or soul seeks particular experiences and pursues certain goals. Once we have achieved all that, we may indeed move on to other levels of existence for good. And as I see no indications that those are limited in number, there may be no limits set to our evolution as well.

 

Not that I would be in any kind of hurry to abandon physical existence though, as I find it rather enjoyable in so many ways - which is essentially the answer I gave to a Buddhist lecturer who objected to my self-determined spiritual path that it would require too many life-times.

 

I think that covers my view on the topic, in a nutshell... 

[dwai]

38 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Earlier Dwai- What if there was nothing other than your Self?

 

 

 

For the money ofcourse. 

I'd be bluffing, but seems to me,

if there was nothing other then mySelf,

then my bargaining power would be immense. 

I should be able to get whatever I demanded. 

Well...isn't it? Maybe it takes a bit longer, but my experience is that we eventually end up getting what we *really* want  

[thelerner]

Just now, dwai said:

Well...isn't it? Maybe it takes a bit longer, but my experience is that we eventually end up getting what we *really* want  

I hope so.

So far, so good with me,

but I don't trust the Universe,

further then i can throw it. 

[Marblehead]

7 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

The non-belief in an afterlife in general (including reincarnation) is characteristic of people that buy into the reductionist-materialistic view which is, by and large, a result of the so-called Age of Enlightenment. According to this view, mind is little more than a function of matter.

 

 

I stand accused of being that.  And worse still, I am proud of it.

 

[Marblehead]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

Well...isn't it? Maybe it takes a bit longer, but my experience is that we eventually end up getting what we *really* want  

And then, when we don't get what we want we still most times get what we need.

 

[dawei]

My first memory of the concept is from the 1975 movie, The Reincarnation of Peter Proud.   Makes me want to watch it again.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reincarnation_of_Peter_Proud